Trading for a fringe player from a premiership team - Does it ever work?

[RUNVS]

I was thinking about this today and the reasoning behind it makes sense. The Premiership team is great, full of stars and there is this player that can't quite break into the team for whatever reason, but that is not a bad thing as it is a great team, so he must be a pretty good player at the very least.

The problem with that reasoning is that it does not seem to work very often.

eg

North Melbourne going after Jed Anderson
Western Bulldogs getting Matthew Suckling
Essendon getting Brent Prismal

Is the idea of trading for a fringe player in a great team a good idea, and does it fail more often than it works, and if so why?

 

[Jaeger]

 

[master bate]

Mumford worked out pretty well for the Swans when he was on the fringes of the Cats 2009 team.

 

[BrainOfMorbius]

Craig Bolton did OK after leaving the Lions.

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[Hellgood]

Campbell Heath did his bit for us. Quickly superseded but hard for me not to have fond memories biased by that exciting five game start in 2013.

Saints did alright out of Koby Stevens this year.

 

[darcytiger]

Toby Nankervis, whilst not from a premiership team, was from a grand final team. Could say a fringe ruckman for a pick in the 40s worked pretty well for us

 

[Badesumofu]

Jed Anderson is a funny one. Looked pretty good for us in his first season, narrowly missed selection for the 2013 GF to Simpkin but looked like he would be a great player. From a Hawthorn supporter POV I wasn't happy when it was announced he was seeking a trade but I was okay with it after the actual deal was announced. Doesn't seem to have gone anywhere with North and we used the pick to get Ryan Burton who looks like an out and out star.

I have to wonder why Anderson hasn't really come on though, and whether he will come good at some point.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Jed Anderson is a funny one. Looked pretty good for us in his first season, narrowly missed selection for the 2013 GF to Simpkin but looked like he would be a great player. From a Hawthorn supporter POV I wasn't happy when it was announced he was seeking a trade but I was okay with it after the actual deal was announced. Doesn't seem to have gone anywhere with North and we used the pick to get Ryan Burton who looks like an out and out star.

I have to wonder why Anderson hasn't really come on though, and whether he will come good at some point.

Same reason Hawthorn told him he wasn’t going to get opportunities.....can’t run out a game.

 

[Montezuma]

Shane Savage?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

The main issue is star players make those around them look better by lightening their workload to such an extent.

It’s very rare that any player performs as well when surrounded by inferior players.

 

[Young Gun #6]

Joel Hamling. Absolute jet at Freo now

 

[blitzer]

Its definitely clear that a fair bit of overrating goes on for individual players that win premierships. Sometimes a group just unifies at the right time, together and plays a good stretch of football. It doesn't mean that every player in the premiership team is amazing.

I'd suggest you have to be especially wary of players that play supportive roles in areas of the ground where they have genuine stars that take all the attention. For example - Richmond's team. Known for their defense specifically. Do they have 6 defenders that are all top liners - God no. Absolutely not. They are getting talked up right now as if they are but if Vlastuin went to Gold Coast how would he be rated there?

I'm only picking on Richmond because they are the most recent side to have success but this overrating has been happening for years.
All the way back to our 2000 flag - I remember guys like Heffernan and Blumfield had very good years but they never really lived up to how they were rated in the future.

People always forget. Its simply easier to play in a quality side. The team supports each other, teammates are in the right positions, good pressure is put on the opposition ball carrier, no one player is relied on to an extreme degree etc etc. Every flag side has had a few honest toilers or role players.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Jed Anderson is a funny one. Looked pretty good for us in his first season, narrowly missed selection for the 2013 GF to Simpkin but looked like he would be a great player. From a Hawthorn supporter POV I wasn't happy when it was announced he was seeking a trade but I was okay with it after the actual deal was announced. Doesn't seem to have gone anywhere with North and we used the pick to get Ryan Burton who looks like an out and out star.

I have to wonder why Anderson hasn't really come on though, and whether he will come good at some point.

It’s mental for Anderson
He was in a coma and just never was the same after

 

[Luv_our_club]

I think it definitely works, in answer to the OP.

It works with Top 4 teams generally. For example, Sydney taking Josh Kennedy and McGlyn from us when we had a lot of depth post 2008.

Suckling was best 22 when he left, multiple GF player.

Some leave for money, some for opportunity.

 

[Rance2Mewtwo]

You'd expect them to perform slightly worse if anything, but you recruit these types of players to play a team role or to bring some cultural knowledge across.

