Training Training Reports, Pics 2017

[Windhover]

I've read numerous times coaches say that it can take a long time to react to a team whose game plan is superior. When Freo dominated years back they dominated most of the year. Clubs didn't know how to stop them. By half time scores were 80-15.

Your example of Freo (presumably in 2015, when they were leading WC 89 to 15 at half-time) does not prove your claim "Clubs didn't know how to stop them." After half-time WC managed to significantly outscore Freo to lose by only 31 points. Worse, when the 2 teams met later in the year (in round 20) WC won by 4 goals after leading all day. So much for not knowing how to be stopped.

I have never heard a coach (whilst still a coach) admit the opposition's game plan was superior. Usually the coach blames the effort, or injuries, or the talent in the team ("we are rebuilding"). The closest a coach would get to admitting their game plan was inferior is to say "It is taking a long time to get the players to play the way we want them to", which is not the same thing you are saying at all.

Clubs train all summer under new coaches but still don't completely bed in new games plans til year 2 sometime.

A coach who has not bedded in a game plan in year 1 shouldn't get a year 2. Sure, yr 2 will have changes to the game plan, but so will year 10. Clarkson has reinvented his game plan for the players available and is clearly on track to do so again minus Mitchell and Lewis.

So stands to reason it is smart to keep clubs guessing as long as possible.

Even if all you have written before reaching this conclusion could be agreed with, the conclusion does not follow, and particularly not in our case. We are at the start of Year 2 of our rebuild. We have no target to play finals this year, let alone win a flag. Any club that can't beat us sight unseen should have no pretensions to being a top 4 Club. Winning this year does NOT matter for our ambition to win a Flag in the future. It only really matters for us fans.

What does follow is that when winning does matter, perhaps in 2017 if McKay, SOJ and Charlie each become the forwards we hope them to be and do so at a precociously young age, other Clubs will have an enormous body of games to pick over to determine our "game plan". And Carlton intra-club games would be about as uninteresting a source of knowledge as could be imagined.

St Kilda, after several years of rebuild, have hopes of playing finals this year. Their intra club game played this year is available to watch for free. IMO St Kilda rightly take the view they have no future if they can't beat clubs when it matters because the game plan as seen from the intra club has been picked apart by the opposition.

IMO not letting the fans (and opposition spies) see the intra club games is mindless secrecy for secrecy's sake and very poor promotion of the Club.
It stems from the same idiocy that leads to injured players being picked when the Club knows full well the player's foot is in a moon boot. It is an insult to the supporters and, perhaps more importantly, an insult to the players.

Wouldn't even surprise to see a club NOT play their proper game in preseason Comp. "just kick it long this weekend".

I agree to the extent that what would surprise me is if any club actually plays their proper game. It looks like St Kilda has picked a team which contains its best 22 (from among the 26 picked) but I doubt the best 22 will get the game time they would get if it was for real.

 

[thylacine60]

starving man found in remote bushland muttering repeatedly "Windy agrees with me...................what now, what now, what now..................."

 

[BluStreak]

I just want Carlton to win real games. IS THAT SO MUCH TO ASK?!

and Where is the team FFS

 

[MightyMighties]

GWS do

They've got a fan. Called the AFL.

 

[FoeverBlues]

and Where is the team FFS

http://www.carltonfc.com.au/sites/Carlton/news/2017-02-23/jlt-1-squad-named

 

[La Dispute]

Even though I disagree with pretty much everything you just said, keep up the good work Windy (Y)

 

[Aphrodite]

and Where is the team FFS

You won't find it it this thread FFS!

 

[ShanDog]

Your example of Freo (presumably in 2015, when they were leading WC 89 to 15 at half-time) does not prove your claim "Clubs didn't know how to stop them." After half-time WC managed to significantly outscore Freo to lose by only 31 points. Worse, when the 2 teams met later in the year (in round 20) WC won by 4 goals after leading all day. So much for not knowing how to be stopped.

I have never heard a coach (whilst still a coach) admit the opposition's game plan was superior. Usually the coach blames the effort, or injuries, or the talent in the team ("we are rebuilding"). The closest a coach would get to admitting their game plan was inferior is to say "It is taking a long time to get the players to play the way we want them to", which is not the same thing you are saying at all.


