Training Training Thread

[Main Man]

Okay but surely you can see what everyone else is saying right? Hartung is an elite runner, is quick, can find the ball on the outside, so where does his development come from? Reading the game, but he already seems pretty good at that and will improve with more game time. Maybe getting on the scoreboard more? To me, and a lot of others, the development of his inside game (and thus his strength, especially through the legs and hips) is the biggest area for him to improve. While maybe we want him to be a purely outside player, developing his inside game could see him become that inside/outside midfielder like an Ablett or a Robbie Gray, who can win the ball on the inside, and then spread and get it on the outside.

All i'm saying is that he would really have to stack on weight and hulk up (which nobody here is really calling for) in order to lose a significant amount of his run and zip. There are plenty of midfielders who are heavier than Hartung who kept their speed and agility at an elite level after bulking up. While obviously it's up to the club, many here would love to see him develop in that way, and that's all we are saying.

His improvement will come by having more significant impact in games with experience, his inside game/tackling will get the level required with time and experience also, like Hill and Smith who have gone before him.

This obsession with turning every body into inside players or improving this aspect of the game is strange, Billy needs to concentrate on what he is good at, that is running fast, creating space and breaking the lines, he has already show that he is capable of having a successful career doing just that.

Lets build on players strengths instead of trying to turn them into something they are not.

So if the club wants him to improve on the inside and build his strength they will get him to do that, if they don't they don't but either way there is no need for any supporters to concern themselves with what Hartung should be doing and making judgements based on photographs.

Lets leave that to the club and let Hartungs performance do the talking.

 

[MrPremiership]

Hartung is probably still stronger than Hill

 

[Brishawk]

I'm pretty certain the club would have targets set for him and if he is not reaching them they will adjust accordingly but what amuses me is people who are outside the club passing judgement on the physical appearance of players when they have no idea of where the club wants them to be.

Hartung is an outisde player, he doesn't need to have a build like Gray and Neale as they are primarily inside midfielders.

I don't get the obsession with everyone wanting players to build strength so they can play on the inside or improve on the inside, Hartung is in the team to run and create and the outside, much like Smith and Hill, they provide a great balance to the team.

Talk about being a liability to the team is rubbish because they are not there to be good on the inside, leave that up to the inside players, you cannot have a team full of Brad Sewells running around.

As I said I think everyone should be trusting the club instead of making judgements based on what they believe is best
I literally said I don't expect him to primarily focus on winning his own ball but if you want to see why he needs to improve his body shape and build power and strength through his core watch the Richmond game from last year. Houli and Ellis literally just pushed him out off every contest so he couldn't run to receive. Was absolutely a liability and until he can address that he will always be a fringe player (at least while Smith and Hill are there).

Here is Brent Harvey has virtually the same body shape as the previous two players I mentioned and he is primarily and outside player. He still has to tackle and hold his position as an outside player. This is the body shape of a short AFL player.

Here is Rioli.

How about you find me some short players who are skinny through the core for us to compare them to? Might make for a better discussion than 'Club knows best...end thread'. Can't recall any successful players who run in straight lines like Hartung does and yet have the body of a 15 year old boy through the core.

 

[Main Man]

I forgot sorry, I should doubt the club and trust a key board expert who is making judgements based on photographs, maybe I should just say Brishawk knows best so end thread.

Let just judge Billy on his performance in 2016, I think I'm happy to trust the club on this one and as far as I'm concerned Billy have surpassed expectations to this point in his career.

 

[Brishawk]

Hartung is probably still stronger than Hill

Its a close run race but Hartung is even worse than Hill in marking contests. Usually he just avoids them. If he had a greater mass he might be able to use that to impact contests against his opponent.

The key difference between Hill and Hartung is that Hill is incredibly agile. Hill can take the ball and move laterally and/or change directions to create the milliseconds he needs to dispose of the ball or win it cleanly away from his opponent. Hartung does not have that ability so when the handball out of the back comes and doesn't release him he ends up getting tackled to the ground. He needs to be able to have some strength and mass to stand up more in tackles and ideally break through them on the odd occasion because he just can't create the time Hill can with his movement.

