Recruiting AFL Trade & Free Agency IX

[Lore]

Spoiler: 2021 Key Dates

AFL TRADE, DRAFT AND FREE AGENCY DATES 2021

Grand Final
Saturday September 25

Draft Combine – Vic Country
Friday October 1

Restricted and Unrestricted Free Agency Window
Friday October 1 – Friday October 8

Delisted Free Agency Window 1
Wednesday October 3 - Monday October 15

Trade Period (picks and players)
Monday October 4 (9am) – Wednesday October 13 (7.30pm)

Draft Combines (States and Regions)
VM: Saturday October 9 (tbc)
Qld: Sunday October 10
Tas: Monday October 11
SA: Saturday October 16
WA: Sunday October 17
NSW&ACT: tbc
NT: will join SA or Qld

Trade Period (picks only)
Monday October 18 – Monday November 15

List Lodgement 1
Friday October 29

Delisted Free Agency Window 1
Wednesday November 3 (9am) – Tuesday November 9 (5pm)

List Lodgement 2 (Final date for primary list delistings)
Wednesday November 10 (2pm)

Delisted Free Agency Window 2
Thursday November 11 (9am) – Monday November 15 (5pm)

Draft Nominations Due
Wednesday November 17 (3pm)

Pre-Season Commences (First to fourth year players)
Monday November 22

National Draft
Round 1: Wednesday November 24 (7pm)
Round 2–end: Thursday November 25 (7pm)

Rookie Upgrade Period
Thursday November 25 (10pm) - Thursday November 25 (11pm)

Delisted Free Agency Window 3
Thursday November 25 (10pm) - Thursday November 25 (11pm)

Pre-Selected Rookie Nominations Due (Includes Academy, Father/Son)
Friday November 26 (12pm) - Friday November 26 (12.30pm)

Preseason Draft
Friday November 26 (3pm)

Pre-Selected Rookie Notification
Friday November 26 (3.15pm)

Rookie Draft
Friday November 26 (3.20pm)

Final List Lodgement
Monday November 29 (4pm)

Pre-Season Commences (All other players)
Monday December 6

Pre-Season Supplemental Selection Period (SSP)
December - March (tbc)

Current Contract Status
2021 Draft Watch
Father/Son and NGA
Adrian Dodoro

 

[Lore]

But Dunkley's situation is exactly like Kelly's. Bulldogs also said they weren't going to trade.

Clubs say that about their contracted players in general.

Daniher, Dunkley, Gibbs, Papley, Kelly, McCarthy, Lobb. Those are just the ones we know about…

Then there’s all the contracted ones who do move, or who are put up for sale and no one wants, or who are put up for sale and then when the offers aren’t high enough, are retained…

 

[BrunoV]

McCartney moved the goalposts on the Shiel deal late once they'd got Scully and Lobb off the books. Salary cap issues were the original reason GwS were happy to let Shiel seek a trade. 1st and future 2nd was getting it done. Later it became 2 x 1sts with a 2nd going back. There was already bad blood from Stringer. McCartney used his trump card, Shiel was contracted.

How was the deal going to get done when GWS was manoeuvring to ease it's salary cap pressure with other players?

That's not changing the goal posts. That's being outmanoeuvred. If there was an agreement 1st and 2nd round pick would get the deal done, why wasn't the deal done?

I'll stand corrected if someone can cite confirmation of an in principle agreement that GWS would accept a 1st and 2nd round pick.

 

[Bjchan13]

Listening to the Melbourne list manager talk about Luke Dunstan and the value in brining him to the club, makes me think they are recruiting for a completely different sport to what Essendon are recruiting for.

We slept on that one. At very worst he was solid depth. We were on record as being interested and never ruled him out but seems we were too slow to commit.

 

[BrunoV]

Mate you literally wrote you wouldn't believe the Hill contacted us story without seeing the digital records.

It's not a leap of faith. It's an analysis based on a number of known facts stated in the post.

I could be wrong but it's not an unreasoned leap of faith.

Unreasoned leaps of faith are when you just accept whatever is leaked to the media regardless of whether is it supported by known facts. McCartney moving the goal posts on the Shiel trade, for example. Again, if I've missed the confirmation of an in principle agreement about Shiel's value then I will be made to look like a dick.

