List Mgmt. Trade & Free Agency IV - hypotheticals etc. (Continued in Part V)

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citizen-erased

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I know what you're saying but the fact is, is that it's hard to attract a big FA and if you have a big fish FA like Kelly who nominates us then you pull the trigger.

If you take Dusty out of Richmond then they don't make the 8. I believe Kelly will have that sort of influence.
I would take Kelly this year if he nominated us in a heartbeat.
We would jump into the top 3 midfields with Heppell, Merrett, Kelly, Zaka and Parish running around in 2018.
And we'd plug that gap between Heppell and Merrett with another developed 22yo. Covering the lack of success we had from the 2010-12 drafts in terms of mids.

My only point was, as much as a gun mid is a need, our FF stocks are probably next on the list.
We 2 years, maybe 3, with Hooker occupying the spot.

Would love Tom Lynch, but he'd create a conundrum of Hooker v Lynch or Hooker v Hartley (if we were to stick Hooker at FB again).
And i don't know if our cap could support Heppell, Daniher, Hurley, Merrett, Kelly & Lynch as top earners. Not to mention Fantasia, McGrath and Parish as potential top earners.
 

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Milanista28

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Kelly trade...

Our 2017 1st and 2018 1st, We then swap our 2017 and 2018 2nds for their 2017, 2018 2nds.

Deal done on day one, Move on and start pre season. :p
 

Falcon27

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Can't believe fans willingness to put up Parish. This club has been a busted arse for years, and in recent years the club has been disepline at the the draft by bringing in quality players and people. Parish with Daniher, Zerrett, McGarth, Francis etc. are the future to build around and should be kept at all costs. Therefore if building a sustained culture of success is what it's about, Parish is worth more to EFC then Kelly ever will be.
 
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citizen-erased

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I agree on the Richmond one it's a risk worth taking because most of their A grade talent is mature so topping up now makes sense.

Saints for mine don't have enough talent and like us need to continue to add depth.
The saints rebuild really hasn't worked.
Steven's "elite" form has dropped off and Ross' work rate isn't enough.
Acres (who i really rate) has stagnated something shocking.
Then guys like Dunstan, Newnes, Sinclair, Stevens, Steele pad out a midfield that lacks dynamic and class.
McCartin has had some terrible luck, and its a shame he isn't developing the way Hogan is because they need it. Membrey & Bruce is not a great forward line to be making a charge with.

It may be worth their while trying to up the ante in the next few drafts and offer up a Billings while he's in red hot form and see what returns they get.

We've done well in recent years not to cock up the draft picks we've had.
2010-12 is ugly revisionist reading. 13-16 is like a happy ending.
 

citizen-erased

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Kelly trade...

Our 2017 1st and 2018 1st, We then swap our 2017 and 2018 2nds for their 2017, 2018 2nds.

Deal done on day one, Move on and start pre season. :p
good deal
Just change the last part.
Deal done on last day as a swoop in to crush the spirits of St Kilda, Carlton and North.
 

Killer_Mike

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The saints rebuild really hasn't worked.
Steven's "elite" form has dropped off and Ross' work rate isn't enough.
Acres (who i really rate) has stagnated something shocking.
Then guys like Dunstan, Newnes, Sinclair, Stevens, Steele pad out a midfield that lacks dynamic and class.
McCartin has had some terrible luck, and its a shame he isn't developing the way Hogan is because they need it. Membrey & Bruce is not a great forward line to be making a charge with.

It may be worth their while trying to up the ante in the next few drafts and offer up a Billings while he's in red hot form and see what returns they get.
The list they have is incredibly uneven but it still has potential.

I would be holding Billings and the other young talent and continue to build around that. If they draft well for the next couple of years I see know reason they can't build something. It's in these situations though that clubs start looking for quick fixes and start getting in B grade additions from other clubs to top up and then they never get anywhere.

We have been guilty of that for the last 15 years. That's why I'm happy that we have hit the draft hard the last few years and hope it remains that way.
 

Killer_Mike

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I'm talking about Hannebery, Parker, Rampe and all of the recycled guys they turned into premiership players over the years. There recruiting has always been A grade.
I'm not disputing they haven't drafted well.

What I'm saying is that the allowances they have been allowed are significant and that for me takes them out of the equation.

People get carried away with individual talent but the successful teams are the one's that have depth across the whole field. The fact that they can plug in A Grade players is a massive advantage.
 

TheGrizz

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I like to use Sydney as the example for the Buddy reason alone. They had Tippet, Cola, Buddy and then a swag of top 5 picks that the AFL calls the "Academy Players" and they still couldn't beat Hawthorn who used the draft method. Geelong also went the draft method.
Heeney joined the Swans at 12 years old and Mills did so at 13. They are not AFL called 'Academy players" they are genuine academy members that spent 5+ years being developed by the swans. Both have said they would have played Rugby if not for the academy.
It might be worth taking off your Victorian Tin Foil Hat, if we put 5+ years of development into a junior I would want first dibs as well.
 