A coach who has not bedded in a game plan in year 1 shouldn't get a year 2. Sure, yr 2 will have changes to the game plan, but so will year 10. Clarkson has reinvented his game plan for the players available and is clearly on track to do so again minus Mitchell and Lewis.




Even if all you have written before reaching this conclusion could be agreed with, the conclusion does not follow, and particularly not in our case. We are at the start of Year 2 of our rebuild. We have no target to play finals this year, let alone win a flag. Any club that can't beat us sight unseen should have no pretensions to being a top 4 Club. Winning this year does NOT matter for our ambition to win a Flag in the future. It only really matters for us fans.

What does follow is that when winning does matter, perhaps in 2017 if McKay, SOJ and Charlie each become the forwards we hope them to be and do so at a precociously young age, other Clubs will have an enormous body of games to pick over to determine our "game plan". And Carlton intra-club games would be about as uninteresting a source of knowledge as could be imagined.

St Kilda, after several years of rebuild, have hopes of playing finals this year. Their intra club game played this year is available to watch for free. IMO St Kilda rightly take the view they have no future if they can't beat clubs when it matters because the game plan as seen from the intra club has been picked apart by the opposition.

IMO not letting the fans (and opposition spies) see the intra club games is mindless secrecy for secrecy's sake and very poor promotion of the Club.
It stems from the same idiocy that leads to injured players being picked when the Club knows full well the player's foot is in a moon boot. It is an insult to the supporters and, perhaps more importantly, an insult to the players.



I agree to the extent that what would surprise me is if any club actually plays their proper game. It looks like St Kilda has picked a team which contains its best 22 (from among the 26 picked) but I doubt the best 22 will get the game time they would get if it was for real.

You've made some valid points there Windy. To play Devil's advocate for a moment though, you've linked a few things that require a bit of a stretch in logic such as picking players in a moon boot (which I can't recall off the top of my head - when was this?) and making strategic decisions about the visibility of training sessions. If your aim is to highlight poor decisions, then sure, but the latter is very subjective and not really related to the former IMO.

It isn't a popular decision; however, trying to gain every advantage the club can to do the most important thing for a club to do - win games - should be something we get behind. Obviously I am an interstate supporter and don't get to see training (nor bloody games much in the past 5 years... but that's another issue) whereas locals would expect the opportunities to watch and this perhaps makes my opinion biased, but I lean towards being happy Carlton is at least trying something different. I wouldn't go as far as to call it innovation, but making decisions to change things up in hopes of improving results on the field instead of just "doing it the way we always do it" should be applauded, particularly when we have been short on success for some time now.

Supporter engagement has been a big issue for the club for some time (I've even used the topic for university essays in the last couple of years). There has been what I would say is considerable improvement though, and despite this frustration for some supporters, sometimes the "greater good" should take precedence.

Having said all this, the club would want to come out firing in the home and away season or supporter ire would be justified.

 

[ferrisb]

You've made some valid points there Windy. To play Devil's advocate for a moment though, you've linked a few things that require a bit of a stretch in logic such as picking players in a moon boot (which I can't recall off the top of my head - when was this?) and making strategic decisions about the visibility of training sessions. If your aim is to highlight poor decisions, then sure, but the latter is very subjective and not really related to the former IMO.

It isn't a popular decision; however, trying to gain every advantage the club can to do the most important thing for a club to do - win games - should be something we get behind. Obviously I am an interstate supporter and don't get to see training (nor bloody games much in the past 5 years... but that's another issue) whereas locals would expect the opportunities to watch and this perhaps makes my opinion biased, but I lean towards being happy Carlton is at least trying something different. I wouldn't go as far as to call it innovation, but making decisions to change things up in hopes of improving results on the field instead of just "doing it the way we always do it" should be applauded, particularly when we have been short on success for some time now.

Supporter engagement has been a big issue for the club for some time (I've even used the topic for university essays in the last couple of years). There has been what I would say is considerable improvement though, and despite this frustration for some supporters, sometimes the "greater good" should take precedence.

