NO TROLLS Transgender Discrimination AFL Lawsuit

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telsor said:
Yes.

The argument is that 'trans' have transitioned to become 'blokes' or 'girls' and thus should be treated as such in all ways, including on the sporting field.

The issue at hand is if their right to do so impinges on the rights of others to fair, safe sporting competition and how those competing rights stack up against each other.
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Yeah/nah - biology tell the truth, the rest is just being silly.
 
Off Tap said:
Mouncy would just destroy the chicks.

I was only 75kg's when I played but if I was allowed to play against the girls, some of the bumps that you'd be able to lay on them would be epic. A real chance for some very serious, serious injury.

Apart from being able to shower with the girls, I couldn't see why you'd want to play against them.

I'm not transgender though.
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made my morning.
 
The Passenger said:
This is a huge minefield. I'm 100% for transgender rights and to live their life free of discrimination.

But there's a big difference between living discrimination free and running around on a women's football field where you could cause physical harm to another person who would normally not come up against someone of your size.

People can get testosterone counts so the obvious first step is that number needs to get below a certain threshold. But even that may not be enough - men are typically more muscular then women... Does that change after transitioning? I would need to refer to someone more familiar with the process.

The problem in all of this is height. A women may lose muscle, weight and testosterone during transitioning, but they won't lose height. Which will mean they'll go from an average male physique to a big women's physique and that's not fair.
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most people are fully grown adults by the time they come out as transgender.

Once you are already fully grown reducing testosterones wont do much in the way of reducing size by a drastic amount.
 

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The Passenger said:
This is a huge minefield. I'm 100% for transgender rights and to live their life free of discrimination.
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Even though we have anti-discrimination laws, there are exemptions given. We discriminate all the time, a shop that sells bras can discriminate against men applying for jobs there. In 2007 a woman's shelter received general exemption from the courts to discriminate against M-F transgender women after a case where one woman with male genitalia was walking around naked which was traumatic for some of the women.

I think it comes down to does the discrimination serve a purpose and if it is reasonable... or is the discrimination unfair. The problem with the legislation is that it is vague as hell and we will need case law to determine the intended interpretation of the law in practical matters.

But there's a big difference between living discrimination free and running around on a women's football field where you could cause physical harm to another person who would normally not come up against someone of your size.
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On face value this is a weak argument imo, when I played footy I had to play on guys who could kill me, should we ban players like Sandilands from playing on the same grounds? We seem to accept there is a genetic lottery. The tallest women's basketball player was Margo Dydek, she was 218cm and weighed 128kg. There have been bigger women, mostly due to tumours in the pituitary gland which cause the release of uncontrolled growth hormones, but someone like Margo wasn't the result of a tumour. Are we going to ban women like Margo from competing on the same grounds that they could hurt other women?

We must ensure we do not cloud our own judgement with the presumption that women are weak, frail and need our protection.

People can get testosterone counts so the obvious first step is that number needs to get below a certain threshold. But even that may not be enough - men are typically more muscular then women... Does that change after transitioning? I would need to refer to someone more familiar with the process.
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Yes, you lose a significant amount of muscle mass as your testosterone declines, look at Arnold Schwarzenegger now, he still works out religiously but he is flabby, impressive for his age but he isn't producing anywhere near as much testosterone now. There are things you can't undo through hormone therapy, like the skeletal structure and bone density, there have been studies between men and women of the same height and weight, there was greater skeletal integrity in males which would give a competitive advantage.

The problem in all of this is height. A women may lose muscle, weight and testosterone during transitioning, but they won't lose height. Which will mean they'll go from an average male physique to a big women's physique and that's not fair.
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Height isn't the only factor, strength is a factor in football but it isn't the overwhelming factor. If it was an overwhelming factor we would fill our sides with NFL linebackers. Generally speaking, US college basketballers and footballers compete poorly, you basically need the capacity to run a mini-marathon at whatever dimensions you are, carrying a lot of weight is a lot harder, it puts a lot more stress on your body. USA athletes are great when it comes to sprints, vertical leaps, agility, etc, the endurance is usually their Achilles heel.

Sure, you can prop up someone big at full forward and get a competitive advantage from the height alone, but we have developed effective defensive strategies to mitigate that disadvantage. Men's teams push tall ruckmen forward, Sandilands used to get the odd goal but he never dominated despite towering over the defenders.

If the AFLW had a law 7+ feet tall women couldn't play AFLW for the same reason transgender women like Mouncey aren't allowed to play due to the concern about the average AFLW player getting hurt then there would be some consistency to the argument. If, however, you do not have an issue with a 7 feet tall woman playing AFLW but you do with a transgendered woman the size of Mouncey for example, then I think it is a discriminative point of view because the issue wouldn't be the safety of women, it would be not liking a transgender woman injuring non-transgendered woman and I think in that lense it is not really accepting the transgendered person as a woman, which is the crux of the issues that the transgendered face in general.

They either are accepted as women and are afforded the same rights of discrimination or they are not women, there is no point having the rhetoric and the laws if we do not enforce it. We should at least be honest with ourselves, if not others.

