NO TROLLS Transgender Discrimination AFL Lawsuit

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We've just got women playing the game and now some think they should be expected to play against females who were born male, sure i get the testosterone thing but males are typically born with much larger skeletal structures.

Lots of people are unable to play sport for a vast variety of reasons, unfortuantly being transgender should be one of them, unless they choose to play (in this case) in a mens comp. (IMO)
 
Lip Gallagher said:
We've just got women playing the game and now some think they should be expected to play against females who were born male, sure i get the testosterone thing but males are typically born with much larger skeletal structures.
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Youre forgetting 1 thing. The lunatics ignore the fact she went through a male puberty and deny she has any advantages because her testosterone is down now. Its insanity and a sad state for society as a whole that it could even be considered acceptable, let alone the fact she has played womens games at all. Farcical
 

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burge13 said:
Youre forgetting 1 thing. The lunatics ignore the fact she went through a male puberty and deny she has any advantages because her testosterone is down now. Its insanity and a sad state for society as a whole that it could even be considered acceptable, let alone the fact she has played womens games at all. Farcical
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I certainly wouldn't want my daughter playing against her.
 
burge13 said:
Youre forgetting 1 thing. The lunatics ignore the fact she went through a male puberty and deny she has any advantages because her testosterone is down now. Its insanity and a sad state for society as a whole that it could even be considered acceptable, let alone the fact she has played womens games at all. Farcical
Click to expand...

Why did you dislike my earlier comment that there were only two sexes?
 
Lip Gallagher said:
Lots of people are unable to play sport for a vast variety of reasons, unfortuantly being transgender should be one of them, unless they choose to play (in this case) in a mens comp. (IMO)
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I think this this and the sentiment of it is overlooked and lost in all the hyperbole and hysteria regarding this topic.

In life, we make choices that have outcomes and consequences. Some of us also face challenges and barriers that aren't there for others. Whether or not you agree that transgender people are or aren't 'making a choice', they are still choosing (sometimes demanding) to want to play women's sport when their biology gives them multiple and significant advantages.

I for one am too tall/long to comfortably fit in 'normal' seating on planes and buses and have to make other arrangements. Am I being discriminated against? I get this is a reductive example and I am not a marginalised person generally, but I accept the reality and deal with it accordingly.

My friend is a semi-professional racing driver that can comfortably and safely control a motor vehicle at far higher speeds than the max 110 kmph allowed in Victoria, as I'm sure a lot of people can. Why are they made to drive slower because a select few cannot do the right thing or are not skilled enough drivers? We all accept it because it's the law and behave accordingly.

How many times have we all been told that "life isn't fair"? I mean, it isn't. I don't think it's logical or reasonable to have situations where 'the rights' and needs of very few, are disproportionately considered above those of others who are in the majority and will be vastly and negatively affected by what those 'rights' and needs would bear out. Biological men playing sport against women would be one of these situations, end of story.

Personally, I am more than happy to refer to trans-women by the pronouns they prefer and accept them fully for who they are, that's just basic decency and one I hope more and more people begin to practice generally. They need to accept that in a sporting context, they simply have too many advantages to compete as women fairly and need to acknowledge that. It isn't a knock on them being accepted as 'true women', it's just a reality. It cannot be one way traffic with people just demanding what they want and how they want things to go all the time, or we will see the divisiveness that we've seen in this thread and in society generally continue IMO.

I have no confidence a reasonable outcome will be met or any of the above becoming reality going forward because of the way society is going, but feel strongly enough to put effort some effort in discussing it.
 
TheKITC said:
I think this this and the sentiment of it is overlooked and lost in all the hyperbole and hysteria regarding this topic.

In life, we make choices that have outcomes and consequences. Some of us also face challenges and barriers that aren't there for others. Whether or not you agree that transgender people are or aren't 'making a choice', they are still choosing (sometimes demanding) to want to play women's sport when their biology gives them multiple and significant advantages.

I for one am too tall/long to comfortably fit in 'normal' seating on planes and buses and have to make other arrangements. Am I being discriminated against? I get this is a reductive example and I am not a marginalised person generally, but I accept the reality and deal with it accordingly.

My friend is a semi-professional racing driver that can comfortably and safely control a motor vehicle at far higher speeds than the max 110 kmph allowed in Victoria, as I'm sure a lot of people can. Why are they made to drive slower because a select few cannot do the right thing or are not skilled enough drivers? We all accept it because it's the law and behave accordingly.

