Review Training standards / skills and fitness

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ferball

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Jul 24, 2015
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pre season is where they wouldve had to do the hard and heavy training, hence why all the videos in season are proably at half track because the focus is recovery so they can play on the weekend as opposed to flogging them like in pre season.

if anything, that means that they need to be working more on their skills in season but they are still deplorable.

if Gav Brown is still the skills coach and has been for the last 9 years as sugested on another thread, id be suggesting that we need an overhaul there because they havent got any better
Pretty sure Brown is development coach. I've been trying to find out who the skills coach is since 2016 but haven't ever got an answer.
 

The acurate one

Norm Smith Medallist
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The acurate one you were suggesting 3 of the best, Old Boy ?

Yeah, it’s a s**t sandwich, but you can either feel sorry for yourself in our current state, or get cracking.

Well we no longer listen to the Wales rooting or was that whales, I never did find out.

But alas I 'm unsure as to what you're alluding to? I'm a simple man with a negotiated yr 10 pass let's not forget.
 

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Sphynx

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Has anyone gone to training?
All the videos the club post we are either stuffing around or going at half intensity. This might just be a coincidence, but I’ve never seen us going flat sticks in any sort of social posts etc.
Ive queried this for a while......sides like the Braves and Swans etc flick the ball round at absolute pace. We rarely do this in games.
We also rarely have that quick overlap runner flying past after a mark or free, taking advantage of the stand rule.
What are we doing at training? I’d seriously love to know from track watchers. Something ain’t right with our skill set

I saw plenty of sessions and this was my observation from Feb.

I can’t quite articulate how s**t the skills have been tbh. Quite embarrassing actually

Ok some thoughts from todays session (my 4th session so far this preseason):

As mentioned, it was wet, but no excuse for the general skill level on show. We are still an extremely young group and I think anyone thinking we are climbing out of the bottom 5 is being a bit optimistic. I think we will be in and around the bottom 4 again for sure.

To paint the picture, there was an end to end drill where you had to transition it to the full forward. It wasn't a "the ball hits the ground and it's a turnover" type drill either. Basic contact work and play on when the ball was missqued. It was pseudo match practice. I don't think the ball hit either of the teams full-forward at either end for about 6-7 minutes as the ball just kept getting turned over every 2nd possession through the arcs. When Tarryn finally hit the full forward lace out he dropped the chest mark :drunk:
 

Horizons_00

Norm Smith Medallist
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Skills under pressure
Skills under fatigue

Two very different scenarios that both need to be trained for.

Skills under pressure

I posted this in the VFL thread the other day. Not my words but in the context of this thread, pressure can be self imposed or external. Either way if the players are uncertain what to do it can lead to skill errors.

"Elite players feel confident in games when there´s clarity in the game plan & they have options for different scenarios. IMO on elite level: Tactical coaching > motivational speeches"

“you do not rise to the level of your goals; you fall to the level of your systems.”

"You sink to the automation of your training."


Basically saying under pressure you're on auto pilot. Until then you are prone to making mistakes (skills or decision making) In fact it is saying in a way there is no decision making... not enough time. You just know what to do and your team mates just know what you're going to do. That predictability in each other is key. Currently that is not there.

Skills under fatigue (i.e. fitness)

Even from a solid or even good base it can take multiple years to build to elite. And when a program changes it can take further years to adapt and see the benefits. Literally years. There are no short cuts here. I can't emphasise this enough. The rate at which individuals mature plays a part too. But even then that is more their ability to cope with the load as opposed to maximising their capability. It still will take them years to hit their peak.

The other conflating point is people are complex adaptive systems. And what works for one person does not necessarily work for another - for both handling pressure and/or fatigue. This is saying how people learn, adapt and execute is different. And trying to change how an athlete moves naturally may be good or bad... You just don't know till you actually do it. (You could spend hours down this rabbit hole)

Very broadly in sports you can have two types of approaches - system or tailored. For system coaches they have their philosophy and god help me that is what will deliver results. For tailored it is a case of figuring out what works best for the person or team. Both have their pros and cons. And the reality is most approaches end up being a hybrid of some kind.

Personally I have no idea where our football and fitness programs lie on this scale and how they intersect. For mine we are way beyond the see ball, get ball mentality. We now know enough about elite performance (game style, pressure, fatigue - skills) that there is a tremendous amount that goes into success.

Point is - it takes years and years. And if you keep changing too soon you never realise the benefits (you cash out too soon and you're return is less) - you need to commit to a program (based on sound evidence - the best information you have, risk appetite etc) and persist. That's not to say you don't adjust and embed flexibility but it has to be within the parameters of the base program.

Of course if you bet wrong. Well there you go. You need to start again. Failure is our best teacher.

Great post.

Sorry if already posted, does anyone know whether we are training any differently under Noble? Like have we had a overhaul of the program, so the players can get used to the new change (agree, will take years)
 

Sphynx

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Great post.

Sorry if already posted, does anyone know whether we are training any differently under Noble? Like have we had a overhaul of the program, so the players can get used to the new change (agree, will take years)

They were doing a hell of a lot of training under fatigue.

The worrying thing is, it appeared like he was flogging them a lot harder this pre-season to previous ones with running.

Hasn't translated to games and we still look off the pace compared to other sides.

Unfortunately, we might have to consider Option C - Our best players are just naturally poor users (Simpkin, LDU etc) and no amount of training or coaching will change it.
 

