Transgender Discrimination AFL Lawsuit

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TheKITC

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Big Footy has not grown up I see time to cancel my account outa here
I hope you don't mind, but if you're still here I'd like to discuss some things with you, specifically things that you said in 2015 in your AMA thread.

...from my personal experience which is vindicated by the Stockholm Consensus, a transgender male to female person has no physical advantage over a genetically born female, my personal experience is that suppression then later on total loss of testosterone on top of estrogen treatment is a performance depressent so top line male to female trans athletes would be the a rarity.
Be interested to hear you expand on this. To go over some posts I made previously in this thread that nobody is really interested in touching it seems, would love to hear your opinion on some of the advantages biological males have over biological females that I have raised and supported with evidence. I strongly disagree with your opinion, particularly with the above bolded and think it's disingenuous to suggest that there are no advantages for trans-women. I'll be specific and copy what I've already written...

- Does hormone therapy change the angle and size of their pelvis to be more like women, which affects their ability to run? You've also mentioned the sex reassignment surgery impacted you, if that is relevant to this and the following also maybe?
- Does it change the persons ligament / muscle compositions? Generally, women have more fragile ligaments, lending to higher incidence of musculoskeletal injuries.
- Does it radically reduce a trans-woman's bone density or at all outside of natural aging?
- Do either HRT or SRS impact trans-womens ability to maintain their higher V02max than biological females?
- What about dozens of other advantages around reaction time, spacial awareness, control of large muscle, efficiency when converting calories into energy groups, larger pulmonary capacity etc that biological men have significant advantages in?
 

WestCoast05

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Posts have been deleted because they have nothing to do with the topic, which is a transgender discrimination lawsuit. Stick to the topic, don’t troll or act superior, lay off other posters and there’s no problem with having an opinion either way. If a user wishes to leave BF that’s their right and no one needs to question them.
Yep fair enough. Although I feel my deleted comment was on-topic because the nature of the debate is as integral as the topic itself.

But all G, will let it drop. Not a big deal.
Don't envy you - tough gig having to sort through these pages haha.
 

Wosh

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Yep fair enough. Although I feel my deleted comment was on-topic because the nature of the debate is as integral as the topic itself.

But all G, will let it drop. Not a big deal.
Don't envy you - tough gig having to sort through these pages haha.
Yes it is, no one wants to censor important discussions, but we all have to remember we’re a community here.
 

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ShanDog

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Just to expand on what Wosh has said - this thread is about the lawsuit and, more peripherally, the place of trans women in women's AFL. Both these topics are no problem to discuss as they directly relate to the thread.

However, the 'legitimacy' of trangender people, whether they are indeed male or female, and the difference between sex and gender are tangents. While a short back and forth to clarify info can be OK, if it derails the thread, it (and likely you) is gonesky.
 

Catsnlakers

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The AFL clearly like to stage manage their appearance. It's not a surprise they don't want to come out and say they simply don't want Mouncey to play in the women's comp, so they're dancing around the issue as best they can without getting anyone offside.
I agree with this take, the participation within the female ranks has been growing very quickly, but there’s no doubt in my mind the AFL believe that would stall by introducing trans athletes to play in the AFLW.....It’s just one of those situations where not everyone will agree, but the AFL does have a duty of care in regards to health & safety, as well as the continual build in young girls being able to play Footy in a competition that’s as fair as possible.
 

Lip Gallagher

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Ok, had my brothers come up with their kin this evening, 2 15 year old girls who have played AR for a long time, both were sympathetic until i showed them a pic of Hannah, both said no way would they play against her, take that for what it is.

1611328201802.png


Look at the definition in her arms.
 
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Bombermania

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Big Footy has not grown up I see time to cancel my account outa here
Hope you stay because this thread needs people who know what they are talking about.

I was reading on your twitter feed about the allowable testosterone levels in sport which leads me to the one thing that no one is talking about and that is the role of WADA because the main reason for allowable testosterone levels in sport is because of WADA's anti-doping rules.