 

[cryptor]

I remember watching a video with one of our players (think it was Mitchell) in the last year and he said something to the effect that the club helps develop the players strengths rather than trying to turn them all into something they're not.

That's not to say glaring weaknesses are ignored but I'm going to guess the club doesn't see Hartung as a type they're going to have burrowing into packs.

 

[Main Man]

I remember watching a video with one of our players (think it was Mitchell) in the last year and he said something to the effect that the club helps develop the players strengths rather than trying to turn them all into something they're not.

That's not to say glaring weaknesses are ignored but I'm going to guess the club doesn't see Hartung as a type they're going to have burrowing into packs.

But Birshawk thinks he needs to put on strength and develop his inside game so that's what he should be doing.

What would the club know?

 

[HR Roughnstuf]

missed the point. He was already at the top end of afl fitness. Why try and be even fitter when your primary weakness is weakness?

I thought his weakness was eczema

 

[Brishawk]

I forgot sorry, I should doubt the club and trust a key board expert who is making judgements based on photographs, maybe I should just say Brishawk knows best so end thread.

Let just judge Billy on his performance in 2016, I think I'm happy to trust the club on this one and as far as I'm concerned Billy have surpassed expectations to this point in his career.

Not what I said. Pick any outside player you like and compare body shape. If you can find some that physically fit Hurtung's shape then we have something to go on. I have provided examples of short players in the AFL right now who have developed their bodies to suit the demands of the game. You just said club knows best. I think history knows best and history says if you are short you need to have a stronger than average core to compete against the much bigger bodies of AFL players.

 

[MrPremiership]

Its a close run race but Hartung is even worse than Hill in marking contests. Usually he just avoids them. If he had a greater mass he might be able to use that to impact contests against his opponent.

The key difference between Hill and Hartung is that Hill is incredibly agile. Hill can take the ball and move laterally and/or change directions to create the milliseconds he needs to dispose of the ball or win it cleanly away from his opponent. Hartung does not have that ability so when the handball out of the back comes and doesn't release him he ends up getting tackled to the ground. He needs to be able to have some strength and mass to stand up more in tackles and ideally break through them on the odd occasion because he just can't create the time Hill can with his movement.

To be fair, we dont want to be relying on Hartung taking contested marks....he is to be an outside player, so he needs spped, endurance and disposal efficiency. Anything above that is a bonus.

Further, i think you're underselling Hartung's agility.Its actually not that bad from what I can remember. He's no ruckman.

 

[mightynineteen]

Hartung is probably still stronger than Hill

May be, but I think that Hill is more evasive.
Its funny that Hill isn't a very good tackler, yet one of my favourite moments in the 14 premiership was Hill tackling Tippett and bringing him to ground.

 

[Main Man]

Not what I said. Pick any outside player you like and compare body shape. If you can find some that physically fit Hurtung's shape then we have something to go on. I have provided examples of short players in the AFL right now who have developed their bodies to suit the demands of the game. You just said club knows best. I think history knows best and history says if you are short you need to have a stronger than average core to compete against the much bigger bodies of AFL players.

And how on earth do you know how Billy Hartungs core strength is?

You don't, you are guessing based on photos.

Which goes back to the point, forget about what you think of Hartungs appearance and his physical strength and trust the club who deal with him every day.

Lets worry about his performance on field instead of how he looks in a photograph.

 

[Main Man]

To be fair, we dont want to be relying on Hartung taking contested marks....he is to be an outside player, so he needs spped, endurance and disposal efficiency. Anything above that is a bonus.

Further, i think you're underselling Hartung's agility.Its actually not that bad from what I can remember. He's no ruckman.

Spot on.

