Politics Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement

[Power Raid]

given we already have many of the provisions in the TPP enshrined in law, it will be of very little benefit to Australia. This has been discussed to death and finally people are starting to realise this............thank god.

Hopefully people will start to appreciate the benefits this will bring to nations that don't share the same benefits as Australia and then consider the opportunities this represents for Australians.

 

[CM86]

given we already have many of the provisions in the TPP enshrined in law, it will be of very little benefit to Australia. This has been discussed to death and finally people are starting to realise this............thank god.

Hopefully people will start to appreciate the benefits this will bring to nations that don't share the same benefits as Australia and then consider the opportunities this represents for Australians.

We have pretty good human rights here.
Has that been included in this TPP?
Labour rights, health, freedom of speech. It's all great here.
What about in Vietnam? The country looking to increase its economy and trade the most (According to projections by the world bank... that we should or shouldn't believe?)
Will it create a better and more financially stable country? Or create a larger divide between the rich and the poor?

Why haven't worker's rights safeguards been imposed on the countries with poor records when it comes to labour rights?

We're trying to make sure that the tobacco industry could successfully sue us, and the media industry can access our personal information...
But what happened to the little guy, who we're told by the IPA, are who we are doing this for?

And you cannot just say that a stronger economy will benefit everyone regardless. Because I don't subscribe to the trickle down effect.

Never mind that Thailand are cut off

 

[Gough]

given we already have many of the provisions in the TPP enshrined in law, it will be of very little benefit to Australia. This has been discussed to death and finally people are starting to realise this............thank god.

Hopefully people will start to appreciate the benefits this will bring to nations that don't share the same benefits as Australia and then consider the opportunities this represents for Australians.

This is laughably naive. Given their track record at home, do you honestly believe that the current government gives two shits about the rights of workers abroad?

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Pretty short-sighted to say it hasn't benefited Australia at all when it has been what 4 months?

It doesn't say it "hasn't" benefited Australia, it's saying it "won't" which is a big difference. I don't think it's even been ratified yet, so hasn't been implemented? It's based on economic modelling and forecasting not just on the rhetoric of politicians pushing an agenda.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

given we already have many of the provisions in the TPP enshrined in law, it will be of very little benefit to Australia. This has been discussed to death and finally people are starting to realise this............thank god.

Hopefully people will start to appreciate the benefits this will bring to nations that don't share the same benefits as Australia and then consider the opportunities this represents for Australians.

That's the whole point - it's of little if any benefit to us at all (despite the government trying to sell it as one) but opens us up to massive risks by signing on to the ISDS & IP provisions.

So all risk, no reward = stupid agreement.

 

[Power Raid]

That's the whole point - it's of little if any benefit to us at all (despite the government trying to sell it as one) but opens us up to massive risks by signing on to the ISDS & IP provisions.

So all risk, no reward = stupid agreement.

but you are completely wrong

as per above, look at the TPP from a different prism. Given we already have many of the provisions of the TPP enshrined in law, it will be of little change to Oz. We already have ISDS and IP provisions and have so for decades and even centuries if you consider international shipping.

but have a thought for the importance of the TPP where govts have corrupt elements and the courts can be bought. can you see the advantage to Oz by having richer, more stable and better functioning neighbours?

 

[Power Raid]

This is laughably naive. Given their track record at home, do you honestly believe that the current government gives two shits about the rights of workers abroad?

again, way off the mark

what has the TPP got to do with IR?

 

[Power Raid]

We have pretty good human rights here.
Has that been included in this TPP?
Labour rights, health, freedom of speech. It's all great here.
What about in Vietnam? The country looking to increase its economy and trade the most (According to projections by the world bank... that we should or shouldn't believe?)
Will it create a better and more financially stable country? Or create a larger divide between the rich and the poor?

Why haven't worker's rights safeguards been imposed on the countries with poor records when it comes to labour rights?

We're trying to make sure that the tobacco industry could successfully sue us, and the media industry can access our personal information...
But what happened to the little guy, who we're told by the IPA, are who we are doing this for?

And you cannot just say that a stronger economy will benefit everyone regardless. Because I don't subscribe to the trickle down effect.

Never mind that Thailand are cut off

all great points but think of one of the western worlds greatest events that improved workers (or serfs rights)........the black plague. The black plague was fabulous for workers rights as it changed the balance between supply and demand of labour (reduced labour supply).

The TPP works very differently but it increases the demand for labour in nations, as it promotes investment by delivering the legal framework Australia has enjoyed for so long.

Are you a black plague kind of guy or a TPP kind of guy?


In short, IR is a function of wealth and legal framework. We can turn our backs on our neighbours or support measures like the TPP that star to enshrine basic legal frameworks and protect them from corrupt govts and corrupt courts.


