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List Mgmt. Trade Hypotheticals (opposition posters post here)
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Bokonon
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Maybe the Crows second round we hold. It's a high price but he would be good for us. If you factor in in around 5 years playing time barring injury. Plenty of time developing in your system a plus. Barrett's weakest point his disposal by foot, but he would add grunt and he tackles and runs hard. Your coaches have a track record developing kicking skills.
Ahh. You *do* think we are an early Fremantle.
You are asking for Dangerfield/Treloar levels of draft compensation for a not particularly good small forward.
And - at the same time - you're asking us to * over our salary cap so we cannot give the money that Hopper, Steele and Lobb deserve.
GAGF.
- Oct 6, 2013
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Your team will be contenders for the next 5 years. Bruest will be kicking 50+ goals for you guys. Bruest has no problems with injuries in the past.
You need a quality small forward. We need currency to get quality young mids. We also get a young mid to develop under Clarko.
Bokonon
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Works for me too. Probably best to give my fellow giants supporters a chance to comment.
2016 Stats for Season 2016
15 Games 16
12.6 Kicks Per Game 9.2
9.5 Handballs Per Game 6.6
22.1 Disposals Per Game 15.8
4.7 Marks Per Game 3.3
2.0 Goals Per Game 2.1
1.2 Behinds Per Game 1.2
3.9 Tackles Per Game 4.1
0.3 Hitouts Per Game 0.2
5.7 Inside 50s Per Game 2.8
1.1 Goal Assists Per Game 0.6
1.0 Frees For Per Game 1.0
2.1 Frees Against Per Game 1.1
7.8 Contested Possessions Per Game 8.1
14.5 Uncontested Possessions Per Game 7.9
14.7 Effective Disposals Per Game 9.8
66.5% Effective Disposals % Per Game 62%
4.8 Clangers Per Game 2.6
0.5 Contested Marks Per Game 0.4
1.1 Marks Inside 50 Per Game 1.4
1.7 Clearances Per Game 1.9
0.4 Rebound 50s Per Game 0.6
0.9 One Percenters Per Game 0.9
0.3 Bounces Per Game 0.2
82.1 Time On Ground % Per Game 81.1
One of those players is Bruest. The other one already plays for the Giants.
Anyone thinking our best first round pick *and* extras *and* enough cap room to re-sign Lobb needs their head examined.
- Oct 6, 2013
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Indeed it is. Basically, you're proposing we * over not only our draft but also our salary cap by overpaying on both for a second Toby Greene.
And for those of you following at home, yes, Bruest does have a worse disposal percentage than Toby Greene.
And for those of you following at home, yes, Bruest does have a worse disposal percentage than Toby Greene.
Bokonon
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Bit harsh I would have thought. Possible to disagree without suggesting people are mentally ill. Teams play with more than one small forward. Bruest is a real talent and our list manager has said small forwards and defensive pressure forward is an area we are looking to develop. Makes sense from what I see. I've never suggested we give up Lobb for him, and their are obviously a lot of variables in that assumption.
Toby plays a different role with a lot of time in our mid rotation
No, you're proposing we give up the cap room we'd need to re-sign Lobb.
Our friendly neighbourhood Hawthorn supporter, who clearly thinks we are Fremantle, is proposing they pay none of Bruests salary, and a decent guess is he'd want 500k or so to move.
Thats cap room we cant use on Steele, Hopper or Lobb, who are our biggest re-signing needs.
The deal you're putting forward is the sort of panic move that bad clubs do. They overpay for second-rank players from premiership clubs - I mean, Bruest isnt even the second-best small forward at Hawthorn - both Rioli and Puopolo are better.
Bokonon
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I dont agree at all. Bruest is a class act and neither Rioli nor Puopolo were suggested. I'd be ok with either but would prefer Bruest. Certainly over Rioli given where he is at in his career. Would be interested to hear other views at this point
I
It is all good and well to think that everything homegrown is golden but the reality is regardless of the raw talent we have we still have gaps and need to fill those gaps with experience and class.
At the end of this year I foresee us losing the likes of Tomlinson, WHE, Stewart, Marchbank, Palmer, McCarthy and possibly Steele. That is a significant loss of talent and games and a few of them are on big deals.
We need to get numbers and cap down, if a small forward is available that will improve our team we will get him and he wont cost us a Lobb he will cost Stevie J a second season which is fine because he will then coach the small forward!
No matter what happens if Rory wants to stay with us he will have to accept unders because we will not get near the 800K he will be offered to leave.
It is all good and well to think that everything homegrown is golden but the reality is regardless of the raw talent we have we still have gaps and need to fill those gaps with experience and class.
At the end of this year I foresee us losing the likes of Tomlinson, WHE, Stewart, Marchbank, Palmer, McCarthy and possibly Steele. That is a significant loss of talent and games and a few of them are on big deals.
