Transgender Discrimination AFL Lawsuit

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owen87

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Apr 23, 2016
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I think the more research that is done, the better.

I think people questioning research by experts in their field is a bit anti-science though. Sure, scientists don't always get it right, but it is the job of other scientists to figure it out, science isn't really a buffet for people to pick and choose which ones are compatible with their own expectations or point of view.
With any elite athletes there's always the prospect of PEDs, which (at least in my opinion) are a lot more common than people think, plus your inter-sex types. Those female values are something else if you look at the distribution, I'd be very skeptical they were representative.
 

Bjchan13

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There are female athletes who are way over 5 nmol/L, in one study had 11 of 234 female athletes tested over 8 nmol/L.

"Bekker and Tannenbaum argued there were no clear lines in the sand about what a “male” or “female” level of testosterone was, pointing to one study in which 74 of 446 male athletes had testosterone levels below the “normal male” lower limit of 8.4 nmol/L while 32 of 234 female athletes had levels above the upper “normal female” limit of 2.7 nmol/L. Eleven female athletes had levels over 8 nmol/L.

“What we are seeing is the policing of women’s bodies, problematically framed as fairness or protecting other women,” said Bekker. “We don’t need to be protected from women just as men in sport aren’t protected from other men.”


IAAF have had the 5 nmol/L limitation for female athletes for running distances of 400m+, it isn't just a transgender limitation but applies to all female athletes. If you are a female runner and you are naturally over 5 nmol/L they will force you to take drugs to lower your testosterone level of they will ban you from competing in 400m+ distances.

I can understand that for running, going from A to B is all that matters in that sport, nothing else matters. Many guys who blitz the running tests at the combine have turned out to be some of the worst footballers we have produced. For sports like weightlifting or running where physical attributes overwhelmingly determine how good you will be at the sport I think it is important to have a fair environment but sport has always been at the whim of genetic lottery. They are trying to control that in female sports, but not in male sports.

This issue was highlighted by the Caster Semenya case, a women who was identified as female at birth but is intersexed, she has XX chromosomes, identities as a cis woman. She had to take a sex test to make sure she was female. She refused to take drugs to alter herself and I can understand their frustration, there are no such requirements in male sport to level the playing field and limit men with abnormal testosterone levels from competing.

When it comes to AFL being stronger or faster doesn't necessarily mean you will be a good footballer, a lot of big strong men stink at AFL. My point is even if you are taller or faster or whatever, it in itself doesn't automatically make you better at AFL. Being tall and strong can be an advantage in some positions, it can also be a liability. AFL isn't an exhibition of the biggest and the largest and the strongest men we can produce, the game isn't dominated by these types of players, the average AFL footballer isn't anywhere near the top end of male capabilities. Why are we fixated with what the top end of female size and strength is capable of?

It is this lack of nuance which isn't a part of transgender conversation in AFL.
Hannah isn't disputing the testosterone limits that the AFL has set.
"Inclusion of transgender athletes the elephant in the room during AFLW's Pride Round - ABC News" https://amp.abc.net.au/article/13130474
 

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Laphroaig

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The strongest men, the fasted men... are not AFL footballers. We have much stronger men, much faster men, they are not the best AFL footballers. If strength and speed is such a clutch in AFL then why aren't the strongest, tallest, fastest dominating the men's competition?

Dangerfield is fast, but he has skills that are not easy to replicate. We have tried with numerous dropout NBA/NFL players who blitz Australian men in almost every category other than endurance and the best we can come up with is Cox.

There is more to the game than just being stronger or faster.
Thank god Sherlock Holmes is on the case.

Your logic reminds me of Money doesn't buy you happiness. On the other hand, if you're going to be unhappy then you're better off being rich and unhappy than poor and unhappy ten times out of ten.

Male strength, speed and oxygenation ARE advantages, and it is fatuous to argue otherwise. In the case of contact sports against females, it is a potentially dangerous advantage as well as being grossly unjust to the female athlete.
 

Laphroaig

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There are female athletes who are way over 5 nmol/L, in one study had 11 of 234 female athletes tested over 8 nmol/L.

"Bekker and Tannenbaum argued there were no clear lines in the sand about what a “male” or “female” level of testosterone was, pointing to one study in which 74 of 446 male athletes had testosterone levels below the “normal male” lower limit of 8.4 nmol/L while 32 of 234 female athletes had levels above the upper “normal female” limit of 2.7 nmol/L. Eleven female athletes had levels over 8 nmol/L.