How many times have we all been told that "life isn't fair"? I mean, it isn't. I don't think it's logical or reasonable to have situations where 'the rights' and needs of very few, are disproportionately considered above those of others who are in the majority and will be vastly and negatively affected by what those 'rights' and needs would bear out. Biological men playing sport against women would be one of these situations, end of story.

Personally, I am more than happy to refer to trans-women by the pronouns they prefer and accept them fully for who they are, that's just basic decency and one I hope more and more people begin to practice generally. They need to accept that in a sporting context, they simply have too many advantages to compete as women fairly and need to acknowledge that. It isn't a knock on them being accepted as 'true women', it's just a reality. It cannot be one way traffic with people just demanding what they want and how they want things to go all the time, or we will see the divisiveness that we've seen in this thread and in society generally continue IMO.

I have no confidence a reasonable outcome will be met or any of the above becoming reality going forward because of the way society is going, but feel strongly enough to put effort some effort in discussing it.
Click to expand...
Best post in the thread. 👍
 
TheKITC said:
I think this this and the sentiment of it is overlooked and lost in all the hyperbole and hysteria regarding this topic.

In life, we make choices that have outcomes and consequences. Some of us also face challenges and barriers that aren't there for others. Whether or not you agree that transgender people are or aren't 'making a choice', they are still choosing (sometimes demanding) to want to play women's sport when their biology gives them multiple and significant advantages.

I for one am too tall/long to comfortably fit in 'normal' seating on planes and buses and have to make other arrangements. Am I being discriminated against? I get this is a reductive example and I am not a marginalised person generally, but I accept the reality and deal with it accordingly.

My friend is a semi-professional racing driver that can comfortably and safely control a motor vehicle at far higher speeds than the max 110 kmph allowed in Victoria, as I'm sure a lot of people can. Why are they made to drive slower because a select few cannot do the right thing or are not skilled enough drivers? We all accept it because it's the law and behave accordingly.

How many times have we all been told that "life isn't fair"? I mean, it isn't. I don't think it's logical or reasonable to have situations where 'the rights' and needs of very few, are disproportionately considered above those of others who are in the majority and will be vastly and negatively affected by what those 'rights' and needs would bear out. Biological men playing sport against women would be one of these situations, end of story.

Personally, I am more than happy to refer to trans-women by the pronouns they prefer and accept them fully for who they are, that's just basic decency and one I hope more and more people begin to practice generally. They need to accept that in a sporting context, they simply have too many advantages to compete as women fairly and need to acknowledge that. It isn't a knock on them being accepted as 'true women', it's just a reality. It cannot be one way traffic with people just demanding what they want and how they want things to go all the time, or we will see the divisiveness that we've seen in this thread and in society generally continue IMO.

I have no confidence a reasonable outcome will be met or any of the above becoming reality going forward because of the way society is going, but feel strongly enough to put effort some effort in discussing it.
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This is why Hannah's comment about the AFL not having to give a reason is unlikely to carry much weight because every year players are knocked back for numerous reasons or without reason.
 
Ron The Bear said:
Actually at this stage she is only aiming to play in the ACT women's comp. She has played there previously but the AFL recently changed its policy to align with the Victorian Equal Opportunity Act, which permits trans athletes to be barred on the grounds of strength, stamina or physique.

There is obviously more here than meets the eye for the AFL to have altered its policy, ostensibly in a bid to thwart Mouncey (which they would no doubt deny).
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What she is complaining about is she is allowed to play in any grassroots comp without the stringent testing but not the elite competition. She is also complaining that the AFL says in their policy that they will use 2 years of data from testing the elite girls in the same tests that trans athletes do to set arbitrary levels for the trans player to meet. The AFL are not being transparent in releasing this data so trans players don't have a clue of how big or how fast or how strong is too much. Also Hanna has no legal grounds to take the AFL to court unless they first seek a legal temporary exemption to exclude her. Hannah then could challenge the exclusion. The AFL have to then justify with data how and why they excluded her.

What does the law say in Australia in regards to trans & gender diverse athletes?

 

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kirsti said:
The AFLW policy is a case by case assessment way above and beyond any other trans sports policy in the assessment requirements to be met by the trans player.
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Thanks for posting that, quite interesting reading....I think the nub of the issue the AFL are dealing with is the balance between being fair to the trans community, as well as respecting the regular AFLW players.....One issue I reckon they’re worried about is losing the momentum of women’s footy by girls not wanting to play AFL because in our sport they might be playing against born males, whereas others simply won’t allow trans athletes to compete against non trans athletes.
 