Perhaps though you're right, the world should look toward a treaty on IR and health. I would certainly support that.

 

[Gough]

So you're saying that there is no net benefit to Australia signing the TPP, and we're just doing it because we're a great bunch of guys. F**ing delusional.

 

[Power Raid]

So you're saying that there is no net benefit to Australia signing the TPP, and we're just doing it because we're a great bunch of guys. F**ing delusional.

no

that's not what I'm saying. I am saying there is little change here in Oz but a massive change and opportunity for all (australians and internationals) in jurisdictions where this will have a big impact.

you guys have to learn to look through a prism differently. Learn to turn it, rather than look at it from one perspective.

 

[CM86]

as per above, look at the TPP from a different prism.

Are you a black plague kind of guy or a TPP kind of guy?

you guys have to learn to look through a prism differently. Learn to turn it, rather than look at it from one perspective.

Power Raid, this is just guff. You haven't written anything of substance.

I think the reason we need to repeal the TPP is because it isn't powershifting the paradigm and deep diving the synergy.

Meaningless. And boring.

 

[CM86]

all great points but think of one of the western worlds greatest events that improved workers (or serfs rights)........the black plague. The black plague was fabulous for workers rights as it changed the balance between supply and demand of labour (reduced labour supply).

The TPP works very differently but it increases the demand for labour in nations, as it promotes investment by delivering the legal framework Australia has enjoyed for so long.

Are you a black plague kind of guy or a TPP kind of guy?


In short, IR is a function of wealth and legal framework. We can turn our backs on our neighbours or support measures like the TPP that star to enshrine basic legal frameworks and protect them from corrupt govts and corrupt courts.


Perhaps though you're right, the world should look toward a treaty on IR and health. I would certainly support that.

I've no idea what that means.

Do you mean, I have to choose between the black plaque or the TPP?

What about Unions? You are heavily against them now... But you have to agree that they were better for workers than the black plague, right?

Are you a black plague or union kind of guy?


You are creating a false dichotomy. We turn our backs on 'our neighbours' or support the TPP.

Why don't we support a TPP that looks after the workers from the start? Why do we have to let it play itself out and assume it will work ala the trickle down effect.


At the end of the day, you don't need a corrupt court... if legally you can rip off the labour market.

Paradigm shift synergy.

 

[Power Raid]

I've no idea what that means.

Do you mean, I have to choose between the black plaque or the TPP?

What about Unions? You are heavily against them now... But you have to agree that they were better for workers than the black plague, right?

Are you a black plague or union kind of guy?


You are creating a false dichotomy. We turn our backs on 'our neighbours' or support the TPP.

Why don't we support a TPP that looks after the workers from the start? Why do we have to let it play itself out and assume it will work ala the trickle down effect.


At the end of the day, you don't need a corrupt court... if legally you can rip off the labour market.

Paradigm shift synergy.

If you want to lift people out of poverty and improve IR conditions you need to do one of two things; reduce the supply of labour (the black plague) or increase the demand for labour (promote investment by reducing corruption and installing property rights).

Obviously one is simply silly but it was a milestone in how the western world improved the value of labour.



I am not against unions. I am against corrupt unions, there is a big difference. Further, unions don't create value so I'm not sure why the love.


It is difficult to hold a conversation with you regarding the TPP if you can't understand what it is. The TPP is not an IR document, nor should it. If we want a IR treaty, a tax treaty, a peace treaty, etc..............these belong in standalone treaties.

 

[CM86]

If you want to lift people out of poverty and improve IR conditions you need to do one of two things; reduce the supply of labour (the black plague) or increase the demand for labour (promote investment by reducing corruption and installing property rights).

Obviously one is simply silly but it was a milestone in how the western world improved the value of labour.



I am not against unions. I am against corrupt unions, there is a big difference. Further, unions don't create value so I'm not sure why the love.


It is difficult to hold a conversation with you regarding the TPP if you can't understand what it is. The TPP is not an IR document, nor should it. If we want a IR treaty, a tax treaty, a peace treaty, etc..............these belong in standalone treaties.

You have talked about the importance of the TPP in helping the little guy.
1. So, how does it help the little guy?

You keep referring to, basically, trickle down economy. And as I'm sure you believe in it, I don't. So maybe you can find another way to say to trust you, and that it will help little farmer Nguyen?


2. Other than helping the rich to become richer. How does the TPP actually help people?

3. How can you state, categorically, that the TPP will be a milestone in the improved value of Labour in the Western world?
4. Why do we need a TPP to increase labour and the need for production?

5. What happens to Thailand?

Your post, once again, has no substance.

I've gone back and numbered some points. To see if you can directly reply to them, instead of a overreaching statement full of subterfuge.