 

[MrPremiership]

May be, but I think that Hill is more evasive.
Its funny that Hill isn't a very good tackler, yet one of my favourite moments in the 14 premiership was Hill tackling Tippett and bringing him to ground.

prelim tackle v Blivcas

 

[cryptor]

May be, but I think that Hill is more evasive.
Its funny that Hill isn't a very good tackler, yet one of my favourite moments in the 14 premiership was Hill tackling Tippett and bringing him to ground.

Also ran down Malceski but wasn't rewarded. Hill seems to save all his tackling for grand finals. Possibly because if he gets injured in the process he likely won't need to worry about getting up the next week.

 

[KAMSTAR HFC]

I thought his weakness was eczema

Yeah on his, ah, feet

 

[Boo71]

And how on earth do you know how Billy Hartungs core strength is?

You don't, you are guessing based on photos.

Which goes back to the point, forget about what you think of Hartungs appearance and his physical strength and trust the club who deal with him every day.

Lets worry about his performance on field instead of how he looks in a photograph.

To be fair, we dont want to be relying on Hartung taking contested marks....he is to be an outside player, so he needs spped, endurance and disposal efficiency. Anything above that is a bonus.

Further, i think you're underselling Hartung's agility.Its actually not that bad from what I can remember. He's no ruckman.

Its bloody dangerous talking sense on here, but a good read when people do.

 

[Davo23]

The Hartung discussion is very interesting.
I was watching some older games from 2008 and 2010 on Foxfooty over the last week, and noticing that, while we still had the inside guys like Sammy, Hodgey and Sewell, there was a great dependence on the outside runners.

Players like Young, Bateman and Crawford provided a link between players when moving the ball around defence, then would burst into space to carry the ball up field. Clinton Young is much maligned here, but he was excellent in that role.

Smith and Hill have spoiled us, because they are so good at this role.

If Hartung builds on his promise, he will join them soon.

 

[Brishawk]

And how on earth do you know how Billy Hartungs core strength is?

You don't, you are guessing based on photos.

Which goes back to the point, forget about what you think of Hartungs appearance and his physical strength and trust the club who deal with him every day.

Lets worry about his performance on field instead of how he looks in a photograph.

You posted earlier that Hodge and Lewis have dropped weight and maintained strength with no evidence yet that he doesn't have the body for AFL based on several examples and yet I am over reaching? I am not guessing he has poor body strength based on photos - it is clear as day in the matches he played. But if someone has done the work to improve their body it generally shows. We saw with Ellis that failure to improve your body hurts your career. Hartung doesn't have Ellis's talent to work with. Was that what the club wanted? We face a similar issue with TOB. Body shape not changing. Incredibly unlikely he is going to be much better in contest situations this year. The club might not expect him to be Travis Cloke but their is a minimum level of competitiveness required and it would be very generous to suggest he will be at that level this year based on his physical appearance. The club doesn't always get the result they want with players and you don't know any better than I do what the club want from Hartung in terms of physical development. we can only go on what we see. If he doesn't improve he will remain a fringe player. We couldn't take him into a grand final last year. He was always a strong candidate to be dropped because he is only really good enough in one area of his game - outside ball winning. We he more well rounded we might have been able to accommodate him ahead of Suckling (as an example).

 

[Boo71]

The Hartung discussion is very interesting.
I was watching some older games from 2008 and 2010 on Foxfooty over the last week, and noticing that, while we still had the inside guys like Sammy, Hodgey and Sewell, there was a great dependence on the outside runners.

Players like Young, Bateman and Crawford provided a link between players when moving the ball around defence, then would burst into space to carry the ball up field. Clinton Young is much maligned here, but he was excellent in that role.

Smith and Hill have spoiled us, because they are so good at this role.

If Hartung builds on his promise, he will join them soon.

Young copes it unfairly because he fell over at a bad time in the wrong place, so much for forgive and forget. Plus the long bomb went out of fashion which he was bloody brilliant at.

If Hartung continues on from where he left off this will only help Hill and Smith. Teamwork within a team. So why we'd want him bulked up is a discussion I don not understand in the overall scheme of where this team is at.

