Training @ Skilled 26/1

[sarah.13]

Ten clangers means turnovers which in theory could mean 10 scoring shots to the opposition.. OUCH !!! P.S. If Prismall was to get as much game time i"m sure his possesion stats would increase accordingly.

 

[Asty]

True ... however lets face the truth of the matter -

Ling getting 30 possessions (lets assume 15 kicks and 15 handballs) his handballs normally hit targets, and of his 15 kicks, maybe 6 will be forward and 9 will be either short or sideways.

Prismall (for example) will get 15 possessions and at best, hit 10-12 targets.

It is still better having Ling actually getting the football twice as much and chipping it to a player such as Hunt, Chapman, Ablett and co who can do something constructive. Sure if he stuffs up or kicks short with 10 of his 30 possessions - thats still 10 more times he's got the ball attempting to make something - 10 times the chance he could hit a target than Prismall who frankly just doesnt get enough of the pill when the game is there to be won.

30 possessions with 10 clangers is still better than 15 possessions with 2-3 clangers. Until our so called young guns Prismall, Stokes, Gamble, Tenace and even Rooke (Ling can tag also - anyone with endurance can do this role well - lets not get too caried away with the Max hysteria) learn to win the ball sufficiently at crunch stages of the game - Ling will still get the nod ahead of these players.

Ok even if we agree with the assumptions made in your calculations (clanger to possession ratios etc) this still doesn't take into consideration that one player will turn over the ball parallel to where he recieved it and the other will turn it over 40m further away from the opposition goals. I think rooke and stokes have used the ball well at both vfl and afl levels and would probably have a clanger rate that is better than lings.

Yes ling can tag and is better in that role as in a creative role he is not good at all but in the past few seasons rooke has been given the main tagging roles ahead of him eg. Judd and Goodes. doesn't this suggest that rooke may now be the teams premier tagger? if so do we need two dedicated taggers in the one team when Corey, Enright, Milburn, D.Johnson etc are all capable of playing a defensive role while also using the ball in a more direct manner.

I was a ling fan a couple of seasons back when he was playing the defensive midfield role but I think the increase of speed through teams midfields has found him out a little this is why some have suggested moving him forward but at whos expense and will that work as a permanent move rather than just a suprise tactic? (personally I think it may work for one or two games but not over the course of a season)

- that said if he does start getting the ball in and under and using to release our runners then I will be back on his wagon

 

[Rosso]

Hopefully this year blokes upfield will lead harder and create space therefore giving players such as Ling an alternative to being forced to kick sideways. Modern day football is about getting numbers behind the ball so your forwards have to work twice as hard to get the ball. That's what makes guys like Brown, Hall, Reiwoldt ect so good is because they constantly present themselves.

Without doubt we play better with Moons at CHF because he wants and demands the ball to be kicked to him. If the rest of the forward line can present consistantly and demand the ball like Moons then I have no doubt you'll see Dinga's kicking improve dramatically.

 

[Boundary-Rider]

Gotta think you are being generous, many of lings handballs are directed at the feet of the intended receiver, hits target not a good possession. His kicks gerneally lack depth even his 15 sideways chip. Many of these fail to travel the distance so the intended receiver has to take the ball either on the bounce or too low to get an advantage.

Me i rfate ling with 15 kicks & 15 handballs as most likely only a ten to fifteen effective possession player. More imp[ortantly his turnovers really hurt as his teammates have no protection when a t/o occurs and the opposing team kisks goals. So the turnover is bad enoug but the six points hurts more.

True ... however lets face the truth of the matter -

Ling getting 30 possessions (lets assume 15 kicks and 15 handballs) his handballs normally hit targets, and of his 15 kicks, maybe 6 will be forward and 9 will be either short or sideways.

Prismall (for example) will get 15 possessions and at best, hit 10-12 targets.

It is still better having Ling actually getting the football twice as much and chipping it to a player such as Hunt, Chapman, Ablett and co who can do something constructive. Sure if he stuffs up or kicks short with 10 of his 30 possessions - thats still 10 more times he's got the ball attempting to make something - 10 times the chance he could hit a target than Prismall who frankly just doesnt get enough of the pill when the game is there to be won.