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Killer_Mike

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Heeney joined the Swans at 12 years old and Mills did so at 13. They are not AFL called 'Academy players" they are genuine academy members that spent 5+ years being developed by the swans. Both have said they would have played Rugby if not for the academy.
It might be worth taking off your Victorian Tin Foil Hat, if we put 5+ years of development into a junior I would want first dibs as well.
It's about the competition being equal mate.

They are on track for 15 odd years of finals.
 

Caj

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I like to use Sydney as the example for the Buddy reason alone. They had Tippet, Cola, Buddy and then a swag of top 5 picks that the AFL calls the "Academy Players" and they still couldn't beat Hawthorn who used the draft method. Geelong also went the draft method.
Presumably you're talking Heeney and Mills as the "swag" of academy players, neither had been drafted when we played Hawthorn in the 2014 Grand Final
 

citizen-erased

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Tbh, if you have to pay two first rounders for the player, he's probs not worth it.
Kelly would be.
Take our current pick projection
Likely Pick 11 this year, maybe later next year (13 perhaps)

In drafts past, that's Charlie Curnow & SPP (best i can pick from last two drafts in that range)
Or, there is Josh Kelly - who is breaking games apart as a contested ball winner and goal kicking mid.

Big decision to weigh up.
the fact we are a mostly young team on the cusp of the 8 and our best is looking good enough to beat most teams, adding an elite game winning mid outweighs the two picks for me.
Esp given the little rebuild we've done.
Mutch, Langford, Clarke, Begley, Francis, Ridley, Redman are all providing depth.
Jobe retires and Kelly comes in.
Our depth remains without losing too much.

If Kelly nominates us, i'd say give up the picks.

Merrett, Kelly, Heppell, Zaka, Parish is a formidable starting midfield.
And given we have a solid backline and efficient forward line, we'd take a big step forward towards a run of flags (let alone one)
 

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Presumably you're talking Heeney and Mills as the "swag" of academy players, neither had been drafted when we played Hawthorn in the 2014 Grand Final
Come on mate. They had COLA then.

They change one type of concession to another right before your eyes.

Stupidest magic trick I have ever seen.
 

Killer_Mike

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We actually won the flag in 2012 before we got Tippet and Buddy, make of that what you will
You make of it what you will.

You get to maintain your list.

Other clubs didn't get that concession which is what makes the competition uneven. It's been spoken about thousands of times over the years do you still want to argue the point on it?

*2012 Premiers
 

TheGrizz

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It's about the competition being equal mate.

They are on track for 15 odd years of finals.
Sorry mate, that is a load of Bull*** Victorian bias. You have been complaining the last couple of pages about the leg up they are getting, that is just a load of rubbish. I dont have any real feeling for or against Sydney, but this "The AFL loves them" trash comes straight from the Eddie Maguire School of VFL Traditionalists.

They have a good looking future because they are one of the best drafters in the league.
They had 8 (EIGHT!!!) Rookie selections playing in their grand Final side last year, with another couple playing in their side at the moment. In comparison they had only 6 First round picks (including Franklin and the Academy players). That isnt a leg up, that is quality list management.

They had COLA stripped, so thats no longer an advantage, and they were even arbitrarily banned from trading because they used it, even though the AFL gave it to them. That's like giving a toddler a toy then punishing him for playing with it.
You think the AFL wanted them to get Buddy? well the abusive phone call from Fitzpatrick to Richard Colless says the opposite, so does the trading ban.

And the academy crap? they have had 2 - TWO! first round picks that have come from the academy in 7 years (at over $8 million pumped into it) and dont look like having another one for a while. Would you says $4 million a draft pick is money well spent or a leg up?. Northenr states struggle with player retention way more than Victorian states, so what if they get first dibs on two guys who are good players yes, but unlikely to leave them for Victorian clubs (like ours). No one cares about the academies when the swans are spending money and getting little results, but when it works? HOW DARE THOSE NSW SCUM GET FIRST DIBS!?!?!?!

This isnt just you, Victorian club fans sprout this crap regularly. Sydney is not the AFL's golden child at all. They made Sydney fulfil the ANZ stadium quota despite the SWans desperately wanting to play at the SCG (and not making GWS play there - talk about AFL darlings).
The Swans are a good team because they draft well and have a great culture that players buy into, not because the AFL give them a leg up, its actually, at least in the last 10 years, the opposite.
 

Killer_Mike

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Sorry mate, that is a load of Bull*** Victorian bias. You have been complaining the last couple of pages about the leg up they are getting, that is just a load of rubbish. I dont have any real feeling for or against Sydney, but this "The AFL loves them" trash comes straight from the Eddie Maguire School of VFL Traditionalists.

They have a good looking future because they are one of the best drafters in the league.
They had 8 (EIGHT!!!) Rookie selections playing in their grand Final side last year, with another couple playing in their side at the moment. In comparison they had only 6 First round picks (including Franklin and the Academy players). That isnt a leg up, that is quality list management.