The 22nd best player of the best team is more valuable than the 12th best player of the worst team, because he "gets" how a premiership team is supposed to be like.

But you don't recruit fringe premiership players expecting them to star in a worse team...

 

[james Dean]

Josh P Kennedy? I know Hawthorn hadn't won a flag at that stage but they were right on the brink.

 

[Scotland]

Josh P Kennedy, anyone?

Granted Hawthorn had an ordinary 2009, but he was a fringe midfielder in a team that won the flag the year prior and with Mitchell, Sewell, Lewis they didn't have room for 4 inside mids in the same team.

Going the other way I'm not sure you can call Tom Mitchell 'fringe' since he was established in the Swans 22 and played every game in 2016 but he's gone from part of the Swans midfield group to the #1 mid at Hawthorn and leading possession accumulator in the comp in one season.

 

[Anja_Nees]

Suckling has been fine and probably doesn’t deserve a mention. He is a dual premiership player and wasn’t really fringe. Played every game this season and but for a terribly timed injury would have played in his third flag.

Having said that, as a general rule I’m against trading for fringe players. It’s a bit of a Hail Mary. Unless the club in question is genuinely blessed in the position they player plays in they are probably just average.

 

[The Goon]

Its definitely clear that a fair bit of overrating goes on for individual players that win premierships. Sometimes a group just unifies at the right time, together and plays a good stretch of football. It doesn't mean that every player in the premiership team is amazing.

I'd suggest you have to be especially wary of players that play supportive roles in areas of the ground where they have genuine stars that take all the attention. For example - Richmond's team. Known for their defense specifically. Do they have 6 defenders that are all top liners - God no. Absolutely not. They are getting talked up right now as if they are but if Vlastuin went to Gold Coast how would he be rated there?

I'm only picking on Richmond because they are the most recent side to have success but this overrating has been happening for years.
All the way back to our 2000 flag - I remember guys like Heffernan and Blumfield had very good years but they never really lived up to how they were rated in the future.

People always forget. Its simply easier to play in a quality side. The team supports each other, teammates are in the right positions, good pressure is put on the opposition ball carrier, no one player is relied on to an extreme degree etc etc. Every flag side has had a few honest toilers or role players.

Agree with your take, but you used a terrible example in picking Flossy and our back line. When fit is a gun, rate him ahead of both Grimes and Astbury, who are both decent at worst (and obviously play very different roles). Broad should have been the example.


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[Scotland]

Suckling was in the bottom half of the 22 at Hawthorn and is in the bottom half of the 22 at the Bulldogs. He was a FA signing and his compo was end of second round so was hardly brought in marquee signing.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Jed Anderson is a funny one. Looked pretty good for us in his first season, narrowly missed selection for the 2013 GF to Simpkin but looked like he would be a great player. From a Hawthorn supporter POV I wasn't happy when it was announced he was seeking a trade but I was okay with it after the actual deal was announced. Doesn't seem to have gone anywhere with North and we used the pick to get Ryan Burton who looks like an out and out star.

I have to wonder why Anderson hasn't really come on though, and whether he will come good at some point.

Injuries, doesn't get involved enough and is pidgeon-holed as a small forward. He hasn't been horrible, just disappears for far too long.

 

[living_in_syd]

Nank the tank goes alright! Thanks sydney!!

 

[Kwality]

Joel Hamling. Absolute jet at Freo now

Low blow? A 20+ selection who did his bit when it counted. Down back 2017 at Freo was a far tougher gig. Only a fair dinkum dill would expect a jet, but clearly they are about.

 

[HairyO]

Suckling was in the bottom half of the 22 at Hawthorn and is in the bottom half of the 22 at the Bulldogs. He was a FA signing and his compo was end of second round so was hardly brought in marquee signing.

Who claimed he was? I think the Dogs offered him something like 400 or 450k a year. Which was about 100k a year more than Hawthorn offered.

I think our backline missed him in 2016. Much like we missed Hill this year. And will miss Hodge next year.

But life will go on.

And you lot have missed the biggest fringe player ever.

Gary Ablett Senior.

 

[Wayne Swan]

Josh P Kennedy? I know Hawthorn hadn't won a flag at that stage but they were right on the brink.

Think you'll find they won the 2008 flag, Kennedy got traded to the Swans 12 months after their flag. Best use of a pick 35 - ever!