Having said all this, the club would want to come out firing in the home and away season or supporter ire would be justified.

Did you just 'windy' Windy?

 

[ShanDog]

Did you just 'windy' Windy?

Nah mate, I HURRICANED the mother*er!

(Just kidding Windy, please be gentle)

 

[Stefchook]

The OTT letters to board members, OTT whining and entitlement-complex is what I'm referring to. But go on complaining about how you couldn't see a compromised, shortened internal simulation game.

Yet another clear and powerful argument.

So if you're a fan of the new regime. But you dare to question one of their policies. Then you must be complaining. And you've suddenly started writing hysterical letters to the board. And you've surrendered to over-the-top whining. And if that's not enough you also have an entitlement-complex. With such masterful psychological insight I can only assume you're a professor of psychiatry. Am I right?

By all means, support this particular policy. But see if you can manage to do it without hysterical, over-the-top complaining against those who disagree with you.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Let's agree to disagree.

EFP (edited for peace)

 

[La Dispute]

Yet another clear and powerful argument.

So if you're a fan of the new regime. But you dare to question one of their policies. Then you must be complaining. And you've suddenly started writing hysterical letters to the board. And you've surrendered to over-the-top whining. And if that's not enough you also have an entitlement-complex. With such masterful psychological insight I can only assume you're a professor of psychiatry. Am I right?

By all means, support this particular policy. But see if you can manage to do it without hysterical, over-the-top complaining against those who disagree with you.

See the letter from two pages ago to get some insight. That kind of sentiment is being shared by many in this thread.

It's not a matter of questioning the regime as it is doing the most pragmatic thing in the best interests of the playing group and the club as a whole. That should override cagey supporters looking to get any fix they can before the season commences.

We don't know why they've taken this approach, but it won't be without plausible explanation, and until we know exactly what those reasons are, it's not worth getting huffy/entitled/what a waste of taxpayer dollars about it.

Again - you won't ever consider it come Saturday

 

[Lace_Out]

I feel for the fans that want to go watch training but at the same time I am wrapped with how competitive our coach holding closed session after closed session. I think we all agree its great to have a coach who wants to win that bad.

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[1981]

Your example of Freo (presumably in 2015, when they were leading WC 89 to 15 at half-time) does not prove your claim "Clubs didn't know how to stop them." After half-time WC managed to significantly outscore Freo to lose by only 31 points. Worse, when the 2 teams met later in the year (in round 20) WC won by 4 goals after leading all day. So much for not knowing how to be stopped.

I have never heard a coach (whilst still a coach) admit the opposition's game plan was superior. Usually the coach blames the effort, or injuries, or the talent in the team ("we are rebuilding"). The closest a coach would get to admitting their game plan was inferior is to say "It is taking a long time to get the players to play the way we want them to", which is not the same thing you are saying at all.


A coach who has not bedded in a game plan in year 1 shouldn't get a year 2. Sure, yr 2 will have changes to the game plan, but so will year 10. Clarkson has reinvented his game plan for the players available and is clearly on track to do so again minus Mitchell and Lewis.




Even if all you have written before reaching this conclusion could be agreed with, the conclusion does not follow, and particularly not in our case. We are at the start of Year 2 of our rebuild. We have no target to play finals this year, let alone win a flag. Any club that can't beat us sight unseen should have no pretensions to being a top 4 Club. Winning this year does NOT matter for our ambition to win a Flag in the future. It only really matters for us fans.

What does follow is that when winning does matter, perhaps in 2017 if McKay, SOJ and Charlie each become the forwards we hope them to be and do so at a precociously young age, other Clubs will have an enormous body of games to pick over to determine our "game plan". And Carlton intra-club games would be about as uninteresting a source of knowledge as could be imagined.

St Kilda, after several years of rebuild, have hopes of playing finals this year. Their intra club game played this year is available to watch for free. IMO St Kilda rightly take the view they have no future if they can't beat clubs when it matters because the game plan as seen from the intra club has been picked apart by the opposition.

