List Mgmt. Traded Future Draft Pick Watch (Lions 1st Rnd '19)

briztoon

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#51
You did build your core youngsters nicely ,
2016
Pick 3 Hugh McCluggage
Pick 17 Jarrod Berry
Pick 23 Alex Witherden
Pick 24 Cedric Cox ( NeAFL )
2017
Pick 1Cameron Rayner
pick15 Zac Bailey
Pick 18 Brandon Starcevich ( NeAFL )
2018
Pick 21 Ely Smith ( NeAFL )
Pick 36 Tom Berry ( NEAFL )
2015
Eric Hipwood & Rhys Mathieson.

I'd add all of our draftees from the 2018 draft.
Pick Tom Joyce 40 was very, very good for WA as an under ager in 2017, was set to captain WA in 2018 before a hip injury ruled out his draft year. He's very much a Lachie Neale type mid.
Pick 42 Connor McFadyen from our academy, made the All Australian U18 from the National Championships as that big body hybrid forward/mid. He suffered a linsfranc fracture to a foot in a NEAFL game post U18 Championships, but played in the NEAFL practice game against your mob on the weekend in think.
Pick 55 Noah Answerth, was highly rated going in to his draft year, suffered a broken back in round 2 of the TAC cup in his draft year, then returned last year to captain Oakleigh Chargers as an over ager. Has looked very good preseason. He's a small lock defender that can go through the midfield as well.

It's something our recruiters do with our latter draft picks. Look at kids who had very good U16 Champs and bottom age years, but have slipped due to injury in their draft year.

Both Berry and Witherden were regarded as top end talent going in to their draft year, but suffered injuries and slipped out of the top 10-12. Mathieson was rated a top 20 talent, but slipped in his draft due to a poor draft combine, running a very bad beep test.
 

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Peel67skin

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#52
2015
Eric Hipwood & Rhys Mathieson.

I'd add all of our draftees from the 2018 draft.
Pick Tom Joyce 40 was very, very good for WA as an under ager in 2017, was set to captain WA in 2018 before a hip injury ruled out his draft year. He's very much a Lachie Neale type mid.
Pick 42 Connor McFadyen from our academy, made the All Australian U18 from the National Championships as that big body hybrid forward/mid. He suffered a linsfranc fracture to a foot in a NEAFL game post U18 Championships, but played in the NEAFL practice game against your mob on the weekend in think.
Pick 55 Noah Answerth, was highly rated going in to his draft year, suffered a broken back in round 2 of the TAC cup in his draft year, then returned last year to captain Oakleigh Chargers as an over ager. Has looked very good preseason. He's a small lock defender that can go through the midfield as well.

It's something our recruiters do with our latter draft picks. Look at kids who had very good U16 Champs and bottom age years, but have slipped due to injury in their draft year.

Both Berry and Witherden were regarded as top end talent going in to their draft year, but suffered injuries and slipped out of the top 10-12. Mathieson was rated a top 20 talent, but slipped in his draft due to a poor draft combine, running a very bad beep test.
I don't rate your 2015 Draft because of your No 2 pick and Ben keay. Hipwood also under the old system academy point system .
 
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#53
I don't rate your 2015 Draft because of your No 2 pick and Ben keay. Hipwood also under the old system academy point system .
Hipwood was one of the first under the current academy system. It was also Schache that was their pick 2. Originally it did look like a botched draft but Mathieson has been playing well so far this year
 

briztoon

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#54
I don't rate your 2015 Draft because of your No 2 pick and Ben keay. Hipwood also under the old system academy point system .
As mentioned, 2015 was the first year the new draft points system was introduced.

Ben Keays is caught in the middle. Too good for the NEAFL, to slow both mentally and physically at AFL level. But he was rated in his draft year.

Schache is a hindsight pick. We didn't do enough research on his mental make up pre-draft. We had also been crying out for a CHF, and Schache seemed the perfect fit.

Schache still might come good a the Dogs. Might take him another 2 years before we really know.

But you look at our team of "kids", and they really start with Andrews from the 2014 draft.