“What we are seeing is the policing of women’s bodies, problematically framed as fairness or protecting other women,” said Bekker. “We don’t need to be protected from women just as men in sport aren’t protected from other men.”


IAAF have had the 5 nmol/L limitation for female athletes for running distances of 400m+, it isn't just a transgender limitation but applies to all female athletes. If you are a female runner and you are naturally over 5 nmol/L they will force you to take drugs to lower your testosterone level of they will ban you from competing in 400m+ distances.

I can understand that for running, going from A to B is all that matters in that sport, nothing else matters. Many guys who blitz the running tests at the combine have turned out to be some of the worst footballers we have produced. For sports like weightlifting or running where physical attributes overwhelmingly determine how good you will be at the sport I think it is important to have a fair environment but sport has always been at the whim of genetic lottery. They are trying to control that in female sports, but not in male sports.

This issue was highlighted by the Caster Semenya case, a women who was identified as female at birth but is intersexed, she has XX chromosomes, identities as a cis woman. She had to take a sex test to make sure she was female. She refused to take drugs to alter herself and I can understand their frustration, there are no such requirements in male sport to level the playing field and limit men with abnormal testosterone levels from competing.

When it comes to AFL being stronger or faster doesn't necessarily mean you will be a good footballer, a lot of big strong men stink at AFL. My point is even if you are taller or faster or whatever, it in itself doesn't automatically make you better at AFL. Being tall and strong can be an advantage in some positions, it can also be a liability. AFL isn't an exhibition of the biggest and the largest and the strongest men we can produce, the game isn't dominated by these types of players, the average AFL footballer isn't anywhere near the top end of male capabilities. Why are we fixated with what the top end of female size and strength is capable of?

It is this lack of nuance which isn't a part of transgender conversation in AFL.
Just another version of the outlier argument.

Take a small number of outliers, assume without justification that their presence has a particular meaning, and then apply these dubious conclusions to all people. Abra cadabra you have "proved" that there is no problem with these images:

hm1.jpg
hm2.jpg



And yet. The first reaction most people would have to THIS image is that the athlete in question should be banned.

china.jpg
 

Leeda

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Sep 26, 2012
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Thank god Sherlock Holmes is on the case.

Your logic reminds me of Money doesn't buy you happiness. On the other hand, if you're going to be unhappy then you're better off being rich and unhappy than poor and unhappy ten times out of ten.

Male strength, speed and oxygenation ARE advantages, and it is fatuous to argue otherwise. In the case of contact sports against females, it is a potentially dangerous advantage as well as being grossly unjust to the female athlete.
stats are there for a reason.. physicality is there as a moniker to say that things are as they are...
logic is as logic does... the reckoning is apparent already... some things just don't need to be mixed..
 

Kwality

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There are female athletes who are way over 5 nmol/L, in one study had 11 of 234 female athletes tested over 8 nmol/L.

"Bekker and Tannenbaum argued there were no clear lines in the sand about what a “male” or “female” level of testosterone was, pointing to one study in which 74 of 446 male athletes had testosterone levels below the “normal male” lower limit of 8.4 nmol/L while 32 of 234 female athletes had levels above the upper “normal female” limit of 2.7 nmol/L. Eleven female athletes had levels over 8 nmol/L.

“What we are seeing is the policing of women’s bodies, problematically framed as fairness or protecting other women,” said Bekker. “We don’t need to be protected from women just as men in sport aren’t protected from other men.”


IAAF have had the 5 nmol/L limitation for female athletes for running distances of 400m+, it isn't just a transgender limitation but applies to all female athletes. If you are a female runner and you are naturally over 5 nmol/L they will force you to take drugs to lower your testosterone level of they will ban you from competing in 400m+ distances.

I can understand that for running, going from A to B is all that matters in that sport, nothing else matters. Many guys who blitz the running tests at the combine have turned out to be some of the worst footballers we have produced. For sports like weightlifting or running where physical attributes overwhelmingly determine how good you will be at the sport I think it is important to have a fair environment but sport has always been at the whim of genetic lottery. They are trying to control that in female sports, but not in male sports.

This issue was highlighted by the Caster Semenya case, a women who was identified as female at birth but is intersexed, she has XX chromosomes, identities as a cis woman. She had to take a sex test to make sure she was female. She refused to take drugs to alter herself and I can understand their frustration, there are no such requirements in male sport to level the playing field and limit men with abnormal testosterone levels from competing.