Look at the scenario. We can infer without any difficulty that the Giants rated Shiel as a high value asset and that for a host of reasons he was the one they were prepared to trade to realise that value (likely because he also wanted to return home). We know that GWS continued to look for ways to ease its cap pressure while dealing with us. If GWS had no other way to free cap space the deal would likely have ended up a steal but that didn't happen. Dodoro's contingency was to walk away from the deal. Did he explain that to Shiel when he convinced him to come? I would say he pretty clearly didn't. GWS did not change the goal posts, they did what any ration player would do, they continued to look for ways to maximise the value of trading Shiel.

 

[Lore]

Unreasoned leaps of faith are when you just accept whatever is leaked to the media regardless of whether is it supported by known facts.

I think the inverse of that is known as confirmation bias. Only accepting things as fact if they fit within your pre-existing worldview.

 

[owen87]

It's not a leap of faith. It's an analysis based on a number of known facts stated in the post.

So it's a leap of faith.

1+1=3

he pretty clearly didn't

How would you possibly know this? It's another leap of faith.

GWS did not change the goal posts

Except you even said they did;

We know that GWS continued to look for ways to ease its cap pressure while dealing with us

Lore nailed it.

 

[BrunoV]

I think the inverse of that is known as confirmation bias. Only accepting things as fact if they fit within your pre-existing worldview.

I know this seems like an argument but it not.

The facts I rely on are not even in dispute. That we have his cousins on the list is given is a reason for him sending us a text which supposedly started all of this. Is there any serious dispute about Dodoro's focus on recruiting fans and family connections? We also know that clubs are not supposed to contact contracted players.

While it's not a fact, we can probably accept that it will not help us dealing with GWS, where there is tension, if it became know that we started this.

It's a balancing of the knowing facts and other circumstances. It may well be wrong, I accept that.

 

[BrunoV]

So it's a leap of faith.

1+1=3



How would you possibly know this? It's another leap of faith.



Except you even said they did;



Lore nailed it.

This is where it ends for me. You're arguing against reasoned conclusions, which, for the 3rd time, I accept could be wrong, with nothing more than assertions to the contrary.

I think the context for the line about Shiel is pretty clear. Do you really think he would have chosen us instead of Carlton if we told him that we'd walk away from the trade at the limit we set? I doubt that was part of the discussion. Mind you, I also doubt Carlton had that discussion with him.

'Moving the goal posts' is a mischaracterisation which implies GWS misled us about some aspect of the trade. What information do you have that confirms we were misled? Not outmanoeuvred but actually misled? All we know if that GWS allowed Sheil to explore his options to ease cap pressure (and because he was the player who was the best option to trade).

 

[mitch-wa]

Have we won trade period yet?

 

[owen87]

This is where it ends for me. You're arguing against reasoned conclusions, which, for the 3rd time, I accept could be wrong, with nothing more than assertions to the contrary.

I think the context for the line about Shiel is pretty clear. Do you really think he would have chosen us instead of Carlton if we told him that we'd walk away from the trade at the limit we set? I doubt that was part of the discussion. Mind you, I also doubt Carlton had that discussion with him.

'Moving the goal posts' is a mischaracterisation which implies GWS misled us about some aspect of the trade. What information do you have that confirms we were misled? Not outmanoeuvred but actually misled? All we know if that GWS allowed Sheil to explore his options to ease cap pressure (and because he was the player who was the best option to trade).

It's a leap to a conclusion, that fits your pre-existing position.

You say you 'accept you could be wrong' but you're not actually open to any other position.

There's nothing to argue, because you're not open to any outcome that isn't 'Dodoro bad'.

You've done the exact same thing with the Hill scenario, and your bar for evidence is beyond a reasonable standard, despite it already being at odds with the version of the story reported by every AFL media outlet, and none reporting a contradictory version.

 

[JT_the_Man]

So, any trade news?

Fwiw I’m now comfortable with getting Hill for a second, if we don’t that’s fine as well.

 

[fairbump_playon]

Bruno does present opinions with iron clad confidence. That doesn't make them fact.

But isn't it more interesting to agree with or argue against his point than it is to challenge his style?

 

[Bjchan13]

How was the deal going to get done when GWS was manoeuvring to ease it's salary cap pressure with other players?

That's not changing the goal posts. That's being outmanoeuvred. If there was an agreement 1st and 2nd round pick would get the deal done, why wasn't the deal done?

I'll stand corrected if someone can cite confirmation of an in principle agreement that GWS would accept a 1st and 2nd round pick.

I agree with you, Dodoro was outmanoeuvred. McCartney had the upper hand the whole time due to Shiel being contracted. Once Lobb and Scully were off the books he was in complete control. To the point where late in the piece GWS actually said they'd prefer to keep Shiel. Thats where the goalposts were moved. GWS went from happy to let you seek a trade to no we actually want to keep you and you're contracted.