And if Cutler and McStay come good and sort out their consistency, 2013 really lays the foundation with Gardiner, McStay and Cutler as best 22, and Taylor Robertson providing list depth.
 

Peel67skin

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#55
As mentioned, 2015 was the first year the new draft points system was introduced.

Ben Keays is caught in the middle. Too good for the NEAFL, to slow both mentally and physically at AFL level. But he was rated in his draft year.

Schache is a hindsight pick. We didn't do enough research on his mental make up pre-draft. We had also been crying out for a CHF, and Schache seemed the perfect fit.

Schache still might come good a the Dogs. Might take him another 2 years before we really know.

But you look at our team of "kids", and they really start with Andrews from the 2014 draft.

And if Cutler and McStay come good and sort out their consistency, 2013 really lays the foundation with Gardiner, McStay and Cutler as best 22, and Taylor Robertson providing list depth.
Looking at Brisbane and Carlton first and early second Rd pick , I amazed why it take so long to rebuild , both club are not like GC start from scratch .
 

briztoon

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#56
Looking at Brisbane and Carlton first and early second Rd pick , I amazed why it take so long to rebuild , both club are not like GC start from scratch .
Really!

Sometimes I'm not sure if you are trolling or don't understand how the AFL and player development works.


You yourself said you don't rate our 2015 draft. Well more than half our list has been drafted, or traded in since 2016.

We still have the second youngest list in the AFL.

We bottomed out after our 3 peat right when Gold Coast and GWS entered the competition and went through 3 compromised expansion drafts. Missing out on the genuine top tier talent from 2010 to 2013. Then we lost what young talent we had in 2013 and 2014 to "go home" factors for a bunch of second round picks.

We also traded the farm to bring Beams and Allen Christensen up to Brisbane in 2014.

So we had minimal mature talent and next to no young talent on the list.

At the beginning of 2015 we had two top 10 picks on our list, Daniel Rich and Sam Mayes.

At the beginning of 2016 we had the least amount of top 10 picks on a list, and the least amount of first round picks on a list, compared to all AFL teams. After the 2016 draft, we still had the least amount of top 10 picks and first round picks on a list in the AFL.

Not all first round picks are the same. Typically the better talent is drafted in the top 10 of the draft. Outside the top 10, it very much comes down to what talent has been passed over by other clubs. As I mentioned in a previous post, it's why our current recruiters often draft kids who have slid due to injury or other non talent concerns/issues with our picks outside the top 10.

We also had some cultural issues and traded out Hanley, and let Rockliff walk for a compensation pick, in consecutive years, to clear out the locker room problems. We then lost Beams last year.

In 2014 we also traded in what mature age talent we could find, or signed what ever half decent de-listed free agents that would come to Brisbane, to protect our 2013 draftees from having to play heavy minutes while they developed. Unfortunately these players mostly lacked sufficient talent and we ended up playing our our kids anyway.

In 2014 and 2015 we had the same stigma attached to us by the Vic media that followed your team around last season. A basket case of a team.


When you're a team that lacks mature talent you have to wait for your kids to develop, and that takes time.


You look at our team from Saturday.

Three players were on our list prior to 2013. Zorko and Martin who came in 2012 and Daniel Rich who was drafted in 2009.

Two of our interchange players were cast offs from other teams, traded in during the 2014 trade period, while a third, Mitch Robinson was actually a de-listed free agent from 2014. Another three were traded in just this past trade period Neale, McCarthy and Lyons.

Two other were traded in, in 2017, Hodge and Cameron.

The other 11, so half the team were recent draftees from 2013 to 2017.

Our rebuild effectively began in 2013, stalled in 2014 and 2015, and started back again when Fagan and Noble came to the club in 2016.

Rebuilds take time, and don't follow a linear progression.



Looking at the history of rebuilding teams like Melbourne, Carlton and Brisbane, that's why I have said here previously, you're 2 to 4 years behind us in your rebuild. If your four top 10 2016 draftees had all been hits and stayed, I'd say you rebuild was 2 years behind Brisbane's. Because you've lost one, possibly lost another, or his development hasn't been linear like Ainsworth's and Bowes, and you sort of had a reset year at the 2017 draft, I'm more inclined to think your rebuild is closer to 4 years behind Brisbane.