When it comes to AFL being stronger or faster doesn't necessarily mean you will be a good footballer, a lot of big strong men stink at AFL. My point is even if you are taller or faster or whatever, it in itself doesn't automatically make you better at AFL. Being tall and strong can be an advantage in some positions, it can also be a liability. AFL isn't an exhibition of the biggest and the largest and the strongest men we can produce, the game isn't dominated by these types of players, the average AFL footballer isn't anywhere near the top end of male capabilities. Why are we fixated with what the top end of female size and strength is capable of?

It is this lack of nuance which isn't a part of transgender conversation in AFL.
It is this lack of nuance which isn't a part of transgender conversation in AFL.
How so? The situation is a transgender footballer wants to play in the womens comp & will exclude a female from a game in the name of inclusion.
 

Leeda

Talons B Sharp
Sep 26, 2012
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It is this lack of nuance which isn't a part of transgender conversation in AFL.
How so? The situation is a transgender footballer wants to play in the womens comp & will exclude a female from a game in the name of inclusion.
Roger over and out...
 

blckcaviar

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This issue was highlighted by the Caster Semenya case, a women who was identified as female at birth but is intersexed, she has XX chromosomes, identities as a cis woman. She had to take a sex test to make sure she was female. She refused to take drugs to alter herself and I can understand their frustration, there are no such requirements in male sport to level the playing field and limit men with abnormal testosterone levels from competing.
Please do better research, Caster Semenya has XY chromosomes, that makes "her" a biological male. "She" has 3 times the normal testosterone for women and looks masculine, because she is a biological male, with genital irregularities and hormonal conditions.
 

blckcaviar

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I think people questioning research by experts in their field is a bit anti-science though. Sure, scientists don't always get it right, but it is the job of other scientists to figure it out, science isn't really a buffet for people to pick and choose which ones are compatible with their own expectations or point of view.
Oh dear. In this day and age, we need special gender scientists to tell us now that according to their "inclusive" research, men in dresses who take hormones are actually the same as biological women?

Science has and always will be on the side of biological sex. Not a dozen different "genders" and "zie" and "zer" pronouns and identifying as "non-binary" and claiming to be the opposite sex than the one you were born as. Insisting on taking over every aspect of that other sexes existence (like female sports and female prisons) just so they can feel "valid". I think its wrong.
 

owen87

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Please do better research, Caster Semenya has XY chromosomes, that makes "her" a biological male. "She" has 3 times the normal testosterone for women and looks masculine, because she is a biological male, with genital irregularities and hormonal conditions.
Semenya is also not really an analogous situation to that of a transgender athlete anyway, using the example of inter-sex athletes like Semenya (there's a few others as well from memory) as an argument for transgender athletes competing in the women's competition is a bit of a misnomer.
 

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blckcaviar

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Semenya is also not really an analogous situation to that of a transgender athlete anyway, using the example of inter-sex athletes like Semenya (there's a few others as well from memory) as an argument for transgender athletes competing in the women's competition is a bit of a misnomer.
It's interesting that intersex individuals like Caster, with XY chromosomes, lacking an uterus or ovaries and with internal testes, are so rare but in 2016 all 3 of the medallists for the women's 800m were intersex.

Here's a quote: "Well sports scientist Ross Tucker – who actually testified on behalf of Semenya before the Court of Arbitration for Sport... – has described the presence of the Y-chromosome as the “THE single greatest genetic “advantage” a person can have.”
 

owen87

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It's interesting that intersex individuals like Caster, with XY chromosomes, lacking an uterus or ovaries and with internal testes, are so rare but in 2016 all 3 of the medallists for the women's 800m were intersex.

Here's a quote: "Well sports scientist Ross Tucker – who actually testified on behalf of Semenya before the Court of Arbitration for Sport... – has described the presence of the Y-chromosome as the “THE single greatest genetic “advantage” a person can have.”
Tucker's blog is one of my favourites, provides some very well researched stuff on a number of topics
 

Tas

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There can be only one...
Please do better research, Caster Semenya has XY chromosomes, that makes "her" a biological male. "She" has 3 times the normal testosterone for women and looks masculine, because she is a biological male, with genital irregularities and hormonal conditions.
Yeah, i meant XY chromosomes. She was assigned female at birth but has 5α-Reductase deficiency.

This is a bigger issue than just transgenderism because roughly 10% of women have hyperandrogenism, often caused by cysts on women ovaries which causes the abnormal production of testosterone and some women develop tumors in their pituitary glands which causes substantial growth and massively elevated testosterone levels.

