Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Chief]

Not many I would assume. The ABC article says there are 10 trans woman out of 520,000 competing in NCAA schools.

Sounds worth the time of the "leader of the free world".

 

[faible]

Sounds worth the time of the "leader of the free world".

Wasn't something like 40% of their campaign coverage about trans people?

I'd have assumed they were a much larger cohort to be generating such a level of coverage.

Unless, of course, it's not actually about anything trans people are doing, but instead about punching down at a vulnerable powerless minority in order to make his voters feel good.

 

[kranky al]

Gotta be honest, guys who transition way after puberty shouldn’t be in women’s sport at Olympic level if they are substantially bigger than their opponents.

Wasn't something like 40% of their campaign coverage about trans people?

I'd have assumed they were a much larger cohort to be generating such a level of coverage.

Unless, of course, it's not actually about anything trans people are doing, but instead about punching down at a vulnerable powerless minority in order to make his voters feel hate

Ftfy

 

[liz]

Gotta be honest, guys who transition way after puberty shouldn’t be in women’s sport at Olympic level if they are substantially bigger than their opponents.

And how many are, or have been, or ever will be?

 

[kranky al]

And how many are, or have been, or ever will be?

A Historic Week For Transgender Athletes At the Tokyo Olympics

WASHINGTON, D.C. — This past week saw historic transgender participation in the Tokyo Olympics as three transgender and non-binary athletes competed in…

www.hrc.org

There’s the Tokyo olympics.

Note that men who transition to women are represented. Women who transition to men. Not so much.

To me it’s a stupid hill to die on that causes far more angst and outright hatred of trans folk and gives conservatives something to rail against.

 

[big_e]

A Historic Week For Transgender Athletes At the Tokyo Olympics

WASHINGTON, D.C. — This past week saw historic transgender participation in the Tokyo Olympics as three transgender and non-binary athletes competed in…

www.hrc.org

There’s the Tokyo olympics.

Note that men who transition to women are represented. Women who transition to men. Not so much.

To me it’s a stupid hill to die on that causes far more angst and outright hatred of trans folk and gives conservatives something to rail against.

View attachment 2220445

The Canadian soccer player and the skateboarder were both assigned female at birth, so no change to eligibility there.

The Kiwi weightlifter did lift as a kid but then gave it up for 11 years before transitioning.

And the BMX rider didn't even make the team.

Not sure why you've shown a suburban footballer in a post about the Olympics.

 

[kranky al]

The Canadian soccer player and the skateboarder were both assigned female at birth, so no change to eligibility there.

The Kiwi weightlifter did lift as a kid but then gave it up for 11 years before transitioning.

And the BMX rider didn't even make the team.

Not sure why you've shown a suburban footballer in a post about the Olympics.

Because that’s the image and others like it that conservatives will use that immediately poisons the well.

I feel that rather than bashing your head against a brick wall and alienating people who could otherwise be won to your side - concentrate on trans acceptance generally rather than prioritising the smallest minority in a losing proposition.

Trans women in sport is the biggest anchor and an easy win being handed to conservatives. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.

 

[Gralin]

Because that’s the image and others like it that conservatives will use that immediately poisons the well.

I feel that rather than bashing your head against a brick wall and alienating people who could otherwise be won to your side - concentrate on trans acceptance generally rather than prioritising the smallest minority in a losing proposition.

Trans women in sport is the biggest anchor and an easy win being handed to conservatives. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.

Which is basically saying allow some discrimination in the hope they'll stop there

We know they wont stop there so why give up ground willingly in the hope of a compromise not on offer?

 

[faible]

Which is basically saying allow some discrimination in the hope they'll stop there

We know they wont stop there so why give up ground willingly in the hope of a compromise not on offer?

It's already been lost. That's his point. It was an easy W for the GOP, and they took it.

Now not only can trans people not play sport, they're completely ****ed over in a hell of a lot more areas of life.

 

[liz]

Because that’s the image and others like it that conservatives will use that immediately poisons the well.