IMO not letting the fans (and opposition spies) see the intra club games is mindless secrecy for secrecy's sake and very poor promotion of the Club.
It stems from the same idiocy that leads to injured players being picked when the Club knows full well the player's foot is in a moon boot. It is an insult to the supporters and, perhaps more importantly, an insult to the players.



I agree to the extent that what would surprise me is if any club actually plays their proper game. It looks like St Kilda has picked a team which contains its best 22 (from among the 26 picked) but I doubt the best 22 will get the game time they would get if it was for real.

Sorry to tell you but I read about 1 line of your post above, that's all.

 

[onesilop]

If they are trying to balance secrecy with fan engagement, then perhaps invite x hundred fans to closed training sessions each week. The people selected have to enter a ballot by paying up as a member before preseason and entering dates your available. This one session a week could be a basic skills session instead of match sim.

I see this as a two part benefit more members sign up early, and you make those members feel special for that week the entire fanbase feels engaged as I'm sure reports would filter out. All that without giving up a competitive advantage real or not....

 

[1981]

Would be awesome if we could beat Richmond come round 1. We were so close last year.

Totally.

They're a terribly overrated side.

Interestingly, driving about half an hour ago I heard a snippet of Hardwick on SEN, and made me think that he might be on borrowed time. He's been there a fair while now hasn't he, and had no real success.

 

[agro]

Totally.

They're a terribly overrated side.

Interestingly, driving about half an hour ago I heard a snippet of Hardwick on SEN, and made me think that he might be on borrowed time. He's been there a fair while now hasn't he, and had no real success.

He's had not quite as much success as Brett Ratten.

 

[RedFury]

Totally.

They're a terribly overrated side.

Interestingly, driving about half an hour ago I heard a snippet of Hardwick on SEN, and made me think that he might be on borrowed time. He's been there a fair while now hasn't he, and had no real success.

If by a 'fair while' you mean longer than any coach in AFL/VFL history with his comparative level of success (0 finals wins) then .... yes, yes he has been there a fair while.

 

[Windhover]

You've made some valid points there Windy. To play Devil's advocate for a moment though, you've linked a few things that require a bit of a stretch in logic such as picking players in a moon boot (which I can't recall off the top of my head - when was this?)

"Picking players in a moon boot" is an exaggerated fact for effect. The unexaggerated fact is that we have picked players to play that were known to be unfit. I can't recall the player but not so long ago (under MM) one player (it might have been Murph) was interviewed before the teams came out and said he wasn't playing because of his injury and then had to look stupid when he appeared named in the selected side.

. . . and making strategic decisions about the visibility of training sessions. If your aim is to highlight poor decisions, then sure, but the latter is very subjective and not really related to the former IMO.

Hiding game plan by restricting access to training comes from the same "creative" mental space as picking players who won't play. In each case there is a perception that somehow we are gaining an advantage by hiding the truth. At the current state of our development the perception in each case is entirely without foundation. There is NO advantage, unless pissing off supporters can be considered as such.

It isn't a popular decision; however, trying to gain every advantage the club can to do the most important thing for a club to do - win games - should be something we get behind.

The most important thing for the club to do IS NOT WIN GAMES, it is to win the Flag. At our stage of development, however much fun it is to win games, winning games SHOULD NOT take priority over developing a game plan (which might not work just yet) and players who can subsequently win us a Flag.

You say that hiding our intra club game is an effort to gain an advantage. You may be right. Perhaps if Richmond had a spy at the ground he/she would have observed something not seen in any of our 3 practice matches. Perhaps the spy would have told Hardwick. Perhaps, in the dying minutes of a close game, armed with that knowledge the Tigers beat us in Round 1. To say the advantage is "tenuous" to the result of the game is higher than I would describe it (I prefer "nebulous" or "miniscule"). But one thing is for certain, whether we win or lose against Richmond in round 1 this year will have no bearing on whether we win a flag with the current crop (although obviously if we flog them by 150 points it will much improve the confidence that we might win a flag).

Rather than rely on "tricks", how about we let our game plan be road tested from the get go. Let the opposition know what it is and see how they combat it. Then we will know (like Hawthorn in 2015) we have a game plan that will stand the most rigorous scrutiny. A game plan that succeeds only because it takes a half-witted opponent by surprise is less than useless.