 

[Power Raid]

You have talked about the importance of the TPP in helping the little guy.
1. So, how does it help the little guy?

You keep referring to, basically, trickle down economy. And as I'm sure you believe in it, I don't. So maybe you can find another way to say to trust you, and that it will help little farmer Nguyen?


2. Other than helping the rich to become richer. How does the TPP actually help people?

3. How can you state, categorically, that the TPP will be a milestone in the improved value of Labour in the Western world?
4. Why do we need a TPP to increase labour and the need for production?

5. What happens to Thailand?

Your post, once again, has no substance.

I've gone back and numbered some points. To see if you can directly reply to them, instead of a overreaching statement full of subterfuge.

do you think labour is some isolated commodity that can't be transferred or compete?

given that labour DOES compete as it can shift jurisdictions or alternatively employment shifts to where there is cheaper labour or more precisely more productive, it is extremely important to create wealth and increase the demand for labour everywhere. It is as you have highlighted extremely important to then spread that wealth which is achieved through social welfare and IR. So by looking after our neighbours, we are looking after ourselves (3) as we increase the demand for there labour and wages, we reduce the gap and put a floor under our own real wages.

how does this help the little guy? the cost of capital is a function of risk. If the cost of capital is high, not only is there less work, the cost of that capital is passed onto the consumer............the little guy. The feudal systems in Indo, the Philippines, Thailand etc don't want the status quo to change as they enjoy having peasant, a low cost of business and no competition. They eliminate competition by having corrupt governments, corrupt public servants and corrupt judicial systems. Let's start with a basic question.............how does the little guy benefit from having a court system that can be bribed?

What happens to Thailand? I trust you mean what benefits will Thailand see? By strengthening property laws and safeguards to ensure the government fulfills its legal obligations, the cost of capital will reduce. This means both local and international business will access cheaper capital and thus lower cost of production. They will also enjoy less red tape that was designed purely to extract bribes, meaning increased efficiency and transparency.
This will lead two fold in increased demand for labour and higher real wages. This will benefit the women the most, who may not have to whore themselves or be sold off by their families into the sex trade. Wouldn't that be great putting an end to early teens being sold into the sex industry?


It is a massive task to create wealth for the billions of people on the planet that are currently void of opportunity, educate them, provide health care and essential services etc but we are more successful now at achieving that then ever before in history. there is no doubt globalisation is bringing about many challenges including threats to our way of life but the surest way to destroy what we have achieved in Oz is protectionism. Our greatest chance of success, is not to ignore the challenges and hope they go away, rather it is to introduce the things that makes Oz great to the rest of the world. Property laws is a very important ingredient.

 

[CM86]

do you think labour is some isolated commodity that can't be transferred or compete?

given that labour DOES compete as it can shift jurisdictions or alternatively employment shifts to where there is cheaper labour or more precisely more productive, it is extremely important to create wealth and increase the demand for labour everywhere. It is as you have highlighted extremely important to then spread that wealth which is achieved through social welfare and IR. So by looking after our neighbours, we are looking after ourselves (3) as we increase the demand for there labour and wages, we reduce the gap and put a floor under our own real wages.

how does this help the little guy? the cost of capital is a function of risk. If the cost of capital is high, not only is there less work, the cost of that capital is passed onto the consumer............the little guy. The feudal systems in Indo, the Philippines, Thailand etc don't want the status quo to change as they enjoy having peasant, a low cost of business and no competition. They eliminate competition by having corrupt governments, corrupt public servants and corrupt judicial systems. Let's start with a basic question.............how does the little guy benefit from having a court system that can be bribed?

What happens to Thailand? I trust you mean what benefits will Thailand see? By strengthening property laws and safeguards to ensure the government fulfills its legal obligations, the cost of capital will reduce. This means both local and international business will access cheaper capital and thus lower cost of production. They will also enjoy less red tape that was designed purely to extract bribes, meaning increased efficiency and transparency.
This will lead two fold in increased demand for labour and higher real wages. This will benefit the women the most, who may not have to whore themselves or be sold off by their families into the sex trade. Wouldn't that be great putting an end to early teens being sold into the sex industry?


It is a massive task to create wealth for the billions of people on the planet that are currently void of opportunity, educate them, provide health care and essential services etc but we are more successful now at achieving that then ever before in history. there is no doubt globalisation is bringing about many challenges including threats to our way of life but the surest way to destroy what we have achieved in Oz is protectionism. Our greatest chance of success, is not to ignore the challenges and hope they go away, rather it is to introduce the things that makes Oz great to the rest of the world. Property laws is a very important ingredient.

I'll come back in a min.
But just quickly.
I didn't think Thailand was part of the TPP currently... thus is excluded from trade.

 

[CM86]

do you think labour is some isolated commodity that can't be transferred or compete?

