Training Report - Wednesday the 11th of February 2015.

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#51
Shoey could be trimmed up so he can play occasionally as a big midfielder as Roughie does on occasions. From memory Shoey was a midfielder in his teen years and then grew to KPP size. If he's trim and agile now he may be quite effective as a big mid/Ruck Rover on occasions. Otherwise push him up to CHF
Can't see it. I thought he was a HFFer until he grew.

For mine he's a key defender, key forward or lead up third tall forward.
 

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#55
The same old "what to do with Shoey ?" Thread.

Provided he make a case for inclusion, if hes the one hving the trouble performing at his best then let hom take the chf or hff position and let other more capable such as rough move around fightinh fitrs, creating problems for opponents
 

realhawk

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#56
Shoey could be trimmed up so he can play occasionally as a big midfielder as Roughie does on occasions. From memory Shoey was a midfielder in his teen years and then grew to KPP size. If he's trim and agile now he may be quite effective as a big mid/Ruck Rover on occasions. Otherwise push him up to CHF
I hope you are right, but reality means that if Shoey is in our seniors this year then we must be suffering from a lot of injuries or poor form from other players. His track record is not flash , he is a back up player and that is all, he is not suddenly going to be as good a player as Lake or gibbo, plus we now have frawley plus spagher is still miles ahead of him. Let's not put to much pressure on the bloke, if he can help us out and do his job when we need him that's what we want, it takes 30 good player to win a flag.
 

savagelunchbox

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#57
It's worth a trial at least. Only issue is his agility. If he's lost some weight it will help with his mobility. He's not a CHB as we have other better options. I see him as a CHF playing midfield occasionally.
He is not mentally quick enough nor is he nimble enough to be a midfielder.
 

arupist

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#61
What is with the Schoey hate?

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...d1=3122&tid2=8&pid2=3137&type=T&fid1=S&fid2=S

One player some of us consider #40 on our list and another will be a club captain in 1-2 years...yet looking at the stats the better performing player is Hawthorn listed.
Interesting stats comparison. But if you look beyond total disposals, the effective disposal %, clangers and 1%ers clearly favour Roughead. And I guess that is where the naysayers are coming from.
 

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#62
Interesting stats comparison. But if you look beyond total disposals, the effective disposal %, clangers and 1%ers clearly favour Roughead. And I guess that is where the naysayers are coming from.
You are reading the stats wrong - 210 disposals 32 clangers equal 1 clanger per 6.56 possessions vs 171 disposals and 28 clangers equal 1 clanger per 6.1 disposals.
 

savagelunchbox

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#63
You are reading the stats wrong - 210 disposals 32 clangers equal 1 clanger per 6.56 possessions vs 171 disposals and 28 clangers equal 1 clanger per 6.1 disposals.
For KPF's the stats can be misleading. A missed shot on goal is considered a clanger, I believe.
 
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#64
For KPF's the stats can be misleading. A missed shot on goal is considered a clanger, I believe.
well Roughead only had one shot on goal and Schoey had 12 (dunno about non scoring shots) so wouldn't this only support that Schoey was statistically made less clangers per possession? Also according to Champion Data if a kick travels 40 metres forward it is an effective kick even if it goes to an opposition player. Roughead's tactic when exiting defense typically was to belt it long as where our game plan is to be more precise when exiting defense.
 

HR Roughnstuf

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#66
I love it how clubs just mindlessly try to copy Hawthorns game plan.

One thing that Clarko does is develop a game plan to a) play to the teams strengths and b) cover the teams weaknesses. It has taken years of development and recruiting to have a team with so much versatility. In fact Roughie was a fairly one dimensional full forward until 2011 (or at least played as such). It wasn't really until 09 when we had absolutely no ruck man able to play Norf in Tassie that he actually played there (Hodge gave Rough some relief some of you might remember). Anyway, my point is that it has taken him at least 4 seasons to become an elite swing man IMO.

Players like Hodge and Burgoyne took years to develop their abilities to play all over the ground. Mitch only started last year to play across the half back line.

I had a good laugh last year when Jack Reiwoldt admitted that Richmond had tried to copy Hawthorn too much (he was punished by the leadership group for saying this).

