Training Training Thread

[Brishawk]

Can Sam Mitchell run? No. He can however utilise his strengths to perform different roles for the team.

Also its easy to pull out 2 skinny players that ended up being duds. The problem a player like Clarke has was yes he was skinny, and yes he wasn't very good, and yes he was known as a runner, but the difference is that Clarke was never a footballer. Hartung is a footballer, he has football nous. Clarke couldn't hit a target and couldn't kick further than 40m, this has little to do with body shape. Hartung has other attributes apart from his speed and endurance, although these are undoubtably his strength.

On the flip side, what about a player like Gunston? This is Gunston in his 3rd year. HE IS MEANT TO BE A KPF!!!!

View attachment 198785

Sam Mitchell may not be quick but he runs all day long. He is one of the few midfielders who has averaged at around 90% game time in the past 4 years in our team. Dane Swan averages 80-85% game time across all seasons since 2010.

I agree that Clarke and Greene didn't make it for more than just being skinny. I used them as examples of players who did very well in there first season as skinny outside players who fell away once more pressure to perform was placed on them and their weaknesses were exposed. But also in this thread I showed several players who are successful and they have some common elements to their body shape that Hartung lacks. This doesn't mean Hartung can't make it but he will be doing it without the precedence.

Gunston is a completely different player in size, type etc. etc. He definitely is not a KPF. He is a tall HFF.

Versatility of roles doesn't mean you are not playing to your strengths though...

Quite right but the player must be able to meet the physical demands of multiple positions even if it is in their own way. Burgoyne might not need to run all day playing on the HBF but he needs to run all the time he spends in the midfield. He needs to be able to match players for physical strength when contesting the ball in the centre and around the packs. We could potentially strip him down further to make him a better runner off half back but that could make him less effective in the midfield (as a hypothetical example - Burgoyne is basically super man so it might make no difference ).

 

[The Jet From Poowong]

I was about to say school holidays have started, but I don't think we are dealing with students in this thread.
Ease up guys. It isn't anywhere near the issue it is being made out to be.

Although I will say great gut-runners can be under-appreciated until they are gone.

 

[HR Roughnstuf]

Gunston is a completely different player in size, type etc. etc. He definitely is not a KPF. He is a tall HFF.

Gunston still plays a position that requires strength, particularly upper body. KPF and HFF means nothing in modern AFL anyway. Gunston plays a position that requires strength. You can't say that picture really feels you with confident. That was his third year of AFL football (1st at the Hawks) he has definitely improved since then.

 

[IdiotBox]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that this was a cardinal sin of team uniform designs (may have been in relation to cricket kits) but it seems to be rather prevalent. I'n not a fan either.

and all this time I thought this guy was cardinal sin.

 

[MrPremiership]

A third year midfield player hasnt developed a lot of bulk

#hawthornproblems

 

[Brishawk]

A third year midfield player hasnt developed a lot of bulk

#hawthornproblems

No one has said that.

 

[Bumpswithagrin]

This thread turned a bit nasty

Blame the off season!

 

[MrPremiership]

No one has said that.

Yes they have.

 

[threesixpio]

Blame the off season!

Bloody hell I'd knew you'd say that. You can &$&@&$&&&&£€¥#%

 

[Brishawk]

Gunston still plays a position that requires strength, particularly upper body. KPF and HFF means nothing in modern AFL anyway. Gunston plays a position that requires strength. You can't say that picture really feels you with confident. That was his third year of AFL football (1st at the Hawks) he has definitely improved since then.

All I have ever said is that I was disappointed in the lack of any development and I get called misinformed and ignorant and I should just leave it to the club. I didn't respond by calling people names. Unlike anyone who has responded to me, I have actually used examples of other players. The closest anyone has come is Michael Tuck (who wasn't short and retired 24 years ago) and Gunston who is not even remotely the same kind of player.

Find me a current player that is sub 180cm that is good and doesn't play forward pocket that lacks strength through the core? Every decent player I can think of has visible muscle mass through the hips, gluts and thighs and generally has develop chest and shoulders too.

 

[dcutter]

Look forward to our elite runners come into their own next year with limited rotations.

Our club forecast and planned for the pending interchange cap at least 4-5 years ago now.
We made a real intent on getting endurance and speed through the draft.

I can't wait to see Smith, Hill and Hartung all play together next year and run them off their feet in the latter stages of games.

I don't think we've seen the best of these 3 playing together but the cap should see these guys having an edge on oppenents late in games. And we've got 3 bloody good ones.

 

[Great 2008]

This thread turned a bit nasty

They should lighten up a bit.

 

[HR Roughnstuf]

All I have ever said is that I was disappointed in the lack of any development and I get called misinformed and ignorant and I should just leave it to the club. I didn't respond by calling people names. Unlike anyone who has responded to me, I have actually used examples of other players. The closest anyone has come is Michael Tuck (who wasn't short and retired 24 years ago) and Gunston who is not even remotely the same kind of player.

Find me a current player that is sub 180cm that is good and doesn't play forward pocket that lacks strength through the core? Every decent player I can think of has visible muscle mass through the hips, gluts and thighs and generally has develop chest and shoulders too.

I haven't called you any names at all. I respect you as a poster over the years, we just have a difference of opinion on this one.

Also twice I have pointed out how your opinions are directly opposite to what Sam Mitchell said less than a month ago and yet you haven't responded or acknowledged that once.