I think there is an argument for physical differences and the advantages they offer, when it comes to things like bone mass and density developed during the growth period. But, how much of an advantage is it I am not sure, there are bound to be numerous disadvantages with transitioning and hormone therapy. It would have to be something scientific you can measure and make the determination that the net difference is material enough to warrant discriminating or seeking an exemption to discriminate.
 
Tas said:
I think there is an argument for physical differences and the advantages they offer, when it comes to things like bone mass and density developed during the growth period. But, how much of an advantage is it I am not sure, there are bound to be numerous disadvantages with transitioning and hormone therapy. It would have to be something scientific you can measure and make the determination that the net difference is material enough to warrant discriminating or seeking an exemption to discriminate.
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It's an incredibly difficult issue and gets more so the further you look into it. The physical advantages and disadvantages do not at all apply equally across different sports.
 
Fadge said:
It should be about both.

Why are there currently separate leagues for adult males and females at all levels, when skill-wise a small percentage of the more talented females could mix it with the less talented males?
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Because very few sports are just about skill. And by the time they reach about age 14 or so the athletic gap between boys and girls is huge and never closes.

Pick any AFLW side and put them against your local under 16 boys footy team. Watch what happens.
 

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telsor said:
Yes.

The argument is that 'trans' have transitioned to become 'blokes' or 'girls' and thus should be treated as such in all ways, including on the sporting field.

The issue at hand is if their right to do so impinges on the rights of others to fair, safe sporting competition and how those competing rights stack up against each other.
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No one really gives a s**t if a trans man wants to compete against men. Even someone like Liz Cambage who is 203cm tall (the equivalent for a man compared to the average height is about 220cm) and a WNBL MVP wouldn't get a game in the NBL let alone have a physical advantage. Likewise if someone who identifies as a man and doesn't have a wang wants to use the men's bathroom, most people who don't believe in the modern thinking of 'you are whoever you feel you are' will just say 'righto uirnal is over there, knock yourself out'.

It always comes back to trans women competing against women and trans women using women's bathrooms etc. Bruce Jenner was 6'2 and 88kg and won the Olympic decathlon. I know he transitioned 30 years later but if he was 'always a women' how do people feel about Caitlyn Jenner competing in the 1980 (boycotted) or 1984 Olympics?
 
Ex wrestler has recently transitioned - how would the wafl girls respond if a trans this size was cleared to play?
 

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Partridge said:
Because very few sports are just about skill. And by the time they reach about age 14 or so the athletic gap between boys and girls is huge and never closes.

Pick any AFLW side and put them against your local under 16 boys footy team. Watch what happens.
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The key words in my comment were:
'Small percentage of the more talented females', combined with
'Less talented males'.

I reckon if I picked an All-Star Team from the AFLW sides and picked the worst players from a handful of the E Grade Ammos Reserve teams, the ladies would go ok.
 
Fadge said:
I reckon if I picked an All-Star Team from the AFLW sides and picked the worst players from a handful of the E Grade Ammos Reserve teams, the ladies would go ok.
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Probably, but what happens when they start laying some serious tackles? The biggest issue is the capacity to get hurt by bigger opponents.
 
Scotland said:
No one really gives a sh*t if a trans man wants to compete against men. Even someone like Liz Cambage who is 203cm tall (the equivalent for a man compared to the average height is about 220cm) and a WNBL MVP wouldn't get a game in the NBL let alone have a physical advantage. Likewise if someone who identifies as a man and doesn't have a wang wants to use the men's bathroom, most people who don't believe in the modern thinking of 'you are whoever you feel you are' will just say 'righto uirnal is over there, knock yourself out'.

It always comes back to trans women competing against women and trans women using women's bathrooms etc. Bruce Jenner was 6'2 and 88kg and won the Olympic decathlon. I know he transitioned 30 years later but if he was 'always a women' how do people feel about Caitlyn Jenner competing in the 1980 (boycotted) or 1984 Olympics?
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The law doesn't care if "No one really gives a sh*t "

In the courts is will be about rights and legal arguments, and I doubt anything you said would come close to either legal teams thinking.

For what you said to apply, it would be a matter for politicians to (re)write laws that reflect what people think, but they're all too gutless to go anywhere near issues like this.
 
Tas said:
They either are accepted as women and are afforded the same rights of discrimination or they are not women, there is no point having the rhetoric and the laws if we do not enforce it. We should at least be honest with ourselves, if not others.
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Gender vs Sex

Sports are segregated based upon the different biological capacity of sex, therefore it’s possible to allow people to live free of discrimination as the gender (or not gender as it might be) of their choice, whilst still having sex segregated sporting competitions.
 
Bostonian said:
We've seen the damage men v men can do. They have a choice to do that though

The damage from men on women would be worse. And biological women won't get to have a say if they want to play against a man.

It will be forced upon them.
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I'll leave this here:

One of the biggest and strongest women in AFLW next to a small forward. Clear advantages to structure and definition.

 
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