Are we going to start policing what is normal and what isn't when it comes to biological men and women as well?
 

blckcaviar

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Yeah, i meant XY chromosomes. She was assigned female at birth but has 5α-Reductase deficiency.

This is a bigger issue than just transgenderism because roughly 10% of women have hyperandrogenism, often caused by cysts on women ovaries which causes the abnormal production of testosterone and some women develop tumors in their pituitary glands which causes substantial growth and massively elevated testosterone levels.

Are we going to start policing what is normal and what isn't when it comes to biological men and women as well?
Its only a bigger issue since "gender" became the way to differentiate athletes. It used to be "sex", and then it was simpler, because this can be proven with chromosome testing.

The argument around transgender women shouldn't be "they're a different type of woman, here are other different types of women, how should we deal with that..." It should be that at their essence (biology and sex-based), transwomen aren't female. Sport should be based on male and female. Not genders.
 

RobbieGray17

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The strongest men, the fasted men... are not AFL footballers. We have much stronger men, much faster men, they are not the best AFL footballers. If strength and speed is such a clutch in AFL then why aren't the strongest, tallest, fastest dominating the men's competition?

Dangerfield is fast, but he has skills that are not easy to replicate. We have tried with numerous dropout NBA/NFL players who blitz Australian men in almost every category other than endurance and the best we can come up with is Cox.

There is more to the game than just being stronger or faster.
Why? because someone who can run 10 seconds in 100m is NOT going to play AFL.

Also, I wasn't really sure what point you were making in relation to my comments.
 

RobbieGray17

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That is great, I didn't claim they were comparable. I was referring to trans woman who had undergone 2+ years of HRT, their muscle mass and strength declines during HRT. How much? I do not know.



If Joeline is happy as Joeline then I am happy for her. Do I think she should be allowed to play AFLW? It depends. There are 7 feet tall women, should they be allowed to play AFLW? Granted they are a lot rarer, but I think any determination should be scientific/evidence based and what would constitute an unfair advantage, because there were professional female basketballers taller and heavier than Aaron Sandilands. Would you ban women like that from playing AFLW on the basis of fairness or safety? Would you ban a 170cm trans woman who is of a small frame? She would be smaller than Erin Phillips.

I think people drag out the most extreme cases and refuse to consider anything else more to convince themselves than anyone else. I want to know if people have the same sensibilities if 7 feet tall non-trans women start appearing wanting to play AFL.




I think if it was a sport where strength alone was a critical attribute then it would be something that should have more accurate scientific data, like weightlifting. All that matters is strength and technique.

Being tall and being strong has advantages, but the Brownlow medalist is 177cm tall. How can he be the best player in the competition despite there being 200+cm players 20+kg heavier players, how is this possible in a world where height and muscle mass is everything? If all we look are just the numbers it gives us a distorted image of what AFL is about.



I don't think I missed the point, i just don't think there is any merit to that argument.



AFL guidelines suggest two or more years at 5 nmol/L or less for testosterone levels is enough to reduce the gap in terms of muscle mass and strength to comparable sized women. They still need to submit their height, weight, bench press, 20m sprint, vertical jump, 2km time trial and gps data to the AFL for them to consider.



This will be a problem when Mr Universe contestants are playing AFL. Yes, there are long term and permanent effects of growing up with elevated testosterone and weight lifters and body builders take that to an extreme. But, if gaining size was much of an enhancement to performance, why don't men bulk up to muscle mass they could comfortably get to without supplements? Why haven't the biggest players dominated this sport?

Perhaps there is more to AFL than being taller and stronger?
The 7ft argument you make is flawed. The tallest women in sport are not muscular. Those 7ft women are no more dangerous than the 6ft AFLW players. Even if you use Lauren Jackson and Liz Cambridge as examples, both are somewhat lean with typical bodyfat for a female. Take one look at Mouncey and you can see how solid she is and she want's to play AFL as she is now. Anyone could take one look at Mouncey and see she has the characteristics of a man. Is that not enough to indicate the unfairness of accepting trans athletes in sport.

When I made the point about trans athletes being over the threshold and being able to come down to the level required I used Joel Embiid as an example. If he came down to the required level he would have gained the unfair advantage of testosterone throughout his professional career. Joel could play 1 vs 5 and literally destroy the best all star wnba team.