Scottroo

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Aidan Corr and Jy Simpkin playing golf the day after a match of AFL footy, suggest we have the best recovery team in the AFL or our players aren’t going in hard enough …
 

the big lebowski

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I’d also love to know the date our senior players returned to offical training in pre season vs the finalists. I seem to remember that we had senior players return to training early December, the same time as premiership winning Melbourne
 

The acurate one

Norm Smith Medallist
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I’d also love to know the date our senior players returned to offical training in pre season vs the finalists. I seem to remember that we had senior players return to training early December, the same time as premiership winning Melbourne

In fairness they had watched the GF on tele. So that qualifies you for the late start.
 

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joegreen

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Great post.

Sorry if already posted, does anyone know whether we are training any differently under Noble? Like have we had a overhaul of the program, so the players can get used to the new change (agree, will take years)
Thanks.

The other point worth mentioning is knowing or recognising when to change, to what extent or if at all. A slight variation or admit defeat and do a complete reset or somewhere in-between? For every example of change bringing success there is another of sticking fat and it working in the long run.

You must always play the long game.

It's not blind faith either. You need to know what success looks like, but better you've delivered success. Even then the variables at one club at a point in time are vastly different to another.

So how do you know? If you have based your program on sound evidence, done the work/research/planning you'll have indicators of progress or measure of success - whatever you want to call them. Milestones that tell you whether and where the improvement or regression is.

Noble was asked this at the presser and stated they had internal metrics pointing to improvement in some areas. This is good - not so much that he said there was improvement (yes, that's good, but not my point). It's the fact they are measuring it and know what they are measuring. Hard to improve without measurement. First time I've heard him refer to internal metrics - this is what he will be held to account to. ((I'd love to know what they are so I can play along at home))

FWIW without knowing the specifics, and IMHO, I see Noble and his team putting in place the system and framework to improve, track that improvement over time and be accountable. He strikes me as that type of person. And when and if it is clear (measured against internal benchmarks) that things are not working, I suspect Noble will be the first to put his hand up. He is genuine in wanting us to succeed and I see him as altruistic. As said just my view.

I'm as frustrated as anyone seeing our performances, but having some understanding in this space gives me confidence we have a good operator, who has put in place a well thought out plan (just from the snippets I've picked up and some people who've worked with Noble previously at the Lions). Yes the plan is being tested as all plans are. (I love the Tyson quote - everyone has a plan till they get punched in the face!).

It's still very early in the rebuild.

Edit to add: My advice is patience grasshopper... wax on, wax off. Sometimes you don't realise you are improving... All of a sudden it clicks and years of hard work is seen as an overnight success.
 
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The Lone Latic

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Pretty sure Brown is development coach. I've been trying to find out who the skills coach is since 2016 but haven't ever got an answer.
And how many of our youngsters have developed into top tier players? I'd answer less than 10% during ups entire tenure and if that's not sack worthy, then I don't know what is.

Do we even have a skills coach? Because the lack therefore would answer so many things
 

Themanbun

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When Will Phil and Powelly started running a handball class, at the time I thought "that's grouse that these two young blokes are doing this."

In hindsight it's kinda f'ed that two first year players identified a skills deficiency and rather than the coaches fixing it, they took it upon themselves.
 

ferball

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And how many of our youngsters have developed into top tier players? I'd answer less than 10% during ups entire tenure and if that's not sack worthy, then I don't know what is.

Do we even have a skills coach? Because the lack therefore would answer so many things
I don't think so. I've never seen anyone on the coaching list with that responsibility.
 

ferball

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When Will Phil and Powelly started running a handball class, at the time I thought "that's grouse that these two young blokes are doing this."

In hindsight it's kinda f'ed that two first year players identified a skills deficiency and rather than the coaches fixing it, they took it upon themselves.
Yeah.

But... (sorry to keep doing this)

Last year Noble said that he was encouraging players to take responsibility for things themselves. So maybe this is happening in the context of that sort of process. IE The coaches getting them to do it.











Or maybe its what's causing the supposed tension between Powell and Noble (if it exists.)
 

RossHenshaw

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I reckon over the next few years we need to bulk up some of our players.

Especially while they’re young
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Horizons_00

Norm Smith Medallist
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It’s fairly obvious that there are no consistent standards at this club.

This has been a issue for so long now. As we can see it hasn’t been addressed.

Our training and gym workouts are woeful in comparison to other clubs. So many players haven’t put on a kilo of muscle and are weak. It’s so obvious with the 4th quarter fade outs too. We can barely finish the 3rd quarter nowadays.

No matter what players or coach we have it won’t make any difference if we don’t get this right or at least improve.
 

the flying ham

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This has been a issue for so long now. As we can see it hasn’t been addressed.

Our training and gym workouts are woeful in comparison to other clubs. So many players haven’t put on a kilo of muscle and are weak. It’s so obvious with the 4th quarter fade outs too. We can barely finish the 3rd quarter nowadays.

No matter what players or coach we have it won’t make any difference if we don’t get this right or at least improve.

Ffs horizons our fitness was dogshit last year, takes years to build a proper tank. Will be a year or two yet before we build the size and strength required in the kids. How could you possibly make a bold sweeping statement about workouts unless you have compared the two? You are using performance on field as a measure of what S&C does/is doing. They have literally overhauled the s&c program, will take time to see the results, so actually give it time for a change

On SM-A528B using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

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