Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[ParapMarkets]

How is Gralin worse than these people?

Well I wouldn’t call him worse than an actual neo-nazi, but given the farcical theatre of police and their clear history ensuring “Nazi’s” can get front and centre at events I am highly doubtful of much actual Nazi presence at all.

I believe most people he is opposing are not as extreme as he is. Many just have some concerns that they would like heard, a common concern is about the potential for public toilet sharing to be exploited by men with bad intentions. I believe women have the right to voice such a concern without police marching in “Nazi’s” which ends up being the sole focus of attention.

 

[Gralin]

Police marching in nazis.......

 

[Gralin]

This is rather terrible news and will make it even harder for kids to get proper care, especially regionally.

Medical insurer drops cover for doctors who initiate hormone treatments in adolescents with gender dysphoria

One of Australia's leading medical insurers dumps cover for private practising doctors who initiate hormone treatment in adolescents with gender dysphoria, a decision that may put even more pressure on public hospital waiting lists.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Gralin]

Well I wouldn’t call him worse than an actual neo-nazi, but given the farcical theatre of police and their clear history ensuring “Nazi’s” can get front and centre at events I am highly doubtful of much actual Nazi presence at all.

Conspiracy theories and false flags..

I believe most people he is opposing are not as extreme as he is. Many just have some concerns that they would like heard, a common concern is about the potential for public toilet sharing to be exploited by men with bad intentions.

Men with bad intentions already enter women's spaces.
Removing trans women doesn't make anyone safer.
It does make cis women who don't look "feminine" enough targets for the toilet police though.

I believe women have the right to voice such a concern without police marching in “Nazi’s” which ends up being the sole focus of attention.

The fact you're running with a police conspiracy to silence women's concerns involving nazis is just top shelf.

Real quality work.

 

[faible]

I believe most people he is opposing are not as extreme as he is. Many just have some concerns that they would like heard

I think this is a fair comment in general, often it’s assumed that because someone raises a specific concern, whether it be something they’ve heard mentioned in the media or thought of themselves, that they’re immediately labelled an extreme enemy.

Ignorance of an issue doesn’t mean someone needs to be shouted down or called a TERF.

 

[faible]

Men with bad intentions already enter women's spaces.
Removing trans women doesn't make anyone safer.
It does make cis women who don't look "feminine" enough targets for the toilet police though.

This is a perfectly reasonable reply to that comment might I point out. All done without labelling anyone or positioning them as an extreme anti-trans activist!

 

[Gralin]

I think this is a fair comment in general, often it’s assumed that because someone raises a specific concern, whether it be something they’ve heard mentioned in the media or thought of themselves, that they’re immediately labelled an extreme enemy.

Ignorance of an issue doesn’t mean someone needs to be shouted down or called a TERF.

And saying someone is using terf talking points is just that.

The media spend more time platforming antitrans voices than trans voices and a lot of people now default to using antitrans language as the starting point for talking about the issues.

Apparently pointing that out upsets people.

It is interesting though how solidarity with a minority group that is being attacked is such an extreme position in our current climate.

Apparently as bad as the people that want to make their existence illegal for some reason.

 

[Gralin]

This is a perfectly reasonable reply to that comment might I point out. All done without labelling anyone or positioning them as an extreme anti-trans activist!

A perfectly reasonable argument that has been repeated many times in this thread because all they come back to is the idea that allowing trans women to continue using public toilets like they have for literally as long as public toilets exist will now somehow lead to women being assaulted more frequently.

Be nice if I don't know maybe people started calling that shit out more

 

[faible]

A perfectly reasonable argument that has been repeated many times in this thread because all they come back to is the idea that allowing trans women to continue using public toilets like they have for literally as long as public toilets exist will now somehow lead to women being assaulted more frequently.

Be nice if I don't know maybe people started calling that s**t out more

You don’t think it comes up repeatedly from different posters because the mainstream media loves to use it as an argument against allowing trans people (and let’s be honest, it’s only ever trans women) in to the bathroom of the gender they associate with?