When people use HRT treatment and transwomen as examples in muscle loss, that is also flawed. Unlike Hannah Mouncey, and Laurel Hubbard, those transwomen are taking a certain amount of HRT to appear very feminine. The two athletes are merely dropping to an appropriate t-level. Both have very masculine bodies and even comparing to some of the strongest strength athletes (Excluding sports that aren't drug tested, or poorly policed) they are much larger.

The point about the Brownlow medal was about what? It had no relevance at all
 

Tas

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The 7ft argument you make is flawed. The tallest women in sport are not muscular. Those 7ft women are no more dangerous than the 6ft AFLW players. Even if you use Lauren Jackson and Liz Cambridge as examples, both are somewhat lean with typical bodyfat for a female. Take one look at Mouncey and you can see how solid she is and she want's to play AFL as she is now. Anyone could take one look at Mouncey and see she has the characteristics of a man. Is that not enough to indicate the unfairness of accepting trans athletes in sport.
She is already playing AFL and she hasn't killed anyone yet. She is just forced to play second division in the Canberra league, she wants to play first division where the women in first division are a higher quality competition. She is forced to play in a division where she has a much greater advantage, she doesn't think it is fair to the women of that division. She doesn't want to play in the AFLW.

When I made the point about trans athletes being over the threshold and being able to come down to the level required I used Joel Embiid as an example. If he came down to the required level he would have gained the unfair advantage of testosterone throughout his professional career. Joel could play 1 vs 5 and literally destroy the best all star wnba team.
My point, which you have ignored, is that there is a significant variability even within just males. You accept that at AFL level we have a sport where both Neale and Sandilands can compete in the same sport, at the same level. Do you think they are physically remotely comparable? Do you think Neale can compete against Sandilands for size and strength? No, genetically they are worlds apart. That didn't stop them from being able to compete at the same level. If Mouncey was 7-8 feet at a range which is extremely unlikely that women can grow to that level then it would be an issue. As you yourself have pointed out, women like Liz do naturally grow to a comparable size to someone even as tall as Mouncey. What testosterone levels are required to ensure a fair playing environment? I do not know. IAAF used 5 nmol/L of testosterone for 6 months, AFL's guidelines is for 5 over 2 years.

Are these institutions just plucking numbers out of their arse or is this based on any scientific evidence?

When people use HRT treatment and transwomen as examples in muscle loss, that is also flawed. Unlike Hannah Mouncey, and Laurel Hubbard, those transwomen are taking a certain amount of HRT to appear very feminine. The two athletes are merely dropping to an appropriate t-level. Both have very masculine bodies and even comparing to some of the strongest strength athletes (Excluding sports that aren't drug tested, or poorly policed) they are much larger.
Are you now also now an expert on HRT therapy?

The point about the Brownlow medal was about what? It had no relevance at all
My point, which has obviously gone way over your head, is that we have huge male athletes and then we have guys like Neale, he was not only able to compete but the umpires said he was the best player in the league. My point is that even though there is a massive variance in size and strength between the smallest and the largest male players through genetic variability, they can both compete in the same league and the smaller guys can even excel to be the best players in the league. That massive difference doesn't exclude guys the size of Neale from playing, there is a lot more to AFL than just size and strength.

Is the difference between transgender women who are forced to abide by the AFL's testosterone control material enough to discriminate, that is my point and I do not have the answers. Someone who has concocted these guidelines for the various sports must have had some scientific evidence to base it off, surely they didn't just throw darts at a dartboard to conjure up a number.

AFL should make a call about being inclusive, or just exclude them and say fu** it, we are going to take the hit. AFL wants to parade around being a progressive organisation but it is giving lip service only when it comes to trans footballers. If you are going to talk the talk, then walk the walk.
 
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Tas

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Why? because someone who can run 10 seconds in 100m is NOT going to play AFL.

Also, I wasn't really sure what point you were making in relation to my comments.
My point is the differential between trans women and biological women is probably unlikely to be materially greater than the natural variability that exists. AFL isn't a mechanical sport, being fast is an advantage, being tall is an advantage, being strong is an advantage. But... the game hasn't naturally attracted the tallest, the strongest nor the fastest men. These attributes alone are not enough to be elite at AFL level. You need to be good at football first, the rest are just factors that give you advantages or disadvantages.

There are usually limitations associated with all these strengths, fast guys generally are leaner, they often break down physically at AFL level. Tall guys and muscular guys generally lack the endurance, this is primarily why genetically superior athletes from the NBA/NFL do not make the transition well into AFL, most suffer when it comes to endurance. AFL is a sport where endurance matters.