People don't realise just how remarkable Clarko is, he is an innovator whilst most of his 'peers' are innovators.

Clarko didn't think 'Hey let's develop a game plan based on pin point accuracy for the fun of it' he would have thought, 'We have all these players with high disposal efficiency, let's play to this strength we have by developing a game plan that allows our good users of the footy to get an advantage'. He didn't think 'Lets try to isolate a random forward and hope they can kick a **** load of goals' he thought 'We have Lance Franklin, let's try to isolate him because he is a ******* gun', the plan doesn't work with Drew Petrie.

It's the same from some Hawks supporters. I was reading in a thread about replacing players when they retire and people were saying we don't have a Gibson replacement on our list. But Gibbo is a fairly unique defender whose strength is spoiling marks, so that's the way the defense has worked but now with Frawley I am sure we will see some changes this year and the years that follow. Depending on the personal and their strengths, Clarko and the coaching team will adjust accordingly.

So good luck Bombers trying to imitate the premier team of the competition. Hope you fair better than you have in court.
 
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#67
Bomber thompson and someone else were discussing it on SEN once.

He said they were trying to adopt aspects of the plan, getting the kicking efficiency was one thing, but then he said getting the players to be able to work into position to receive from the said kicks was another thing altogether.
Thats why that great young guy who didnt have much english couldnt stay at hawthorn, as the messages were too complex to be translated.
Makes you wonder how the top soccer teams manage, as they now have a multitude of languages.

It seems when clarko and his coaching team started out, Port Adelaide was the model for coaching, St Kilda was the model for recruiting (especially from the lower part of the ladder) and Geelong was the model for on field organization. Team has probably only just reached the heights geelong did at their peak in this respect, and its been so much easier having Lake on board, meaning not so much pressing back to bolster the defence.

2008 victory was a team with mimimal depth just hitting the right level with a game plan designed to do the job, and a great slice of luck (mainly geelong stuffing up at selection).
2014 was a victory with a team with depth to spare, but which was at peak output due to fantastic management. No need for luck there.


I wouldnt want to lose clarko, probably wont, but imagine if hed had the raw talent of GC or GWS to work with.
Then they would be dominating. Mind you, rockets no slouch as a tactician either, will be interesting to watch
 
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tige19

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#68
Schoey is great back up for us, he has to stay on the list. As a collective I don't think he will contribute anything of real substance at AFL level but he's certainly a guy we need to keep our list strong.
 

threesixpio

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#69
The same old "what to do with Shoey ?" Thread.

Provided he make a case for inclusion, if hes the one hving the trouble performing at his best then let hom take the chf or hff position and let other more capable such as rough move around fightinh fitrs, creating problems for opponents
I love it how clubs just mindlessly try to copy Hawthorns game plan.

One thing that Clarko does is develop a game plan to a) play to the teams strengths and b) cover the teams weaknesses. It has taken years of development and recruiting to have a team with so much versatility. In fact Roughie was a fairly one dimensional full forward until 2011 (or at least played as such). It wasn't really until 09 when we had absolutely no ruck man able to play Norf in Tassie that he actually played there (Hodge gave Rough some relief some of you might remember). Anyway, my point is that it has taken him at least 4 seasons to become an elite swing man IMO.

Players like Hodge and Burgoyne took years to develop their abilities to play all over the ground. Mitch only started last year to play across the half back line.

I had a good laugh last year when Jack Reiwoldt admitted that Richmond had tried to copy Hawthorn too much (he was punished by the leadership group for saying this).

People don't realise just how remarkable Clarko is, he is an innovator whilst most of his 'peers' are innovators.

Clarko didn't think 'Hey let's develop a game plan based on pin point accuracy for the fun of it' he would have thought, 'We have all these players with high disposal efficiency, let's play to this strength we have by developing a game plan that allows our good users of the footy to get an advantage'. He didn't think 'Lets try to isolate a random forward and hope they can kick a **** load of goals' he thought 'We have Lance Franklin, let's try to isolate him because he is a ******* gun', the plan doesn't work with Drew Petrie.