Thinking about the differences between men and women, would that be lessened if the person wanting to play women's football only did so against adult women and that would mean they would only be completing against fully developed women instead of teenage girls that are still developing.
 
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All Aust

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Ok, had my brothers come up with their kin this evening, 2 15 year old girls who have played AR for a long time, both were sympathetic until i showed them a pic of Hannah, both said no way would they play against her, take that for what it is.

View attachment 1044539

Look at the definition in her arms.
And yet, if you superimpose the tacklers arm, the definition is pretty similar isn't it? I impress that the argument is (a) that Hannah is as a combination, taller and heavier than the most all all of women's contact sports participants. It is unknown in this case as to whether this equates to stronger and faster. Hannah says that she intends to legally contest the sporting bodies attempt to determine the latter through physical testing.

As a matter of interest, does anyone have height, weight and physical testing results for Women's American football (not lingerie)?

Although I have no intention of changing the opinion of 15 year girls. I have coached this age in Basketball both male and female. A common trait for the more successful kids of this age regardless of the sport or the opponent (some went on to being very good contact sports players), is that the opposition are going down! Size does not matter because there are other weaknesses to exploit when competing.
 
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Fadge

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Although I have no intention of changing the opinion of 15 year girls. I have coached this age in Basketball both male and female. A common trait for the more successful kids of this age regardless of the sport or the opponent (some went on to being very good contact sports players), is that the opposition are going down! Size does not matter because there are other weaknesses to exploit when competing.
Were any of the 'more successful kids' that you coached put in a position where they were competing against a transgender opponent, with similarly significantly greater physical attributes to those of Hannah (as per the video above)?
 

Fadge

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For those who believe Hannah should be eligible to play in the AFLW, and therefore establish a precedent for future cases, it is highly likely that many prospective AFLW players would decide not to play for any one (or more) of a multitude of reasons that have previously been highlighted in this thread.

What is a reasonable percentage of potential players to 'opt out' of the game if the likes of Hannah were able to participate?

Is the threshold 1%?

5%

10%

30%

50%

Because in addition to fundamental Health and Safety considerations, this is the conundrum the AFL is grappling with.
 

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All Aust

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If her testosterone levels are fine then all good right?
Political correctness gone mad.
In so much as this already occurs as a player to player proportion to give you a counter position. No way intended as a slight to players in these freely available images. The player in the images are good at their sport and haven't shied away from competing or challenges that come stereotyping.


1611352256837.png
1611353287452.png
 

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WestCoast05

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I was reading on your twitter feed about the allowable testosterone levels in sport which leads me to the one thing that no one is talking about and that is the role of WADA because the main reason for allowable testosterone levels in sport is because of WADA's anti-doping rules.
If her testosterone levels are fine then all good right?
In the UFC they used to allow TUE (therapeutic use exemptions) for TRT (testosterone replacement therapy), fighters naturally abused this legal doping loophole and it was finally banned in 2014.

I remember part of the furore that lead to it's ban was the ALLOWABLE testosterone levels were 4 times (from memory) an average man's T levels.
Not surprisingly once the TRT loophole became illegal all the big name fighters plummeted in ability and their physiques diminished (notable names such as Dan Henderson, Chael Sonnen, Forrest Griffin etc).

I'm just wondering what the ALLOWABLE testosterone levels would be in AFLW, or women's sport in general.
If it is anything like other sports then it may still be multiple times the amount of a regular female. Which of course is going to equal strength, muscle and aggression advantages far exceeding an average female even though the original testosterone levels of the person have been reduced.

So if the allowable levels are quite lenient someone born male who is now identifies as a female and wants to play women's professional sport may still have quite the testosterone advantage.

If trans athletes do want to play in women's sport (which personally I am not for atm) then at least a small compromise could be that they must medicate in such a way that their T levels must be the AVERAGE level of a female and not the ALLOWABLE level.