We need to get numbers and cap down, if a small forward is available that will improve our team we will get him and he wont cost us a Lobb he will cost Stevie J a second season which is fine because he will then coach the small forward!
No matter what happens if Rory wants to stay with us he will have to accept unders because we will not get near the 800K he will be offered to leave.
Bokonon
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I shudder at the thought of losing Lobb though, cant argue with your logic
I think he will stay as even though most of the WA boys want to get back home we did give him his chance and he has previously re-signed so he likes the joint. He's getting opportunities and is playing for a flag contender. The two WA teams are years away from contending, Freo are just starting their rebuild, West Coast are blissfully unaware that they aren't good enough and are 2 years away from starting their next!
He is a likely 2 year re-signing I reckon. That way he doesn't cost himself too much money and can keep options open for later.
Apart from McCarthy and Tunbridge what other WA boy has demanded a return home? Cogs hasn't, Wilson hasn't, Pickett hasn't, Palmer hasn't and so far Lobb hasn't either. I struggling to see where "most" comes into this.
- Nov 23, 2015
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As posted in the List Management thread, I was a little surprised to see a 'defensive small forward' singled out as the one thing GWS was looking for. As with the discussion on Walters (i.e. in a trade for McCarthy), and Ian W's post above comparing Toby Greene with Luke Bruest, Toby has been really solid in that role for us this year, both scoring goals and applying tackles. Plus he has ability to move into the midfield if required. Walters or Breust would both be good additions, each would bring a slightly different skillset. Breust's tackling and overall defensive skills are probably more in line with Craig Cameron's comment of a 'defensive forward' IMO ... and of course he's from NSW originally, so probably a more likely target. The issue is what he costs, in terms of $, and players displaced. We need to consider what happens with Smith, Greene, Pickett, potentially Spargo long term; and of course I reckon Stevie J will go around again next year.
So, I'd be surprised if we were after him this year, with Stevie J in the list and with a year to go on his contract - that is, we'd have to overpay to crowbar him out. Next year, OOC and perhaps (!) Hawthorn see the need to replace Hodge, Mitchell etc a more reasonable trade could be found. Ultimately, as Ian W said, if we paid 2 first rounders and a player and put a major dent in our SC, we've done ourselves a disservice. One first round pick plus a reasonable player who wanted to leave anyway (if you did look at this year, then Marchbank or Steele for example would seem to fit Hawks' needs) to me should get a trade done if players were amenable.
In summary, I like Luke Breust as a player and think he would add to our team's forward line. After Stevie J leaves he would be an 'older head' with a few more serviceable years. (26 next year, 27 the year after so probably about 6 years left.) Think Jezza-General-Lobb-Breust-Smith-Greene, with a forward-mid bench player out of Pickett, Kennedy, Spargo & Pickett. The point for the club to consider is whether that medium term return is worth any fallout in the longer term - i.e. does it cost us Pickett or someone else in the cap?
So, I'd be surprised if we were after him this year, with Stevie J in the list and with a year to go on his contract - that is, we'd have to overpay to crowbar him out. Next year, OOC and perhaps (!) Hawthorn see the need to replace Hodge, Mitchell etc a more reasonable trade could be found. Ultimately, as Ian W said, if we paid 2 first rounders and a player and put a major dent in our SC, we've done ourselves a disservice. One first round pick plus a reasonable player who wanted to leave anyway (if you did look at this year, then Marchbank or Steele for example would seem to fit Hawks' needs) to me should get a trade done if players were amenable.
In summary, I like Luke Breust as a player and think he would add to our team's forward line. After Stevie J leaves he would be an 'older head' with a few more serviceable years. (26 next year, 27 the year after so probably about 6 years left.) Think Jezza-General-Lobb-Breust-Smith-Greene, with a forward-mid bench player out of Pickett, Kennedy, Spargo & Pickett. The point for the club to consider is whether that medium term return is worth any fallout in the longer term - i.e. does it cost us Pickett or someone else in the cap?
What a great name for a law firm
(even having Pickett twice - which is fine - because he is That Damned Good!)
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You guys could always get a ready made forward through the draft via a trade. Its not like this years draft is absent of those players.
Ainsworth comes to mind, would be cheap in terms of cap and solid enough with plenty of years ahead supporting also the development region picks you pick up and develop this year to help grow the dynasty.
For mine that would be a smarter option for GWS.
Not sure what RFC are doing naturally but RFC could trade away its first for a combination of GWS players releaving GWS cap space as well. Cannot see why we would not be interested in Tomlinson and WHE for starters based on potential even though they have not reached the desired heights atm as part of some kind of package play. RFC lacks height and KPP support in some areas on those players could assist naturally and get plenty of opportunities
Without going overboard I think its fair to say Ainsworth is a massive upgrade on Palmer for starters.
Thinking about the development of your list an Ainsworth type provides support for the likes of Smith who I assume you want to keep, allows him to shift into the midfield more possibly as well as Toby and frankly gives a bit more scope to the likes of other players like Pickett and others develop so GWS can maximise their potential.