Mouncey claims discrimination as not allowed to play AFLW.

Okay very simple question, is there a club that was 100% willing and committed to draft Mouncey?

If not, it's not discrimination, maybe just like Moana Hope just a s**t footballer.

Can't fully remember, maybe someone can fill me in on a club that was committed and just not allowed .....
 
kirsti if as you say Mouncey could qualify to play at lower levels where you'd safely assume not only the level of competition would be lower but also the ferocity and athleticism, then it makes no sense she cannot play at a higher level.

I think a lot of posters have alluded do that the AFL tend to look after the optics, it appears to me that the optics that they don't want a trans player in the women's game, in this case only AFLW. And if you go by this thread certainly that's what people want.

Doesn't mean it's not discrimination and she could probably take it all the way to the Supreme Court if need be.
 
burge13 said:
Youre forgetting 1 thing. The lunatics ignore the fact she went through a male puberty and deny she has any advantages because her testosterone is down now. Its insanity and a sad state for society as a whole that it could even be considered acceptable, let alone the fact she has played womens games at all. Farcical
Click to expand...
Pretty sure 'Kirsty' went through puberty as a male as well, iirc he was a very good competitive swimmer before he made the change.
 
Marmozet said:
Men and women's sports are separated for a reason.

Mouncey will end women's careers left, right and centre if she plays AFLW. It borders on being an OH&S Hazard.
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Cool. I guess we gotta raise the draft age and introduce a minimum weight requirement to the AFL because it's an ohs risk having an 18 year old 175cm stick figure in his first year of footy playing against fully developed man mountains like Dixon, Lynch and Sandilands, who could very legitimately be almost twice the weight.
 
theyellowsash said:
Cool. I guess we gotta raise the draft age and introduce a minimum weight requirement to the AFL because it's an ohs risk having an 18 year old 175cm stick figure in his first year of footy playing against fully developed man mountains like Dixon, Lynch and Sandilands, who could very legitimately be almost twice the weight.
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Can I ask why is it that you seem to cherry pick some of the 'softer' arguments and posts in this thread to respond to, but haven't been willing to discuss some of the lengthier, more fleshed out ones that have been made with regards to the raft of benefits that biological men have over biological females, or any of the other points made in depth?
 
Lip Gallagher said:
Pretty sure 'Kirsty' went through puberty as a male as well, iirc he was a very good competitive swimmer before he made the change.
Click to expand...

Are you being a flog deliberately or what?
Why the quotation marks around the name and why are you using masculine pronouns for someone that is now female?

You can have an opinion on the current debate without the need to be an ignoramus
 
kirsti said:
What she is complaining about is she is allowed to play in any grassroots comp without the stringent testing but not the elite competition. She is also complaining that the AFL says in their policy that they will use 2 years of data from testing the elite girls in the same tests that trans athletes do to set arbitrary levels for the trans player to meet. The AFL are not being transparent in releasing this data so trans players don't have a clue of how big or how fast or how strong is too much. Also Hanna has no legal grounds to take the AFL to court unless they first seek a legal temporary exemption to exclude her. Hannah then could challenge the exclusion. The AFL have to then justify with data how and why they excluded her.

What does the law say in Australia in regards to trans & gender diverse athletes?

Click to expand...


Several posters in this thread have echoed that distinction, and shown reservations in the cases of elite and junior level sport while being comfortable in the case of "grassroots" adult competition.

This troubles me.

Having been involved in multiple sports as a player and administrator over a rather long time, I have seen that there is a substantial proportion of female sport participants who will not play in social mixed sports leagues, even in low contact or no contact sports. Not just because of the physical disadvantage. In the mixed social format my observation is that some men automatically ratchet back their intensity and aggression, some do not and behave in a manner not unlike bullying. High intensity and aggression in sport are largely learned behaviors, and testosterone is like rocket fuel for such learning.

It is not a large leap to see a similar issue emerging in a more competitive league, even at the grassroots with trans female athletes who retain some physical traits (and learned aggression levels). It can be very difficult for adults to maintain participation in sports, and more difficult for females. I struggle to jump on board a paradigm which facilitates participation for some while discouraging participation for others.

You're thoughts from experience closer to the issue would be interesting.
 
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