You have a more talent on your list than what we did in 2013 and 2015, in which case then it's back to being 2 years behind Brisbane.

Think of it like this Brisbane's 2016 draft = Gold Coasts 2018 draft. Next year you'll add another one, possibly two top 10 draftees.

I'm not being snarky or arrogant here. That's just my personal view on where your list is at.


You still have more top 10 and first round picks in your team that we do, I amazed you're still stuck down the bottom of the ladder with Brisbane and Carlton. Now I'm being tongue cheek snarky.
 

Peel67skin

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#57
Really!

Sometimes I'm not sure if you are trolling or don't understand how the AFL and player development works.


You yourself said you don't rate our 2015 draft. Well more than half our list has been drafted, or traded in since 2016.

We still have the second youngest list in the AFL.

We bottomed out after our 3 peat right when Gold Coast and GWS entered the competition and went through 3 compromised expansion drafts. Missing out on the genuine top tier talent from 2010 to 2013. Then we lost what young talent we had in 2013 and 2014 to "go home" factors for a bunch of second round picks.

We also traded the farm to bring Beams and Allen Christensen up to Brisbane in 2014.

So we had minimal mature talent and next to no young talent on the list.

At the beginning of 2015 we had two top 10 picks on our list, Daniel Rich and Sam Mayes.

At the beginning of 2016 we had the least amount of top 10 picks on a list, and the least amount of first round picks on a list, compared to all AFL teams. After the 2016 draft, we still had the least amount of top 10 picks and first round picks on a list in the AFL.

Not all first round picks are the same. Typically the better talent is drafted in the top 10 of the draft. Outside the top 10, it very much comes down to what talent has been passed over by other clubs. As I mentioned in a previous post, it's why our current recruiters often draft kids who have slid due to injury or other non talent concerns/issues with our picks outside the top 10.

We also had some cultural issues and traded out Hanley, and let Rockliff walk for a compensation pick, in consecutive years, to clear out the locker room problems. We then lost Beams last year.

In 2014 we also traded in what mature age talent we could find, or signed what ever half decent de-listed free agents that would come to Brisbane, to protect our 2013 draftees from having to play heavy minutes while they developed. Unfortunately these players mostly lacked sufficient talent and we ended up playing our our kids anyway.

In 2014 and 2015 we had the same stigma attached to us by the Vic media that followed your team around last season. A basket case of a team.


When you're a team that lacks mature talent you have to wait for your kids to develop, and that takes time.


You look at our team from Saturday.

Three players were on our list prior to 2013. Zorko and Martin who came in 2012 and Daniel Rich who was drafted in 2009.

Two of our interchange players were cast offs from other teams, traded in during the 2014 trade period, while a third, Mitch Robinson was actually a de-listed free agent from 2014. Another three were traded in just this past trade period Neale, McCarthy and Lyons.

Two other were traded in, in 2017, Hodge and Cameron.

The other 11, so half the team were recent draftees from 2013 to 2017.

Our rebuild effectively began in 2013, stalled in 2014 and 2015, and started back again when Fagan and Noble came to the club in 2016.

Rebuilds take time, and don't follow a linear progression.



Looking at the history of rebuilding teams like Melbourne, Carlton and Brisbane, that's why I have said here previously, you're 2 to 4 years behind us in your rebuild. If your four top 10 2016 draftees had all been hits and stayed, I'd say you rebuild was 2 years behind Brisbane's. Because you've lost one, possibly lost another, or his development hasn't been linear like Ainsworth's and Bowes, and you sort of had a reset year at the 2017 draft, I'm more inclined to think your rebuild is closer to 4 years behind Brisbane.

You have a more talent on your list than what we did in 2013 and 2015, in which case then it's back to being 2 years behind Brisbane.

Think of it like this Brisbane's 2016 draft = Gold Coasts 2018 draft. Next year you'll add another one, possibly two top 10 draftees.

I'm not being snarky or arrogant here. That's just my personal view on where your list is at.