They had COLA stripped, so thats no longer an advantage, and they were even arbitrarily banned from trading because they used it, even though the AFL gave it to them. That's like giving a toddler a toy then punishing him for playing with it.
You think the AFL wanted them to get Buddy? well the abusive phone call from Fitzpatrick to Richard Colless says the opposite, so does the trading ban.

And the academy crap? they have had 2 - TWO! first round picks that have come from the academy in 7 years (at over $8 million pumped into it) and dont look like having another one for a while. Would you says $4 million a draft pick is money well spent or a leg up?. Northenr states struggle with player retention way more than Victorian states, so what if they get first dibs on two guys who are good players yes, but unlikely to leave them for Victorian clubs (like ours). No one cares about the academies when the swans are spending money and getting little results, but when it works? HOW DARE THOSE NSW SCUM GET FIRST DIBS!?!?!?!

This isnt just you, Victorian club fans sprout this crap regularly. Sydney is not the AFL's golden child at all. They made Sydney fulfil the ANZ stadium quota despite the SWans desperately wanting to play at the SCG (and not making GWS play there - talk about AFL darlings).
The Swans are a good team because they draft well and have a great culture that players buy into, not because the AFL give them a leg up, its actually, at least in the last 10 years, the opposite.
If you are going to come at me with facts at least make them accurate.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...millions-in-aid-from-afl-20150228-13rqwm.html

"The Sydney Swans announced a profit of about $846,000 but received about $12 million in AFL funding, higher than many clubs including the likes of Collingwood, Essendon and Hawthorn."

It doesn't change the fact that competition is uneven.
 

BrunoV

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7 & 8 would probably be the biggest deal ever done? Maybe Judd is the leader (Kennedy the best fwd in the comp, plus picks 3 and 20)

Saints need flair and star power. They are a very vanilla side and are missing the guns to really threaten anyone (i.e. there is no one to tag at the Saints).
Kelly is that. Ready to go, proven at AFL level.
Picks 7 & 8 could be two of them. I don't know this years crop very well, so i can't comment. But if it was last years draft, there is no way I'd be giving up 2x top 10 picks for Kelly.

St Kilda is uniquely placed to be able to benefit from the deal and not really have to give anything up for it (given that the second first round pick they have is a freebie).

The only reason I'd hesitate is McCartin. So much of their planning would be based on him being a gun which is a long way off at the moment.

Either decision would be perfectly justifiable. I'd lean towards doing the trade and backing McCartin.
 

BrunoV

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Sorry mate, that is a load of Bull*** Victorian bias. You have been complaining the last couple of pages about the leg up they are getting, that is just a load of rubbish. I dont have any real feeling for or against Sydney, but this "The AFL loves them" trash comes straight from the Eddie Maguire School of VFL Traditionalists.

They have a good looking future because they are one of the best drafters in the league.
They had 8 (EIGHT!!!) Rookie selections playing in their grand Final side last year, with another couple playing in their side at the moment. In comparison they had only 6 First round picks (including Franklin and the Academy players). That isnt a leg up, that is quality list management.

They had COLA stripped, so thats no longer an advantage, and they were even arbitrarily banned from trading because they used it, even though the AFL gave it to them. That's like giving a toddler a toy then punishing him for playing with it.
You think the AFL wanted them to get Buddy? well the abusive phone call from Fitzpatrick to Richard Colless says the opposite, so does the trading ban.

And the academy crap? they have had 2 - TWO! first round picks that have come from the academy in 7 years (at over $8 million pumped into it) and dont look like having another one for a while. Would you says $4 million a draft pick is money well spent or a leg up?. Northenr states struggle with player retention way more than Victorian states, so what if they get first dibs on two guys who are good players yes, but unlikely to leave them for Victorian clubs (like ours). No one cares about the academies when the swans are spending money and getting little results, but when it works? HOW DARE THOSE NSW SCUM GET FIRST DIBS!?!?!?!

This isnt just you, Victorian club fans sprout this crap regularly. Sydney is not the AFL's golden child at all. They made Sydney fulfil the ANZ stadium quota despite the SWans desperately wanting to play at the SCG (and not making GWS play there - talk about AFL darlings).
The Swans are a good team because they draft well and have a great culture that players buy into, not because the AFL give them a leg up, its actually, at least in the last 10 years, the opposite.


Spot on.

I think that their Academy will become a problem because rugby skills convert to AFL much more than is commonly accepted and it's only a matter of time before this pathway can be properly established.

But if they can convert non-AFL talent good luck to them, at least they're not pillaging football heartland without contributing even a moment to the development of players they take.

Adelaide and Sydney have by a very long way the best talent identification and development teams in the AFL.
 

ant555

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It's about the competition being equal mate.

They are on track for 15 odd years of finals.
I am in favour of the academy system other than the Southern NSW area being part of it. It is a very good system to develop the game in NSW and Qld.
However there does need to be something to even up the ledger a little.

This is where i see the VFL/SANFL/WAFL could come into play with all bar a couple teams fielding their own sides which will possibly change not far into the future. If all sides end up fielding their own side then there is a chance to develop an academy type system through the VFL and having first access on players that are on your VFL list . The same bidding system could be used.
 
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