30 possessions with 10 clangers is still better than 15 possessions with 2-3 clangers. Until our so called young guns Prismall, Stokes, Gamble, Tenace and even Rooke (Ling can tag also - anyone with endurance can do this role well - lets not get too caried away with the Max hysteria) learn to win the ball sufficiently at crunch stages of the game - Ling will still get the nod ahead of these players.

 

[catempire]

Some fairly poor estimates of stats being thrown around here.

Ling commits errors in 10% of his possessions. That ranks second in the team only behind Prismall (9%).

That compares very favourably with the likes of G Ablett (20%), Mooney (23%) and Ottens (24%).

Source: www.pro-stats.com.au calculated from average errors per game and average possessions per game.

 

[Stoney]

sorry we dont all have prostats on our favourites list. lol.

Ling doesnt turn the ball over as much as people blow it out of proportion on this board - but i was speaking broadly when i said of 30 possession even if he turns it over 10 times he will still have more useful possessions than prismall who has polish, but not consistency (yet) in regularly finding the footy.

 

[someday-somehow]

As good as it feels to say "i told ya'll so" ... Lingy may have been out of YOUR best 22 - but he was never out of OUR best 22.

Kels was in bad form last season - at his best (granted all players at their best) he would clearly be ahead of Prismall, Stokes, Gamble and all those boys who were getting game time at Kel's expense late in 2006. He is an exceptional footballer regardless of what people on this board are trying to convince themselves otherwise.

Bit of a reality check here Stoney..Ling has some exceptional qualities (endurance for one) but he caused many a turnover last year trying to be a playmaker, he should stick to the role of tagger and running off his opponent he is damaging.
As for Kelly well most never doubted his talents, I certainly didn't, he is a gifted midfielder but I question his attitude and his accountability, don't question how well he did last year or any year without questioning how well his direct opponent did. I hope like hell he turns that around because he will be one very big asset for the GFC if he does.

 

[someday-somehow]

sorry we dont all have prostats on our favourites list. lol.

Ling doesnt turn the ball over as much as people blow it out of proportion on this board - but i was speaking broadly when i said of 30 possession even if he turns it over 10 times he will still have more useful possessions than prismall who has polish, but not consistency (yet) in regularly finding the footy.

What costs a side more...less possessions or turnovers?

 

[Asty]

- that said if he does start getting the ball in and under and using to release our runners then I will be back on his wagon

http://www.pro-stats.com.au/psw/web/player_career?pid=20134

2006
less contested possessions than previous years
more rebound 50 and less inside 50(maybe he is in the back 50 too much as too slow to provide run from there)

these could be some of the reasons a few of us fell off him this year as he had the reputation as a work horse and these point more to meaningless possies across the 1/2 back.

 

[DanA]

People are being a little harsh on Ling. I think he played a relatively good season. However I agree he should not be used for first possesion from the kickouts. I am sure that was either a set play or something opposition teams were trying to promote. Take that out of his game and he had a good season.

 

[Partridge]

Ling doesnt turn the ball over as much as people blow it out of proportion on this board - but i was speaking broadly when i said of 30 possession even if he turns it over 10 times he will still have more useful possessions than prismall who has polish, but not consistency (yet) in regularly finding the footy.

Even forgetting the possession argument - which I disagree with - you're forgetting one other flaw in his game. Pace. Everyone on this board constantly complains about our midfield speed, well Ling is by far our slowest player. While he is out there it means his opponent is normally racking up possessions while he huffs and puffs, shouts at teammates and points for them to pick up his man that he's too slow to catch.

If Bartel, Corey, and co can all be criticised for lack of pace put Ling at the top of the list. Take him out, put Tenace in and how much faster do we instantly look.

 

[WE Are Geelong]

As good as it feels to say "i told ya'll so" ... Lingy may have been out of YOUR best 22 - but he was never out of OUR best 22.