 

[Boo71]

You posted earlier that Hodge and Lewis have dropped weight and maintained strength with no evidence yet that he doesn't have the body for AFL based on several examples and yet I am over reaching? I am not guessing he has poor body strength based on photos - it is clear as day in the matches he played. But if someone has done the work to improve their body it generally shows. We saw with Ellis that failure to improve your body hurts your career. Hartung doesn't have Ellis's talent to work with. Was that what the club wanted? We face a similar issue with TOB. Body shape not changing. Incredibly unlikely he is going to be much better in contest situations this year. The club might not expect him to be Travis Cloke but their is a minimum level of competitiveness required and it would be very generous to suggest he will be at that level this year based on his physical appearance. The club doesn't always get the result they want with players and you don't know any better than I do what the club want from Hartung in terms of physical development. we can only go on what we see. If he doesn't improve he will remain a fringe player. We couldn't take him into a grand final last year. He was always a strong candidate to be dropped because he is only really good enough in one area of his game - outside ball winning. We he more well rounded we might have been able to accommodate him ahead of Suckling (as an example).

So the fitness staff must be shit then, because you can't see any improvement in a photo

 

[Main Man]

You posted earlier that Hodge and Lewis have dropped weight and maintained strength with no evidence yet that he doesn't have the body for AFL based on several examples and yet I am over reaching? I am not guessing he has poor body strength based on photos - it is clear as day in the matches he played. But if someone has done the work to improve their body it generally shows. We saw with Ellis that failure to improve your body hurts your career. Hartung doesn't have Ellis's talent to work with. Was that what the club wanted? We face a similar issue with TOB. Body shape not changing. Incredibly unlikely he is going to be much better in contest situations this year. The club might not expect him to be Travis Cloke but their is a minimum level of competitiveness required and it would be very generous to suggest he will be at that level this year based on his physical appearance. The club doesn't always get the result they want with players and you don't know any better than I do what the club want from Hartung in terms of physical development. we can only go on what we see. If he doesn't improve he will remain a fringe player. We couldn't take him into a grand final last year. He was always a strong candidate to be dropped because he is only really good enough in one area of his game - outside ball winning. We he more well rounded we might have been able to accommodate him ahead of Suckling (as an example).

What I meant with Hodge and Lewis was that losing weight hasn't negatively impacted their ability to play on the inside, or they still have the body strength to do so despite losing significant weight.

Again what you have just said is purely your own opinion in regards to Hartung, based on what you think you see in photos and what you see in games, so yes you are guessing as to how good his core strength actually is, I'm tipping the club has a better idea of how good his core strength is and if it is an issue they will be working on it.

Comparing Ellis and Hartung is laughable, completely different players and you're making assumptions on Hartung not improving his body based on a few photos, again laughable when you have idea what sort of results he would be achieving in the gym.

You're right, I don't know what the club wants from Hartung's body but I'm trusting them to achieve what they want to achieve with him instead of making ill informed judgements based on photos like you are. I don't claim to be an expert in everything like you seem to believe you are, I would rather trust the experts at the club who have got this team to win 3 on the trot.

Hartung will always be a fringe player? What are you on about? The kid has played 2 years of football and would have exceeded I think even the clubs own expectations, how on earth can you say he is always going to be a fringe player based on what he has done to date?

He is on par with Hill and if not even further advanced than he was after 2 years of his career, look at someone like Doc Duryea who took 4 years to get a game and 6 to cement his spot in the side, I think Hartung is well placed in comparison.

Again instead of putting so much weight in your own opinion lets wait and see how he performs during the course of the season.

 

[Prudster]

Young copes it unfairly because he fell over at a bad time in the wrong place, so much for forgive and forget. Plus the long bomb went out of fashion which he was bloody brilliant at.

If Hartung continues on from where he left off this will only help Hill and Smith. Teamwork within a team. So why we'd want him bulked up is a discussion I don not understand in the overall scheme of where this team is at.

