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bok_party said:
Sorry Northey, but I got to disagree with you there although there are some aspects I agree with like goalscoring not being the sole factor whether a player is good or not. Messi’s vision, technique, decision making, passing, football intelligence, finishing are all impeccable. I agree his work rate could be a lot better but when his output is that good it’s hard to argue.
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and that's just it Bok, observation is the greatest weapon in the arsenal of a coach and a pundit for that matter - statistics are an adjunct to observation and the formulation of opinion, they are not the be all and end all.

If one was to closely observe Messi, Cruyff, Maradona and many other great footballers and asses them as all round masters of the art form that we call football, then as good as Messi is at finishing, he is not up to Cruyff or Maradona or Pele and others.

People can argue that Messi is the greatest goalscorer of all time until the cows come home and they wouldn't lose the argument but to say that he is the "greatest footballer of all time" is quite another thing. Football is not just about finishing, just about passing, just about ball control, just about defending; it's about all of these things and more so to single out a person as being the greatest of all time just for his finishing prowess, is as weak and misguided as saying that Maldini was the greatest of all time because of his ability to stop opponents scoring.

The "best" must necessarily be the complete package and Messi unfortunately, has weekness when it comes to being the complete footballer and that's no disrespect to him as a footballer, that's just the way it is.
 
Back to the subject of this thread: it's brilliant for a lover of football that James Rodriguez has gone to Everton. He is a bloody good footballer and Ancelotti is building himself a really good side. Depends how quickly these players "bed in" as to how high they go this season but Rodriguez is an absolute star and I reckon the EPL will suit him.
 
Northalives said:
Back to the subject of this thread: it's brilliant for a lover of football that James Rodriguez has gone to Everton. He is a bloody good footballer and Ancelotti is building himself a really good side. Depends how quickly these players "bed in" as to how high they go this season but Rodriguez is an absolute star and I reckon the EPL will suit him.
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Isn't he washed up
 
Sozabarus said:
I get all this "oh, Maldini is a brilliant footballer, he's stuck in retirement, while it's Messi that's off winning all the Ballon d'Or's, and he's rubbish compared to Maldini" and I go "don't slag him off!" I say "Maldini's been there, he's done that, it's behind him". Thing is they're both good in their own fields. I'm sure Messi couldn't score the fastest goal in champions league final history from fullback, Maldini couldn't do wh... actually he could do what Messi does and I think he knew that even back then.
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The whole point is that to base "the world's greatest of all time" on popularity or a set of statistics is ridiculous as is the Maldini example I brought up and as you said, they are both good in their own fields but this "greatest of all time" guff that gets thrown around is ridiculous because people who use this throw away line, ie "greatest of all time", only do so because their reference point is just contemporaneous - it does not take into account the great players of the past and in Messi's case, a whole lot of other aspects of the game are simply ignored.

Surely the moniker of the greatest footballer of all time should go to the complete footballer, surely? Messi greatest striker of all time? no worries. Maldini greatest defender of all time, no worries but both of these players the greatest exponents of the art form of football? No.
 
northmelbournefc said:
Isn't he washed up
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He's 29 and still at his peak - getting to the end of it but still there. The game in England though will probably hasten his decline from the peak - it's a full on league but he, I reckon, has all the physical attributes to shine for a couple of years yet. It's going to be good to watch him.
 

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Northalives said:
and that's just it Bok, observation is the greatest weapon in the arsenal of a coach and a pundit for that matter - statistics are an adjunct to observation and the formulation of opinion, they are not the be all and end all.

If one was to closely observe Messi, Cruyff, Maradona and many other great footballers and asses them as all round masters of the art form that we call football, then as good as Messi is at finishing, he is not up to Cruyff or Maradona or Pele and others.

People can argue that Messi is the greatest goalscorer of all time until the cows come home and they wouldn't lose the argument but to say that he is the "greatest footballer of all time" is quite another thing. Football is not just about finishing, just about passing, just about ball control, just about defending; it's about all of these things and more so to single out a person as being the greatest of all time just for his finishing prowess, is as weak and misguided as saying that Maldini was the greatest of all time because of his ability to stop opponents scoring.

The "best" must necessarily be the complete package and Messi unfortunately, has weekness when it comes to being the complete footballer and that's no disrespect to him as a footballer, that's just the way it is.
Click to expand...

The question isn't most complete otherwise we'd be discussing Patrick Vieira or something. It's best
 

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