I feel that rather than bashing your head against a brick wall and alienating people who could otherwise be won to your side - concentrate on trans acceptance generally rather than prioritising the smallest minority in a losing proposition.

Trans women in sport is the biggest anchor and an easy win being handed to conservatives. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.

If we allow politicians with no relevant expertise to over-ride the decisions of sports administrators (with access to relevant research and experts) just because, what next? Will we allow politicians to think they know best on women’s healthcare? Better than their doctors? Oh wait…

 

[Gralin]

It's already been lost. That's his point. It was an easy W for the GOP, and they took it.

Now not only can trans people not play sport, they're completely ****ed over in a hell of a lot more areas of life.

No that's my point
It was never about sport so giving the conservatives sport doesn't save anything else it just gets them their first in without a fight

 

[big_e]

Because that’s the image and others like it that conservatives will use that immediately poisons the well.

I feel that rather than bashing your head against a brick wall and alienating people who could otherwise be won to your side - concentrate on trans acceptance generally rather than prioritising the smallest minority in a losing proposition.

Trans women in sport is the biggest anchor and an easy win being handed to conservatives. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.

It's the right that's pushing it - they know it riles up their base. If decent people back down on this, they'll just move on to another target. And then decent people will again be told to back down because perfect is the enemy of good. So the right will move on to another target, and another target and another target.

 

[kranky al]

It's the right that's pushing it - they know it riles up their base. If decent people back down on this, they'll just move on to another target. And then decent people will again be told to back down because perfect is the enemy of good. So the right will move on to another target, and another target and another target.

Thing is it’s an easy win for them.

Play some vision of someone like Hannah Mouncey flattening women half her size….. that’s clearly not fair.

At the end of the day Michael Jordan / shaq / Nic natanui could transition to being female after puberty and they are going to dominate female sport because they gained something from puberty xx females didn’t.

The average height in the nba is 2 metres

The average height in the wnba is 185cm


You have to pick your battles or lose the war.

 

[Roobs321]

realistically transwomen who transitioned post-puberty have been quietly self-excluding themselves from competitive sport for many years because it’s a common sense sacrifice you can afford to make and not worth the potential hassle, not to mention the moral dilemma of being previously athletic weighing on their conscience. They self-ban regardless. You might hear of the handful that give it a go (and in doing so force sporting bodies to review their policies and investigate the science case-by-case with their particular sport), but not the many thousands who just opt out (not their chosen battle) and choose different forms of non-controversial fitness. The notion that an MJ/Shaq/NN-level star would transition midcareer and pick it up in the women's league just isn't a plausible line of thought, it's hypothetical more than sensible. It's not an issue transwomen seriously focus upon or agitate about, I'd compare it to fighting a battle deep behind enemy lines.

 

[big_e]

Thing is it’s an easy win for them.

Play some vision of someone like Hannah Mouncey flattening women half her size….. that’s clearly not fair.

At the end of the day Michael Jordan / shaq / Nic natanui could transition to being female after puberty and they are going to dominate female sport because they gained something from puberty xx females didn’t.

And yet they don't.

Everyone lost their shit a couple of years ago because a cricketer was picked to play for Canada - and she was not great. Beat up on Brazil but even against the likes of the USA, she struggled.

You quoted the Tokyo Olympics, but there was only one woman out of 5,500 who had transitioned, and she did poorly.

The kerfuffle in boxing in 2024 was because there were a couple of women who had "masculine" facial features. They were women, they were born women, they'd always been women, but it made some people feel a bit icky, so there was a huge pile-on.

There are so many ifs and maybes in discussions about transfolk and most of them are completely ridiculous. I remember one where a woman said on Twitter, "what if I come out of the cubicle in the ladies and see someone washing their penis in the sink?" Just ludicrous.

I honestly think there's an undercurrent in this debate where some think that people will transition BECAUSE it will allow them to play sport at a higher level. "I'm a handy hockey player/swimmer/whatever but jeez, I'd dominate against the women. That gives me an idea!"