Kels was in bad form last season - at his best (granted all players at their best) he would clearly be ahead of Prismall, Stokes, Gamble and all those boys who were getting game time at Kel's expense late in 2006. He is an exceptional footballer regardless of what people on this board are trying to convince themselves otherwise.

Relax mate. I was impressed with both Ling and Kelly as I mentioned but in terms of comparing that form to actual match conditions....you are getting carried away....this is why too much expectation gets placed on players down there because people see something and start talking the way you are now. Just give the guys time to find their feet this season, they both had below par seasons last year so I am happy to say they look better than they did last year....but lets wait and see from here....it might be good if you get a sighter of their form yourself before you start making assumptions based on what someone else has reported...saying 'i told you so' to everyone 2 months before a season even starts doesnt make sense to me...

 

[grantyc77]

Im like most others i believe Ling should be used as a run with tagger, behind Rooke he is the best tagger we have, should be trying to mould like a kirk i believe. I really hope Kelly has a good yr, as someone else mentioned it wouls certainly enhance our chances for finals if that happens.

 

[Stoney]

Bit of a reality check here Stoney..Ling has some exceptional qualities (endurance for one) but he caused many a turnover last year trying to be a playmaker, he should stick to the role of tagger and running off his opponent he is damaging.
As for Kelly well most never doubted his talents, I certainly didn't, he is a gifted midfielder but I question his attitude and his accountability, don't question how well he did last year or any year without questioning how well his direct opponent did. I hope like hell he turns that around because he will be one very big asset for the GFC if he does.

Bit of reality check? Why dosnt everyone give me a "reality check" when Ling finally gets dropped - its never going to happen!

 

[Stoney]

What costs a side more...less possessions or turnovers?

Sure you have a point, but what wins a game ... having possession of the footy or running around looking timid? At least Lingy can get the ball for our side - Prismall is so far behind him in this respect its not funny.

 

[Stoney]

Even forgetting the possession argument - which I disagree with - you're forgetting one other flaw in his game. Pace. Everyone on this board constantly complains about our midfield speed, well Ling is by far our slowest player. While he is out there it means his opponent is normally racking up possessions while he huffs and puffs, shouts at teammates and points for them to pick up his man that he's too slow to catch.

If Bartel, Corey, and co can all be criticised for lack of pace put Ling at the top of the list. Take him out, put Tenace in and how much faster do we instantly look.

Ling is by far our slowest player? Anyone got his time trials from the last 5 pre seasons? Im pretty sure he's our quickest over long distances - but he's not a burst player. Even without an incredible take off - theres room enough for any man who can maintain a consistent pace for 4 quarters of football. Robert Harvey is a prime example!

 

[Stoney]

Relax mate. I was impressed with both Ling and Kelly as I mentioned but in terms of comparing that form to actual match conditions....you are getting carried away....this is why too much expectation gets placed on players down there because people see something and start talking the way you are now. Just give the guys time to find their feet this season, they both had below par seasons last year so I am happy to say they look better than they did last year....but lets wait and see from here....it might be good if you get a sighter of their form yourself before you start making assumptions based on what someone else has reported...saying 'i told you so' to everyone 2 months before a season even starts doesnt make sense to me...

Im pretty sure I was there watching Kels in the ressies while everyone else couldnt give a stuff about the VFL when he was dropped. And Im pretty sure Iv seen enough AFL games of him - roughly 70% of his total matches Iv seen (30% from the grand stand). So dont tell me "maybe ud wana get down there and judge for yourself"

Kels was a scapegoat for our midfield pounding! Sure he was below par (but who the ******** wasnt besides Chapman and Ablett in 2006???).

Im not placing any unreal expectations on him - stating that both he and Lingy are clearly in our best 22 is not a bold expectation - and I think that both these players have this expectation placed upon themseleves as their minimum objective in 2007 is to be playing senior footy - if u think this is too greater an expectation for me to have of these talented footballers then u obviously dont have much of an idea.