No. And unless you can quote where you think I said that, or implied it, I'll assume this is just your usual subterfuge technique.

iven that labour DOES compete as it can shift jurisdictions or alternatively employment shifts to where there is cheaper labour or more precisely more productive, it is extremely important to create wealth and increase the demand for labour everywhere. It is as you have highlighted extremely important to then spread that wealth which is achieved through social welfare and IR. So by looking after our neighbours, we are looking after ourselves (3) as we increase the demand for there labour and wages, we reduce the gap and put a floor under our own real wages.

So, thanks to the TPP, we can now export labour as well?
How does that help Bruce?
I can see how it would help the rich guy.

How does the ability to export labour... support our wages, and increase demand for Australian labour?

how does this help the little guy? the cost of capital is a function of risk. If the cost of capital is high, not only is there less work, the cost of that capital is passed onto the consumer............the little guy. The feudal systems in Indo, the Philippines, Thailand etc don't want the status quo to change as they enjoy having peasant, a low cost of business and no competition. They eliminate competition by having corrupt governments, corrupt public servants and corrupt judicial systems. Let's start with a basic question.............how does the little guy benefit from having a court system that can be bribed?

How does that help the little guy?
Do our Australian farmers get ripped off, here in aus? I remember the milk outrage a few years ago.
But somehow... this will all be positive for countries that have an even greater divide between rich and poor.

What happens to Thailand? I trust you mean what benefits will Thailand see? By strengthening property laws and safeguards to ensure the government fulfills its legal obligations, the cost of capital will reduce. This means both local and international business will access cheaper capital and thus lower cost of production. They will also enjoy less red tape that was designed purely to extract bribes, meaning increased efficiency and transparency.
This will lead two fold in increased demand for labour and higher real wages. This will benefit the women the most, who may not have to whore themselves or be sold off by their families into the sex trade. Wouldn't that be great putting an end to early teens being sold into the sex industry?

I don't see how any of that will happen to Thailand... They aren't part of the TPP...

And more subterfuge...
Support the TPP or support teen prostitution...

You know there are teens selling their body in Aus and USA, right?
But it will fix it there...?

It is a massive task to create wealth for the billions of people on the planet that are currently void of opportunity, educate them, provide health care and essential services etc but we are more successful now at achieving that then ever before in history. there is no doubt globalisation is bringing about many challenges including threats to our way of life but the surest way to destroy what we have achieved in Oz is protectionism. Our greatest chance of success, is not to ignore the challenges and hope they go away, rather it is to introduce the things that makes Oz great to the rest of the world. Property laws is a very important ingredient.

Where in the TPP does it talk about educating and providing health care to the masses?
My problem with the TPP, is that it doesn't look at any of that...
You've previously said it doesn't... and that they need their own standalone treaties.

So again, you've not said anything of substance.

I might leave it there... because I'm not getting pulled into the PR suckhole.

None of the positives you've said... need the TPP... they can be done without it.

 

[Power Raid]

Thailand is investigating the TPP

if you can't see the link between property rights and lower cost of capital; the link between the lower cost of capital and cheaper goods and more economic activity; the link between more economic activity and greater wealth; greater wealth and health and education etc............then you are unlikely to see the benefit of the TPP

 

[CM86]

 

[rank and file]

Akira Amari "Abenomics" architect(fail) and lead negotiator for TPP resigned after being caught up in a bribery scandal last week.Hopefully throws a spanner in the works.I guess we'll find out in a couple of days.

 

[rank and file]

Well it's done.After 8 years of negotiation all parties have signed off on the TPP.
However,it's going to take a couple of years for everyone to ratify the agreement through their respective legislatures.All the while more lambs are queuing up to enter the fold.Realistically,like climate change I don't expect to see any results in my lifetime.
"We are having a war by modelling,almost every day there is another one coming out."
Trade minister Andrew Robb
He must have stopped scratching his head for a minute to be the first to sign off.

 

[Power Raid]

The moment we have this signed off we should seek to negotiate IR treaties. We should ensure we seek to improve the working conditions for our trade partners.

 

[rank and file]

The moment we have this signed off we should seek to negotiate IR treaties. We should ensure we seek to improve the working conditions for our trade partners.

All good every country that signed on to it is probably working on 2 or 3 models for IR treaties as we speak.As the kids get older I'm going to guide them in the direction of becoming "Political and economic model consultants"(Pacific region experts).This is going to go round and round for years.

 

[Power Raid]

All good every country that signed on to it is probably working on 2 or 3 models for IR treaties as we speak.As the kids get older I'm going to guide them in the direction of becoming "Political and economic model consultants"(Pacific region experts).This is going to go round and round for years.

and back again for decades!

 

[rank and file]

and back again for decades!

I know,whens footy start