And it's nonsense. Total BS.

 

[kranky al]

And yet they don't.

Everyone lost their shit a couple of years ago because a cricketer was picked to play for Canada - and she was not great. Beat up on Brazil but even against the likes of the USA, she struggled.

You quoted the Tokyo Olympics, but there was only one woman out of 5,500 who had transitioned, and she did poorly.

The kerfuffle in boxing in 2024 was because there were a couple of women who had "masculine" facial features. They were women, they were born women, they'd always been women, but it made some people feel a bit icky, so there was a huge pile-on.

There are so many ifs and maybes in discussions about transfolk and most of them are completely ridiculous. I remember one where a woman said on Twitter, "what if I come out of the cubicle in the ladies and see someone washing their penis in the sink?" Just ludicrous.

I honestly think there's an undercurrent in this debate where some think that people will transition BECAUSE it will allow them to play sport at a higher level. "I'm a handy hockey player/swimmer/whatever but jeez, I'd dominate against the women. That gives me an idea!"

And it's nonsense. Total BS.

Of course it is.

But again it’s an easy win for them. You are fighting a battle that’s already been lost and just does more and more damage.

You don’t fight the enemy where they are strong. You fight them where they are weak.

 

[Gralin]

Of course it is.

But again it’s an easy win for them. You are fighting a battle that’s already been lost and just does more and more damage.

You don’t fight the enemy where they are strong. You fight them where they are weak.

funny how the other side doesn't worry about this

they don't care how many times they lose the battle, they keep going back to it until they win it

 

[Gralin]

like they had already lost on abortion

didn't stop them

they spent 50 years working on getting that back

with people like that you cannot give them anything for free ever

 

[Gralin]

because all they will do is keep looking for the fight you're willing to give up

then they will find the next one you are willing to give up

until they have enough to not care whether you want to give it up or not, they're taking it either way

 

[Gough]

like they had already lost on abortion

didn't stop them

they spent 50 years working on getting that back

with people like that you cannot give them anything for free ever

Marriage equality is firmly in Trump's crosshairs.

 

[Gralin]

Marriage equality is firmly in Trump's crosshairs.

oh there have been member of GOP talking about bringing back racial segregation

banning all contraceptives

outlawing being gay

removing womens rights to vote or work or own property

like I said, they will never stop trying to get more so why make it easy for them to get any

 

[Gough]

oh there have been member of GOP talking about bringing back racial segregation

banning all contraceptives

outlawing being gay

removing womens rights to vote or work or own property

like I said, they will never stop trying to get more so why make it easy for them to get any

Perhaps one unintended consequences of that stupid plebiscite is it will make any future action on winding back marriage equality here significantly more difficult. I wonder if our Tone considered that at the time.

 

[Gralin]

Perhaps one unintended consequences of that stupid plebiscite is it will make any future action on winding back marriage equality here significantly more difficult. I wonder if our Tone considered that at the time.

I don't see it as any sort of a barrier directly

the no vote was 38% at the time

I would not be surprised if it wasn't higher today if it was held again and I think that there are definitely factions within both the ALP and the coalition that would love to remove it

 

[kranky al]

funny how the other side doesn't worry about this

they don't care how many times they lose the battle, they keep going back to it until they win it

Because we hand them easy wins….. by wasting effort on stuff that in the scheme of things are unimportant.

 

[Gralin]

Because we hand them easy wins….. by wasting effort on stuff that in the scheme of things are unimportant.

no you're completely missing the point

because all they will do is keep looking for the fight you're willing to give up

then they will find the next one you are willing to give up

until they have enough to not care whether you want to give it up or not, they're taking it either way

I'll say it again

every single time you give ground to them they will keep coming

they will keep looking for the next fight you are willing to give ground on

until they have enough of it to stop looking for what you call easy wins

this current easy win has been a decade long push btw

we've had 10 solid years of them pushing this

like I said they don't stop when they don't win