I'm certainly nowhere close to an expert on testosterone levels etc so am happy to be educated if I have read any of this wrong.
 

lusheslewis

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This debate involves numbers, and it can be easy to switch off. But bear in mind the following: women’s testosterone levels range from 0.52 to 2.42 nanomoles per litre, while men’s are 10.41 to 34.70nmol/L. Meanwhile the IOC guidelines for transgender athletes, published in 2015, require them to drop their levels to 10nmol/L for 12 months in order to compete as women – a figure much higher than normal.
 

Lip Gallagher

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And yet, if you superimpose the tacklers arm, the definition is pretty similar isn't it? I impress that the argument is (a) that Hannah is as a combination, taller and heavier than the most all all of women's contact sports participants. It is unknown in this case as to whether this equates to stronger and faster. Hannah says that she intends to legally contest the sporting bodies attempt to determine the latter through physical testing.

As a matter of interest, does anyone have height, weight and physical testing results for Women's American football (not lingerie)?

Although I have no intention of changing the opinion of 15 year girls. I have coached this age in Basketball both male and female. A common trait for the more successful kids of this age regardless of the sport or the opponent (some went on to being very good contact sports players), is that the opposition are going down! Size does not matter because there are other weaknesses to exploit when competing.
None of whom had to play against someone like Kirsty i'm betting.
 

JustaBattler

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She has every right to file a lawsuit against the AFL and the AFL will have every right to respond. If one seperates the obvious size differential from any argument it simplifies the matter. She will win her case.

Then all she has to do is find a team that is willing to sign her up.
 

Lip Gallagher

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She has every right to file a lawsuit against the AFL and the AFL will have every right to respond. If one seperates the obvious size differential from any argument it simplifies the matter. She will win her case.

Then all she has to do is find a team that is willing to sign her up.
And what happens if it goes her way and WAFL clubs refuse to sign her up, more law suits? Common sense must prevail.
 

Lip Gallagher

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I hope you don't mind, but if you're still here I'd like to discuss some things with you, specifically things that you said in 2015 in your AMA thread.



Be interested to hear you expand on this. To go over some posts I made previously in this thread that nobody is really interested in touching it seems, would love to hear your opinion on some of the advantages biological males have over biological females that I have raised and supported with evidence. I strongly disagree with your opinion, particularly with the above bolded and think it's disingenuous to suggest that there are no advantages for trans-women. I'll be specific and copy what I've already written...

- Does hormone therapy change the angle and size of their pelvis to be more like women, which affects their ability to run? You've also mentioned the sex reassignment surgery impacted you, if that is relevant to this and the following also maybe?
- Does it change the persons ligament / muscle compositions? Generally, women have more fragile ligaments, lending to higher incidence of musculoskeletal injuries.
- Does it radically reduce a trans-woman's bone density or at all outside of natural aging?
- Do either HRT or SRS impact trans-womens ability to maintain their higher V02max than biological females?
- What about dozens of other advantages around reaction time, spacial awareness, control of large muscle, efficiency when converting calories into energy groups, larger pulmonary capacity etc that biological men have significant advantages in?
Hand size must be considered as well, might sound silly but males have much larger hands on average compared to females, larger hands are a massive advantage in ball sports.

I honestly cannot believe this is a thing.

You wanna play sport fine, but play it as a man.
 

The Falcon Strike

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Isn’t the easy solution to simple have female sport and “open” sport

gender can be assigned by how someone identifies, biological sex can’t

so if you’re female - ie xx chromosomes - you can play female sport. If you’re not you can’t

with open sport anyone can play - including xx or xy (or the other extremely rare variantsif they so choose

no one is being excluded then

there is a balance required to be respectful of both internal struggles of a smal proportion of the population and fairness and equity as well

trans women, regardless of feelings, sensitivities etc - will always be male - that can’t be changed

there is no downside to using their preferred pro-nouns - that’s just common courtesy

but there comes a point when calling females “people with a uterus” - that the trans ideology becomes extreme and dehumanising to others

equally promoting (as an example) that women need to be checked for prostate cancer is downright confusing and misleading
 

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