You don't understand why people might want to see him develop more of an inside game? We already have two elite (or near elite) wingers, neither of whom are particularly old. With the pending retirements of Hodge, Mitchell, and Burgoyne, having another very good inside/outside midfielder would be a huge boon to our chances post-oldies.

While it sounds great to say we'll have 3 very good wingers, unless we have people feeding the ball out to them, they will struggle massively, and without that outside ball, they need to develop more ways to impact the contest, which as of yet, Hartung hasn't really done. There aren't many teams that can utilise/carry/hide the weaknesses of players who are purely outside.

Also, it's not like he's going to transform into some slow, inside midfielder with no run. The reality is that he would still be primarily an outside mover, just he'll be able to make an impact in the contest as well. Having his tackles broken or being timid at the contest (Hill moreso than Hartung) are absolute coach killers, and i doubt Clarko will be happy with that happening, no matter how weak or skinny a player is.

 

[HR Roughnstuf]

I'm pretty certain the club would have targets set for him and if he is not reaching them they will adjust accordingly but what amuses me is people who are outside the club passing judgement on the physical appearance of players when they have no idea of where the club wants them to be.

Hartung is an outisde player, he doesn't need to have a build like Gray and Neale as they are primarily inside midfielders.

I don't get the obsession with everyone wanting players to build strength so they can play on the inside or improve on the inside, Hartung is in the team to run and create and the outside, much like Smith and Hill, they provide a great balance to the team.

Talk about being a liability to the team is rubbish because they are not there to be good on the inside, leave that up to the inside players, you cannot have a team full of Brad Sewells running around.

As I said I think everyone should be trusting the club instead of making judgements based on what they believe is best.

Spot on mate.

Hey Brishawk check out these comments from Mitchell, but what would he know right?

source: http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-11-16/big-kid-mitchell-still-learning-the-ropes-after-four-flags

Perhaps that aspect of his football story is why Mitchell says what he loves best about Australian football is that, like the Manhattan skyline, Australia's game can find a spot for both talls and smalls.

It can also find a place for quick and slow, inside and outside, rough and tumble or refined and, says Mitchell, the game is getting even better as it evolves at making the most of those differences.

He suspects there is a lingering misconception among observers that you have to excel at everything to play the game now, whereas the game is moving the other way.

When Mitchell, Luke Hodge and Jordan Lewis first started that wasn't the case.

They worked on their running.

If Billy Hartung and Brad Hill had arrived in that era, they would have been sent to the weights room.

Now players are trained to become better at what they are good at, rather than being hammered to improve their weaknesses.

"Everyone had to be a good runner but now if you're not a great runner, there is still a place for you and if you are a great runner and not great at contested footy there is still a place for you," Mitchell said.

It's then up to the team and game plan to maximise individual strengths and minimise the effect of their weaknesses.

"[It's a] better spectacle to watch, a better game to play and I think it makes it more enjoyable because you're not having to work on something you're no good at," Mitchell said.

 

[Main Man]

You don't understand why people might want to see him develop more of an inside game? We already have two elite (or near elite) wingers, neither of whom are particularly old. With the pending retirements of Hodge, Mitchell, and Burgoyne, having another very good inside/outside midfielder would be a huge boon to our chances post-oldies.

While it sounds great to say we'll have 3 very good wingers, unless we have people feeding the ball out to them, they will struggle massively, and without that outside ball, they need to develop more ways to impact the contest, which as of yet, Hartung hasn't really done. There aren't many teams that can utilise/carry/hide the weaknesses of players who are purely outside.

Also, it's not like he's going to transform into some slow, inside midfielder with no run. The reality is that he would still be primarily an outside mover, just he'll be able to make an impact in the contest as well. Having his tackles broken or being timid at the contest (Hill moreso than Hartung) are absolute coach killers, and i doubt Clarko will be happy with that happening, no matter how weak or skinny a player is.

To be honest I couldn't care less what you or anyone else around here wants players to become, I'll leave that up to the club, if they want to turn him into more of an inside player so be it, they seem to have a pretty good idea on how to prepare a premiership winning list.