You still have more top 10 and first round picks in your team that we do, I amazed you're still stuck down the bottom of the ladder with Brisbane and Carlton. Now I'm being tongue cheek snarky.
Can't wait for the Q clash , bring it on .
 

Choppers

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#58
Really!

Sometimes I'm not sure if you are trolling or don't understand how the AFL and player development works.


You yourself said you don't rate our 2015 draft. Well more than half our list has been drafted, or traded in since 2016.

We still have the second youngest list in the AFL.

We bottomed out after our 3 peat right when Gold Coast and GWS entered the competition and went through 3 compromised expansion drafts. Missing out on the genuine top tier talent from 2010 to 2013. Then we lost what young talent we had in 2013 and 2014 to "go home" factors for a bunch of second round picks.

We also traded the farm to bring Beams and Allen Christensen up to Brisbane in 2014.

So we had minimal mature talent and next to no young talent on the list.

At the beginning of 2015 we had two top 10 picks on our list, Daniel Rich and Sam Mayes.

At the beginning of 2016 we had the least amount of top 10 picks on a list, and the least amount of first round picks on a list, compared to all AFL teams. After the 2016 draft, we still had the least amount of top 10 picks and first round picks on a list in the AFL.

Not all first round picks are the same. Typically the better talent is drafted in the top 10 of the draft. Outside the top 10, it very much comes down to what talent has been passed over by other clubs. As I mentioned in a previous post, it's why our current recruiters often draft kids who have slid due to injury or other non talent concerns/issues with our picks outside the top 10.

We also had some cultural issues and traded out Hanley, and let Rockliff walk for a compensation pick, in consecutive years, to clear out the locker room problems. We then lost Beams last year.

In 2014 we also traded in what mature age talent we could find, or signed what ever half decent de-listed free agents that would come to Brisbane, to protect our 2013 draftees from having to play heavy minutes while they developed. Unfortunately these players mostly lacked sufficient talent and we ended up playing our our kids anyway.

In 2014 and 2015 we had the same stigma attached to us by the Vic media that followed your team around last season. A basket case of a team.


When you're a team that lacks mature talent you have to wait for your kids to develop, and that takes time.


You look at our team from Saturday.

Three players were on our list prior to 2013. Zorko and Martin who came in 2012 and Daniel Rich who was drafted in 2009.

Two of our interchange players were cast offs from other teams, traded in during the 2014 trade period, while a third, Mitch Robinson was actually a de-listed free agent from 2014. Another three were traded in just this past trade period Neale, McCarthy and Lyons.

Two other were traded in, in 2017, Hodge and Cameron.

The other 11, so half the team were recent draftees from 2013 to 2017.

Our rebuild effectively began in 2013, stalled in 2014 and 2015, and started back again when Fagan and Noble came to the club in 2016.

Rebuilds take time, and don't follow a linear progression.



Looking at the history of rebuilding teams like Melbourne, Carlton and Brisbane, that's why I have said here previously, you're 2 to 4 years behind us in your rebuild. If your four top 10 2016 draftees had all been hits and stayed, I'd say you rebuild was 2 years behind Brisbane's. Because you've lost one, possibly lost another, or his development hasn't been linear like Ainsworth's and Bowes, and you sort of had a reset year at the 2017 draft, I'm more inclined to think your rebuild is closer to 4 years behind Brisbane.

You have a more talent on your list than what we did in 2013 and 2015, in which case then it's back to being 2 years behind Brisbane.

Think of it like this Brisbane's 2016 draft = Gold Coasts 2018 draft. Next year you'll add another one, possibly two top 10 draftees.

I'm not being snarky or arrogant here. That's just my personal view on where your list is at.


You still have more top 10 and first round picks in your team that we do, I amazed you're still stuck down the bottom of the ladder with Brisbane and Carlton. Now I'm being tongue cheek snarky.

A very good, well researched post.....I'm hoping to split the difference and making it a 1-2yr difference...

And I'll finish it off by saying.....#challenge accepted.
 

briztoon

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#59
A very good, well researched post.....I'm hoping to split the difference and making it a 1-2yr difference...

And I'll finish it off by saying.....#challenge accepted.
Thanks Choppers.

I've really only repeated what's been discussed on the Brisbane board many, many times.