I dont think there was an in principle agreement. Pick 9 from us was the obvious cornerstone with the rest to be worked out during the trade period. Carlton had pick 1 and were never giving that up. Hawthorn had a late 1st which ended up at 18 so maybe they were willing to do that and a future 1st. We had the best picks available to do a deal and GWS took full advantage.

I also agree with your stance on tapping up contracted players. I think there's smarter ways to improve your list.

 

[JayJ20]

Clubs say that about their contracted players in general.

Daniher, Dunkley, Gibbs, Papley, Kelly, McCarthy, Lobb. Those are just the ones we know about…

Then there’s all the contracted ones who do move, or who are put up for sale and no one wants, or who are put up for sale and then when the offers aren’t high enough, are retained…

Yeah generally speaking. While Dodoro has his faults (eg dragging things out until the last day or starting with outrageous offers/demands, I don't think he was unreasonable last year. Dunkley himself publicly stated that he didn't see it that way either. I'm pretty sure his manager also said that Bulldogs made it difficult for the trade to happen.

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

Dodo at 7:29pm tonight.

 

[owen87]

So, any trade news?

Fwiw I’m now comfortable with getting Hill for a second, if we don’t that’s fine as well.

No trades until midday, might get something to talk about after that.

Barrett reported he thinks the Hill trade will get done, FWIW.

 

[Lore]

I know this seems like an argument but it not.

The facts I rely on are not even in dispute. That we have his cousins on the list is given is a reason for him sending us a text which supposedly started all of this. Is there any serious dispute about Dodoro's focus on recruiting fans and family connections? We also know that clubs are not supposed to contact contracted players.

While it's not a fact, we can probably accept that it will not help us dealing with GWS, where there is tension, if it became know that we started this.

It's a balancing of the knowing facts and other circumstances. It may well be wrong, I accept that.

Er no, that's not what the articles have said. It's you putting two and two together, which may equal 4 but it could also be 5 or 11 at this stage.

This is the original article, the full section about Hill from McGowan's reporting on Sunday:

Greater Western Sydney forward Bobby Hill contacted Essendon last month about making a fresh start in red and black next season.

Hill, 21, personally reached out to the Bombers in the days after Melbourne won a drought-breaking premiership with a text message saying he wanted to play in red and black next season.

In particular, Hill was attracted to the proud indigenous culture at Essendon and wants to move to Melbourne where there is more family support for his pregnant partner.

But a deal remained a long way off on Monday night as Essendon was pragmatic about its approach to a trade considering Hill was the one who was pushing it from the outset.

While Essendon has earmarked a third-round pick from either this year’s draft (51) or next year’s draft to clinch a deal for Hill, the Bombers could walk away if they are asked to stump up more.

Essendon is adamant it will not part with its top pick (11) for the electric forward and is instead open to splitting that selection for two decent calls on a pair of talented teens from this year’s draft.

Collingwood has also shown interest in Hill and would be willing to advance talks with the Giants about a deal.

But Hill remains committed to joining Essendon and has not given up on hopes that a trade can be struck.

Hill has some brilliant offensive gifts and would add some top-line speed, polish and goal kicking nous next to Anthony McDonald-Tipungwuti in the Bombers’ forward half.

Preliminary talks between GWS Giants football boss and Essendon list chief Adrian Dodoro began on Sunday only one year after the pair thrashed out a tough negotiation for midfielder Jye Caldwell.

But the official trade request only hit the Giants last week in a move that has left unimpressed GWS chiefs strongly considering holding the electric forward to his contract for next year.

The Giants have made clear they will be prepared to keep Hill at the club next season against his wishes in the same vein Geelong held Tim Kelly to his contract in 2019.

The Giants are even more inclined to shut down Hill’s trade request to Tullamarine after Hawthorn star Chad Wingard turned down the Giants’ offer to head north.

GWS identified Wingard as a quality replacement option for Hill in the Giants’ forward half, but the star Hawks’ goal kicker opted to remain at Waverley.

In any case, the Giants want a better pick than Essendon’s third-round draft selection to green light Hill’s move to Tullamarine.

It has led to speculation a future second-round pick would be a fairer deal for Hill, a 30-gamer who averaged nine possessions a game across 17 matches this year.

But Hill, who was also rated above average for score assists and tackles (2.8) a game, certainly fits the bill for the Bombers in their hunt for a speedy small forward.