I think getting Breust now becomes a bit more of an obstacle for other players on your list, you can get Breust later via FA and frankly Hawthorn are starting to tail off. The other thing GWS might have to worry about is whether Breust best is past him and assuming we are not talking about absolute elite, how long can he keep it going into the GWS journey before he declines like most players do? Getting Breust later via FA possibly also allows GWS assess its youngsters like Pickett and so forth and gives the club more flexibility to shape its list and development so it can make better decisions later such as whether to get Breust or not because GWS later will have a better idea how its younger prospects are improving and tracking with the vision GWS is setting!
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Bokonon
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I know you've previously posted some inside info, does it suggest Pickett wants to stay? I hope he does every WA poster U've seen seems to want him home.
Not speaking from a GWS perspective. Historically the higher profile WA boys have tended to want to get home. It's just tyrany of distance from family and friends.
- Nov 23, 2015
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Yes and no. Yes I think that Ainsworth is a good little player, and could be one of the best from this year's draft. Yes, again, in that he is likely to be an upgrade on Palmer.
The bit(s) that I would say 'no' to are threefold:
(1) he doesn't give us that greater experience that would assist our forward line - look how Stevie J has really helped us this year, and while he hasn't sorted out every problem, we're scoring goals through a nice mixture of talls and smalls - which I could see someone like Breust continuing, but not Ainsworth
(2) he's another young player jostling for a start in our talented lineup, but as he's not a local I could see it more likely he'll leave in the near future, making anything we pay for him a waste; I'd also add that while he's very highly rated, unless draft rules change GWS is likely to look at Charlie Spargo next year who also has pretty solid reputation
(3) while I have no issue with the deal that you've proposed - while it's just a general proposal, it's no worse and probably better than other clubs' BF posters have proposed here & on their own boards - the problem is actually getting to use a live pick for a non-academy kid. (Clubs above any pick we have are likely to bid on an academy kid before our bid, to ensure we can't use a live bid. I can certainly see Essendon if they hold #2 and Freo doing that. So to get Ainsworth we'd have to do whatever trade is required and likely sacrifice someone like Perryman to get Ainsworth - with the risk that after all that he leaves in a few years time. If the RFC and Pies' picks are close, it might be possible to retain a live pick, but not certain. So, I'd actually prefer to just trade for an experienced player like Breust to be honest. Wouldn't stop me doing your proposed RFC trade and then on-selling that pick to someone else for more points though.)
- Nov 23, 2015
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What a great name for a law firm
(even having Pickett twice - which is fine - because he is That Damned Good!)
As long as they don't fleece us like most lawyers do!
coniglio_number1
Norm Smith Medallist
Lobb spent plenty of his early youth living away from family and friends whilst working FIFO. He spent the majority of his off season in Sydney. These are not the actions of someone that would suffer homesickness
It's not really inside information. And it's certainly not current. All I know about Pickett came from a nice conversation I had with his dad during the intra-club match pre-season. At that point he was enjoying Sydney, not homesick and looking forward to learning at the feet of Stevie J.
Since then he's had that season ending injury - I don't know how much that has affected him in terms of liking Sydney and wanting to stay. When you don't get to go out there and play with your mates each weekend like you're supposed to homesickness and reassessments can really kick in.
We know that McCarthy was enjoying Sydney and loved being at the club until about half way through the year. His form slumped a bit, Patton was coming back and kicking goals in the NEAFL, the Lamberts announced they were leaving (it was reported in the press Freo would offer him huge coin) and who knows what else was going on behind the scenes - after that it all just spiralled down hill for him and the rest, as they say....
But when he was kicking bags and being nominated for rising stars all was hunky dory. Circumstances changed and so did Cam. Who knows what Pickett is thinking at the moment - certainly not me - but pre-season everything looked good for a long career he at the Giants.
There are a lot of people who think "well X is not getting a game, they must want to go home" not realising the reasons why X is not getting game time. I remember one poster saying that Sam Darley wanted to go home to get more game time (not realising he was from Tasmania) I've heard the question asked about both Pickett and Ahern and other players last year who were out with injury - oh they're not playing the must want out.
There's also a question of development. Kids need to be allowed to develop their game and if it takes a while, well it takes a while. Michael Tuck played over a hundred reserves games before cementing his spot in the seniors - and then played over 400 games. Tony Liberatore won not one but 2 Gardiner medals (VFL Reserves Brownlow equivalent) before going on to win an actual Brownlow.
I don't see what's wrong with learning your trade.
But I digress.
Pickett has shown no indication he wants out, he has another year on his contract having signed an extension to stay - and the only place where these rumours are coming from are Big Footy.
Just because he's from somewhere else originally, doesn't mean squat in the grand scheme of things. Ultimately were all from somewhere else - some just more recent than others.
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