Also I pointed out that Gunston was a skinny kid for a long time in his AFL career (still not huge by any stretch) because you said you expected more progress from Hartung in this area considering he is going into his 3rd year of AFL. I would have thought the Gunston comparison was even more startling considering the position that he plays compared to Hartung who predominantly plays on the wing. Smith was skinny when he joined Hawthorn and he was mature aged, 21 IIRC. Hill still hasn't put on much size, but has been getting stronger. Smith is the best wingman in the AFL and played a ripping Grand Final.

As for sub 180cm players, if I knew how to sort the whole AFL lists by height I am sure we can find some examples.

 

[Brishawk]

I haven't called you any names at all. I respect you as a poster over the years, we just have a difference of opinion on this one.

Also twice I have pointed out how your opinions are directly opposite to what Sam Mitchell said less than a month ago and yet you haven't responded or acknowledged that once.

Also I pointed out that Gunston was a skinny kid for a long time in his AFL career (still not huge by any stretch) because you said you expected more progress from Hartung in this area considering he is going into his 3rd year of AFL. I would have thought the Gunston comparison was even more startling considering the position that he plays compared to Hartung who predominantly plays on the wing. Smith was skinny when he joined Hawthorn and he was mature aged, 21 IIRC. Hill still hasn't put on much size, but has been getting stronger. Smith is the best wingman in the AFL and played a ripping Grand Final.

As for sub 180cm players, if I knew how to sort the whole AFL lists by height I am sure we can find some examples.

I responded to you regarding Mitchell. What he says is in direct conflict to what he and others have done on the field. We have moved away from specialist position players. Mitchell plays 90% of game time so any suggestion he can run is really a reference to his speed not his fitness.

Why the Gunston and smith examples are not so useful is because these players were competitive in physical contests with their direct opponent from the day they started playing. Yes they have both improved but they were not a liability in that area the way hartung is. Hartung was virtually without an opponent all season. When Richmond sat a player on him he was far less effective. They literally pushed him out of the contest so he couldn't receive the handball.

Lastly, on hill he is short and skinny but he is much more agile than hartung. Hill uses that agility to avoid contact. He is still a liability in the air and tackling but he can still win the ball or get around a Shepard through agility. Hartung runs in very Straight lines so he is going to need to be stronger to be equally effective because he is going to need to hold his position as opposed to dancing around his opponent.

I respect the fact that you have at least tried to engage me on valid points even if I disagree On them. Thank you for that.

 

[heh]

I must admit to not getting the hartung love?
I love his ability to run and he is handy as 3rd runner, but i think we'd be in strife if we had to rely on him to be one of the main two. He didn't seem to have much impact this year, despite coming on fresh and late most of the time.

 

[MrPremiership]

I must admit to not getting the hartung love?
I love his ability to run and he is handy as 3rd runner, but i think we'd be in strife if we had to rely on him to be one of the main two. He didn't seem to have much impact this year, despite coming on fresh and late most of the time.

Reckon games where he hasnt been sub he has had a good influence and decent numbers.

 

[Suntory Boss Coffee]

View attachment 198821
Reckon games where he hasnt been sub he has had a good influence and decent numbers.

Numbers don't show anything tbh. I too don't get the love. Just hacks it forward more often than most

 

[MrPremiership]

Think that's really harsh. Watch the game vs Melbourne where we runs about 80m to about 60m out and then instead of bombing long he goes 90 degrees and spots up Roughy beautifully in a better position. He has good decision making. He wouldn't have played 16 games this year if he just "hacked" it forward. See Langfords struggles this year and especially the QF against WCE

Numbers don't show anything tbh. I too don't get the love. Just hacks it forward more often than most

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

Numbers don't show anything tbh. I too don't get the love. Just hacks it forward more often than most

 

[Gralin]

I think there is a difference between positional versatility and what Mitch was talking about which was everyone needs to be big and strong and fast and run all day

 

[threesixpio]

They should lighten up a bit.

This joke was heavy handed

 

[threesixpio]

Think that's really harsh. Watch the game vs Melbourne where we runs about 80m to about 60m out and then instead of bombing long he goes 90 degrees and spots up Roughy beautifully in a better position. He has good decision making. He wouldn't have played 16 games this year if he just "hacked" it forward. See Langfords struggles this year and especially the QF against WCE

I agree. Smart player. I make no comment about Brishawk's view about his physique. I'll see how that plays out but those suggesting Hartung hasn't got skills or smarts.....not sure who they're watching

That second Essendon game where he runs his heart out and then does a perfect kick to Gunner. Wet myself......

 

[Davo23]

Blame the off season!

Damn schoolies!

Lay off the hard stuff!

 

[ACTion Hawks]

All I have ever said is that I was disappointed in the lack of any development and I get called misinformed and ignorant and I should just leave it to the club. I didn't respond by calling people names. Unlike anyone who has responded to me, I have actually used examples of other players. The closest anyone has come is Michael Tuck (who wasn't short and retired 24 years ago) and Gunston who is not even remotely the same kind of player.

Find me a current player that is sub 180cm that is good and doesn't play forward pocket that lacks strength through the core? Every decent player I can think of has visible muscle mass through the hips, gluts and thighs and generally has develop chest and shoulders too.

What about Hill? Not that I disagree with your point, as I felt Billy was found out in the finals intensity, but Hill isn't super strong and not too tall! I remember in 2013 he was seen as a liability and improved out of sight to 2014 (and still contributed in 2013).

 

[Footy 1st]

Can anyone confirm the dates for the Hawks training camp in Maroochydore? I thought this weekend but can't find any details.