And I havnt based my decision on Kels from one person's opinion u goof! If u havnt noticed Iv constantly defended him as I have always believed that he is one of our most promising players on our list. When he comes good everyone will jump back on the bandwagon ... Just like everyone loved Lingy up until 2006 - statistically he still had a good year, but because he didnt have confidence to kick long to players who frankly arnt good enough to take a pack mark (Kingsley, N Ablett) he gets critisised!

 

[sarah.13]

Ling is by far our slowest player? Anyone got his time trials from the last 5 pre seasons? Im pretty sure he's our quickest over long distances - but he's not a burst player. Even without an incredible take off - theres room enough for any man who can maintain a consistent pace for 4 quarters of football. Robert Harvey is a prime example!

Surely you jest? You can't be comparing Ling to harvey. Harvey still has a lot more tricks up his sleeves than Ling will ever have, and his 36 years old!

 

[WE Are Geelong]

Im pretty sure I was there watching Kels in the ressies while everyone else couldnt give a stuff about the VFL when he was dropped. And Im pretty sure Iv seen enough AFL games of him - roughly 70% of his total matches Iv seen (30% from the grand stand). So dont tell me "maybe ud wana get down there and judge for yourself"

Kels was a scapegoat for our midfield pounding! Sure he was below par (but who the ******** wasnt besides Chapman and Ablett in 2006???).

Im not placing any unreal expectations on him - stating that both he and Lingy are clearly in our best 22 is not a bold expectation - and I think that both these players have this expectation placed upon themseleves as their minimum objective in 2007 is to be playing senior footy - if u think this is too greater an expectation for me to have of these talented footballers then u obviously dont have much of an idea.

And I havnt based my decision on Kels from one person's opinion u goof! If u havnt noticed Iv constantly defended him as I have always believed that he is one of our most promising players on our list. When he comes good everyone will jump back on the bandwagon ... Just like everyone loved Lingy up until 2006 - statistically he still had a good year, but because he didnt have confidence to kick long to players who frankly arnt good enough to take a pack mark (Kingsley, N Ablett) he gets critisised!

All Geelong supporters are martyrs mate....so what makes you so special? Oh, you're the only one that cares....ok got it...

Kelly wasnt a scape goat last season....he deserved to be dropped and was dropped ...fullstop.

I want them to be better than just in our best 22. I hope they can be stars of the competition, we need them to be...are they?

So you are basing your opinion of Kelly on what then? Last season...that was a joke season...2005?..or prior to him breaking his leg? What relevance does that have to now...the here and now? If you havent seen him for yourself...you dont know what you are talking about. I was impressed with his body language, his enthusiam and seriousness towards the task at hand. He still has to become a premier midfielder in the AFL mate...he hasnt done that yet and you talking him up won't help him in any way shape or form...I hope he does it firstly for his own sake and then that will benefit the club but thats a long way to go from here...he is not an established star of the competition nor is he in our starting midfield as we speak...lots to do and words mean nothing.

The Ling of last season...would not make my team this year...no. I dont think he was half the player he was in 2004. You dont understand the point I am making or you dont want to understand. He was too slow and did turn the ball over far too much and he kicked it sideways. I am happy to say he looks far better from what I saw last season...isnt it very early days though mate?

I am saying you are overreacting...and I havent changed my mind.


Personally, I like Ling and Kelly. I want them to succeed. I hope they do...I hope the club prospers as a result....but it's not as easy as it looks in pre season.

 

[GeeCat]

Yeah, pretty much agree with the above ^

Kel has the talent to succeed, but it's time the ego went and he seriously knuckled down. From all reports he's doing so this pre-season, but we've heard that all before. If he can get going, it won't be a simple matter of 'jumping back on the bandwagon', because let's face it, he hasn't done much for a long while. Throw the broken leg excuse, but he's deserved most of the crap he's copped (as far as criticism goes) and the demotions that have come his way.

 

[grantyc77]

This has been done to death... The Jury is out on them both and only time will tell... I hope for the GFC that they return to there best, we will soon see...