Sometimes I believe people expect draftees to have an immediate impact. Kids live Patrick Cripps, Ollie Wines and Clayton Oliver are the exception, rather than the norm. It still takes most midfielders 3 to 5 years to really come in to their own and have a consistent impact at AFL level.

And it everyone should know it takes tall players even longer. Harris Andrews as a defender is also very much an exception where he was at All Australian level (before being headhunted in the GWS match last year) in only his fourth year.

I've said it enough on the Lions board over the last three years, that all things working out, that 2020 is when we should realistically be pushing for finals.


Teams also need those older and mid aged A grade players to support the development of their younger players, otherwise opposition teams will just run rings around the kids, leading to the inevitable 10 goal+ losses.

It's one reason why Noble and Fagan went after Hodge, and then traded out our top picks in the 18 and 19 drafts to bring in Neale, as well as trading in experienced players like McCarthy and Adams, and picking up Lyons as a de-listed free agent.

We now have enough A and B grade talent in the 26 to 29 year age group, and the 22 to 25 age group, too then add our talented kids with 1 to 3 years of experience to fill out the first team.


You need to take the emotion of being a supporter out, and take an objective look at your list, and look at the rest of the competition and develop a realistic time line for your team to be genuinely competitive.

How many genuine A and B grade talent do you have in the 30+ age group, and in the 26 to 29 in their prime age group, the 22 to 25 age group where they are consistently good and pushing to be genuine A grade talents, and genuinely talented kids developing in the 19 to 21 age group.


Looking at the rest of competition, on the Lions board, I mentioned Sydney as main top 8 team I said I could see sliding down. Others mentioned Adelaide and Geelong, but I don't see that with their lists just yet.

North was the team in that 9 to 12 bracket that I believe could slide out of being genuinely competitive.

I picked St Kilda to really start to bottom out.

Carlton is a year behind Brisbane, and potentially has a lot more young talent across every line, if they all develop.

The competition is a lot more even now, thanks to greater player movement, that it's going to be harder for teams building mainly through the draft to climb up the ladder when the teams just above them can keep trading in just enough talent to just remain competitive without being realistic finals challengers.
 

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briztoon

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#66
At least I don't have to barrack for Dorko Robinson Cameron and Hodge
Vile snipers and simulators the lot of them
We used to give it to St Kilda for Milne but Brisbane has loaded up with his type
Nice guy Fagan right?:rolleyes:
You left out Mathieson.

Every team has campaigners. When they're your campaigners you love them and defend them (to a point). When they're not your campaigners, you love to bag them.

Every team needs a few. They're they guys who usually let other teams know they can't walk all over you.

Since May has left, I genuinely don't know who are your campaigners. If you don't have any, you could be in little trouble, especially your kids.
 

Peel67skin

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#67
You left out Mathieson.

Every team has campaigners. When they're your campaigners you love them and defend them (to a point). When they're not your campaigners, you love to bag them.

Every team needs a few. They're they guys who usually let other teams know they can't walk all over you.

Since May has left, I genuinely don't know who are your campaigners. If you don't have any, you could be in little trouble, especially your kids.
Please don't over step the line. Nobody want unnecessary argument .
 

nutstar

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#73
What line are you talking about?

Especially seeing as I'm not insulting any of your players.

I am/was having a genuine discussion.
Ignore peel..... I certainly do...
As for the type of player in question.
Whilst I wouldn't call him a campaigner.
Touk Miller seems the player that can get under skins and just annoy all day long. Like he's done to Zorko the last couple of times.
 

Stroppy

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#75
Every team has campaigners. When they're your campaigners you love them and defend them (to a point). When they're not your campaigners, you love to bag them.
Yes, agree with this.
But for me there is a bit more to it.

Are you are a genuine and good person off the field or are you a campaigner all the time?
Are you a gun who still bothers with that rubbish when you would be better just playing football?
Most importantly, are you courageous and when you have to put your head over the ball or back into a pack, you do it?

For example, I have always given Robbo more ticks than crosses overall. And he gets a lot of crosses.

Plenty of other blokes never get on the positive side of the ledger.
 
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