When you just focus your opinions around strength and strength alone, you are glossing over what it requires to compete at AFL standard. If you are talking about running sports ro weightlifting, jumping, etc, these are mechanical sports there is nothing other than physical attributes and technique, it is all the sport revolves around, how well you scored in the genetic lottery and how well you can apply it. These sports need a more level playing field. There is such a massive variance in terms of size and shape of players and their attributes it seems silly to me to focus on one aspect of it and it being the hill you die on defending the AFL position.
 

Bjchan13

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She is already playing AFL and she hasn't killed anyone yet. She is just forced to play second division in the Canberra league, she wants to play first division where the women in first division are a higher quality competition. She is forced to play in a division where she has a much greater advantage, she doesn't think it is fair to the women of that division. She doesn't want to play in the AFLW.



My point, which you have ignored, is that there is a significant variability even within just males. You accept that at AFL level we have a sport where both Neale and Sandilands can compete in the same sport, at the same level. Do you think they are physically remotely comparable? Do you think Neale can compete against Sandilands for size and strength? No, genetically they are worlds apart. That didn't stop them from being able to compete at the same level. If Mouncey was 7-8 feet at a range which is extremely unlikely that women can grow to that level then it would be an issue. As you yourself have pointed out, women like Liz do naturally grow to a comparable size to someone even as tall as Mouncey. What testosterone levels are required to ensure a fair playing environment? I do not know. IAAF used 5 nmol/L of testosterone for 6 months, AFL's guidelines is for 5 over 2 years.

Are these institutions just plucking numbers out of their arse or is this based on any scientific evidence?



Are you now also now an expert on HRT therapy?



My point, which has obviously gone way over your head, is that we have huge male athletes and then we have guys like Neale, he was not only able to compete but the umpires said he was the best player in the league. My point is that even through there is a massive variance in size and strength between the smallest and the largest male players through genetic variability, they can both compete in the same league and the smaller guys can even excel to be the best players in the league. That massive difference doesn't exclude guys the size of Neale from playing, there is a lot more to AFL than just size and strength.

Is the difference between transgender women who are forced to abide by the AFL's testosterone control material enough to discriminate, that is my point and I do not have the answers. Someone who has concocted these guidelines for the various sports must have had some scientific evidence to base it off, surely they didn't just throw darts at a dartboard to conjure up a number.

AFL should make a call about being inclusive, or just exclude them and say fu** it, we are going to take the hit. AFL wants to parade around being a progressive organisation but it is giving lip service only when it comes to trans footballers. If you are going to talk the talk, then walk the walk.
You're too late. The AFL already has a gender diversity policy. Transwomen can already play AFLW if they meet the criteria.
 

Tas

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There can be only one...
You're too late. The AFL already has a gender diversity policy. Transwomen can already play AFLW if they meet the criteria.
We do have one, but according to Foxsports the LGBTQI+ community told the AFL that their new policies were "discriminatory and more about exclusion than inclusion, were not fit for purpose and in many ways offensive - that they would drive potential trans and gender diverse players away from the game".

It was a bit unfortunate that the first trans woman who wanted to play AFLW was on the large side and had a history of competing in competitive sports, now we have every Neanderthal who has become an expert in biology giving their well informed opinions on something that will negatively impact a lot of trans athletes that are nowhere near the same size or strength as Mouncey.

I think it is fine if the AFL do not want trans women playing in the AFLW, they should just have the stones to come out and say it rather than create a bureaucratic quagmire for trans women.
 

Laphroaig

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My point, which has obviously gone way over your head, is that we have huge male athletes and then we have guys like Neale, he was not only able to compete but the umpires said he was the best player in the league. My point is that even though there is a massive variance in size and strength between the smallest and the largest male players through genetic variability, they can both compete in the same league and the smaller guys can even excel to be the best players in the league. That massive difference doesn't exclude guys the size of Neale from playing, there is a lot more to AFL than just size and strength.
Everybody knows what your point is. It's based on false logic and wishes.

Testosterone generated muscle mass is only one of a suite of significant advantages male physiology provides. You can try to brush one or all of them away by banging on about other unrelated physical differences within sexes as much as you like. The boat doesn't float.

PS. The smart money says that administrators buckling in the face of a noisy minority probably DID pull the numbers out of their clackers. How else could they be so different from organisation to organisation?
 

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