It's the same from some Hawks supporters. I was reading in a thread about replacing players when they retire and people were saying we don't have a Gibson replacement on our list. But Gibbo is a fairly unique defender whose strength is spoiling marks, so that's the way the defense has worked but now with Frawley I am sure we will see some changes this year and the years that follow. Depending on the personal and their strengths, Clarko and the coaching team will adjust accordingly.

So good luck Bombers trying to imitate the premier team of the competition. Hope you fair better than you have in court.
I agree with this in a way but there are some "types" which are always good in a team. The FB that is tough and great aerially is pretty bloody handy (Lake is so good aerially its not funny). We have also recruited to put a plan in place to an extent as well rather than the other way around - particularly the recent focus on pace, fitness and skill. But somewhere in the 2009-2011 period Clarko did a bit of what you're saying - looked and our strengths, came up with a game plan and recruited people to fill in the holes. Its paying off so well now. I'm pumped about this year and looking forward to play Port (along with the Swines and relatively injury free Freo). There's really not a lot to worry about this year is there? We get to see one of the last seasons of some of our favourite players, see a whole bunch of young players putting their hand up and the possibility of three-peat. It rocks being a Hawks supporter ATM.
 

HR Roughnstuf

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#70
I agree with this in a way but there are some "types" which are always good in a team. The FB that is tough and great aerially is pretty bloody handy (Lake is so good aerially its not funny). We have also recruited to put a plan in place to an extent as well rather than the other way around - particularly the recent focus on pace, fitness and skill. But somewhere in the 2009-2011 period Clarko did a bit of what you're saying - looked and our strengths, came up with a game plan and recruited people to fill in the holes. Its paying off so well now. I'm pumped about this year and looking forward to play Port (along with the Swines and relatively injury free Freo). There's really not a lot to worry about this year is there? We get to see one of the last seasons of some of our favourite players, see a whole bunch of young players putting their hand up and the possibility of three-peat. It rocks being a Hawks supporter ATM.
Yep. The 07-08 game plan essentially was created to cover the teams biggest weakness, defense. So Clarko adopted the full field zone to help cover it. The current game plan is more about exploiting strengths that have been developed through recruitment and trades.

I agree the 09-11 period signalled a massive change for the club. In fact only one player from the 08 GF team was traded for, Croad (and he hardly counts), and every other player was drafted in the ND or PSD. Compare that to the 13-14 teams and you will notice a complete reversal.

But I agree with what you say about some positional players. Having Lake has allowed other defenders to improve their own games because in 10-12 our defenders were constantly required to lend support to each other. They were just simply outsized. Now they can just be more mindful of a direct opponent and have faith that a player like Lake will give an excellent contest even if one on one. So Clarko and the coaching panel can alter the game plan accordingly.
 

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#71
Shoey useless anywhere ,even at box hill.
He speaks highly of you.

Fair dinkum you call a bloke who has just come back from a knee reco and has stayed a Hawk to fight like hell rather than going to another club that he would have got a game week in week out, as useless.

I will tell you what is useless.

Your shit post.
 
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#73
All this talk of Schoey......It would be great to see him excel although reflecting on my last memory of him in the VFL grand final looking like a lost sheep fills me with doubt.
 

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#74
All this talk of Schoey......It would be great to see him excel although reflecting on my last memory of him in the VFL grand final looking like a lost sheep fills me with doubt.
He was awful. The worst thing was his (lack of) leg speed. Someone posted a comment afterwards saying he was suffering from OP. I don't know if that's true, but he was ultra slow in that match (keeping in mind Schoey finished in the top 5 (or 10?) of the repeat sprints at his draft camp).

So he was (quite) fast when he was drafted, but lumbered around like an old school ruckman in the Box Hill GF. Something wrong there.
 

Steven Tyler

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#75
He was awful. The worst thing was his (lack of) leg speed. Someone posted a comment afterwards saying he was suffering from OP. I don't know if that's true, but he was ultra slow in that match (keeping in mind Schoey finished in the top 5 (or 10?) of the repeat sprints at his draft camp).

So he was (quite) fast when he was drafted, but lumbered around like an old school ruckman in the Box Hill GF. Something wrong there.
I'm clinging to the hope that he'd already been told he wasn't in line for a spot in the AFL GF the following week, and played accordingly!
Wishful thinking?
 
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