Obviously I am an interstate supporter and don't get to see training (nor bloody games much in the past 5 years... but that's another issue) whereas locals would expect the opportunities to watch and this perhaps makes my opinion biased, but I lean towards being happy Carlton is at least trying something different. I wouldn't go as far as to call it innovation, but making decisions to change things up in hopes of improving results on the field instead of just "doing it the way we always do it" should be applauded, particularly when we have been short on success for some time now.

IMO pointless secrecy has been precisely how we have been doing it for far too long. We are trying to gain a cheap temporary advantage over long term success.

Supporter engagement has been a big issue for the club for some time (I've even used the topic for university essays in the last couple of years). There has been what I would say is considerable improvement though, and despite this frustration for some supporters, sometimes the "greater good" should take precedence.

Anything that tends to improve our chances of a flag should take precedence over supporter engagement undoubtedly. But the case made here is IMO weak to non-existent.

Having said all this, the club would want to come out firing in the home and away season or supporter ire would be justified.

Nail on head. Bang.

The "nail" is, as you rightly infer, that the Club by hiding the game plan are pretending that this is being done to increase our prospects of success this year. This is almost completely contrary to everything the Club has said and done since the departure of MM to take the long approach to building a team for a flag in the future (the exception is the recruitment of Alex Silvagni).

The consequence is that supporters who read that message of success for this year will become irate and frustrated if/when the Club performs poorly, even if the future with SOJ, McKay and Charlie looks fantastic.

The same frustration and anger that can be expected from supporters (like Soapy) who are smitten by the belief (against all evidence) that we have any depth on our list for this year.

The reality is that supporters should be looking at players and performances from the perspective of what tomorrow may bring. I am sure we are going to win some games somewhere but I really struggle to have any confidence as to which team(s) we will actually beat.

 

[La Dispute]

The fact is we don't know why the intra-club was closed, so why speculate? It could be a myriad of factors which we haven't considered. Whatever the reason is, the club feels it is important enough. it's not worth reacting to.

The same frustration and anger that can be expected from supporters (like Soapy) who are smitten by the belief (against all evidence) that we have any depth on our list for this year.

Triggered.

 

[TD2010]

There's going to be some fast, exciting football played when we do see them. The risk now would be over-hype, puff pieces. I can't wait to see them and they will turn a few heads once they are out in the park. From Saturday to round 1 there's a month to reveal the new Blues. I think they're letting momentum build nicely.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Love the Drake]

I couldn't give a rats toss if the club has closed training sessions & intra clubs.

For the last 15 years we have been starved of a hungry, dedicated team playing with a modern game plan.this might be the turning point.

Bolts obviously has made a few changes to his personnel, game plan and most probably playing positions. He is taking every advantage he can.

Although we've been starved of footy, it is only the pre-season. We are now only two days off. Can't wait...Go Blues!!!

 

[Windhover]

The fact is we don't know why the intra-club was closed, so why speculate? It could be a myriad of factors which we haven't considered.

Hmmm. are there so many possible reasons why the intra-club was closed? BB is shy maybe? Army was unhappy with his haircut?

I can think of one very suspect reason. I can't think of any others so it is difficult to agree it is speculation.

Whatever the reason is, the club feels it is important enough. it's not worth reacting to.

The reasons for commenting ("reacting") are as follows:

1. Having a closed intra club gives rise to the inference that "something" important for our success is going on that needs, for that success, to be kept secret. This is a completely false inference. It leads to unwarranted supporter expectations and, to the extent it actually hides some part of our game plan, means that to that extent our game plan will not be tested as thoroughly as it will be on GF day, when it really matters.

2. Having a closed intra club disengages the supporter base. It is hard to get excited about Polson or SPS or Cuningham when there is so little to feed that excitement.

 

[1981]

We won what? 6 from 7 at one stage last year? that shows we can win games, and we have added to the list considerably since then so there's every reason to expect we can win more games this year.

Developing a winning culture is very important. That might be challenging when you are also building a young team, but at some stage the penny will drop and the relatively young team will start winning more than they lose and will have developed a mindset where they expect to win.