Hill wants to move to Melbourne where two of his cousins, Bradley (who plays for St Kilda) and Courtney (who plays for Essendon’s VFLW team) live.

Essendon has had talks with former Tiger and Crow Tyson Stengle who, as News Corp reported last week, wants to continue his career at Geelong next season.

The Giants bid for Fremantle’s Rory Lobb is also over barring an unforeseen change of events after the two clubs failed to reach any common ground in talks for the ruck-forward.

GWS has initially indicated it would be prepared to part with a future second-round pick for Lobb who started his career at GWS before heading to Fremantle for the 2019 season.

But the Dockers wanted a better pick in the deal and were unwilling to pay any of the Docker’s $700,000 a year salary at GWS Giants next season, meaning the deal fell over.

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Others tend to assert that Brad Hill is the one that convinced him to move to Melbourne and offered for him to stay with Brad while he finds his feet, and then spend a while wondering why he chose Essendon.

Bobby was actually drafted to GWS with Jye Caldwell at the end of 2018, so at this stage that's probably a more likely connection if he wanted to join Essendon's AFL team.

 

[owen87]

But isn't it more interesting to agree with or argue against his point than it is to challenge his style?

It's impossible to have any debate with someone who's not open to different outcomes.

I should know.

 

[brutus76]

Let's go Dodo and the Magic Technicolor Jacket.

Hill and a F4 for a F2 I'm ok with. F2 outright is overs

 

[Alfred E Neuman]

Is there any point in arguing with people?

We like to believe that we move forward through a clash of ideas. We argue, and then we reach consensus. I’m not sure the evidence supports that ideal.

www.theage.com.au

 

[iDon]

Bobby Hill just not worth grabbing I feel. Pay overs for a bit part player that could be terrible or string a few flashy games together that make us feel like we have done the right thing but ultimately he ends up plodding along for 3 years taking our cash.

 

[cAsEy_18]

I've stated a few times that I don't rate Hill. And am not phased if we get him.
But him for a F2 "probably" doesnt matter too much, if we get a future something thrown back in.
That pick is very likely to be swallowed up by the Davey's.

I think regardless of this trade or not, there's a fairly likely outcome where next years draft we walk away with our 1st pick + the Davey's (Hopefully our 1st pick not required for any matching).

 

[bomberman500]

Geelong and Freo haggling over picks 19 or 22 in the Clark deal

High price for someone who they wont give much game time to

 

[Lore]

Geelong and Freo haggling over picks 19 or 22 in the Clark deal

High price for someone who they wont give much game time to

Pick 19 is stupidly OP atm. It's treated as way more valuable than any other pick between 15 and 25.

 

[bomberman500]

Adelaide director Mark Ricciuto

Mark Ricciuto

Age

48

Ht

184cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.1

5star

K

12.8

5star

HB

8.3

5star

M

4.4

4star

T

1.7

4star

G

0.9

4star

No current season stats available

D

16.2

4star

K

9.6

4star

HB

6.6

4star

M

2.8

3star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.2

3star

thinks the Power will want the first-round draft pick tied to Melbourne that Sydney is set to receive for Jordan Dawson

12

Jordan Dawson

Age

27

Ht

191cm

Wt

91kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.0

4star

K

11.4

4star

HB

5.7

4star

M

4.8

5star

T

2.8

4star

CL

0.6

3star

D

15.7

4star

K

10.9

4star

HB

4.9

3star

M

2.9

3star

T

2.0

3star

CL

0.4

3star

D

11.8

3star

K

7.8

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

5.0

5star

T

3.0

5star

CL

0.6

3star

in a trade for Peter Ladhams

19

Peter Ladhams

Age

26

Ht

204cm

Wt

103kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.7

4star

K

6.8

3star

HB

8.8

5star

CL

3.3

5star

HO

15.0

5star

D

21.0

5star

K

9.0

4star

HB

12.0

5star

CL

4.0

5star

HO

16.0

5star

D

14.6

4star

K

6.4

3star

HB

8.2

5star

CL

3.2

5star

HO

14.8

5star

.
- Didn't Port tell Ladhams to explore his opportunities?? Can't imagine too many players told to look elswhere are worth a 1st rounder
**edit** - Ladhams wanted to seek better opportunities

AFL journalist Damian Barrett believes Hawthorn will trade one of its stars by the Wednesday 7:30pm (AEDT) trade deadline.
- If any I reckon it will be Port looking to top up for a flag tilt