Not everyone is an expert, or has a long running interest in a topic. Many people only come to it because of it being a topical issue in the moment because they’ve seen things in the media.

That doesn’t mean they’re inherently bad people, it might simply mean they’re uneducated. Sure, some people come in with bad intentions with the same old argument, but lumping them all in together is unfair.

When you came AT them the way you do, they learn nothing except that they’ll be labelled and shouted at by some random bloke. Good way to educate right there.

Meanwhile kirsti has done an absolute power of work actually educating people who are interested.

 

[tandino]

It's been a good read, for what it's worth.

 

[Gralin]

You don’t think it comes up repeatedly from different posters because the mainstream media loves to use it as an argument against allowing trans people (and let’s be honest, it’s only ever trans women) in to the bathroom of the gender they associate with?

Not everyone is an expert, or has a long running interest in a topic. Many people only come to it because of it being a topical issue in the moment because they’ve seen things in the media.

That doesn’t mean they’re inherently bad people, it might simply mean they’re uneducated. Sure, some people come in with bad intentions with the same old argument, but lumping them all in together is unfair.

When you came AT them the way you do, they learn nothing except that they’ll be labelled and shouted at by some random bloke. Good way to educate right there.

Meanwhile kirsti has done an absolute power of work actually educating people who are interested.

Yes the problem is always me and never them I'm well aware of your view

 

[faible]

Yes the problem is always me and never them I'm well aware of your view

Except that’s not what I wrote.

 

[Gralin]

Except that’s not what I wrote.

No you didn't and it was unfair for me to go that far.

 

[ParapMarkets]

I think this is a fair comment in general, often it’s assumed that because someone raises a specific concern, whether it be something they’ve heard mentioned in the media or thought of themselves, that they’re immediately labelled an extreme enemy.

Ignorance of an issue doesn’t mean someone needs to be shouted down or called a TERF.

Yeah look, I get that there are some truly crap people out there and we shouldn’t tolerate discrimination, but I just feel all this movement is going to do is create pushback and have a net negative result. Maybe I am a pessimist, but I don’t think there are good intentions with this movement with the big corporations and big money pushing it (and that’s to say that there aren’t legitimate concerns from the trans community and people legitimately trying to improve society).

 

[Chief]

Well I wouldn’t call him worse than an actual neo-nazi, but given the farcical theatre of police and their clear history ensuring “Nazi’s” can get front and centre at events I am highly doubtful of much actual Nazi presence at all.

I believe most people he is opposing are not as extreme as he is. Many just have some concerns that they would like heard, a common concern is about the potential for public toilet sharing to be exploited by men with bad intentions. I believe women have the right to voice such a concern without police marching in “Nazi’s” which ends up being the sole focus of attention.

Another conspiracy you've latched onto.

Best that you exit these threads and go back to the sports sections before you do yourself a mischief.

 

[gouki88]

Well I wouldn’t call him worse than an actual neo-nazi, but given the farcical theatre of police and their clear history ensuring “Nazi’s” can get front and centre at events I am highly doubtful of much actual Nazi presence at all.

I believe most people he is opposing are not as extreme as he is. Many just have some concerns that they would like heard, a common concern is about the potential for public toilet sharing to be exploited by men with bad intentions. I believe women have the right to voice such a concern without police marching in “Nazi’s” which ends up being the sole focus of attention.

You realise it's straight, cis men who assault women in public bathrooms, right? Or that trans people are actually the target of violence in these spaces?

Another made up scenario to get angry at

 

[Crankyhawk]

And this is the ENTIRE problem with anti-trans people such as yourself. Inability to accept reality.

It’s interesting that the view is trans people are trans because they self identify (which is based on their own beliefs) - parallels can be drawn with sexual identity as well - I wonder how much of this type of “what I feel is more important than what is objective” drives disinformation/ counter truth groups (eg MAGA)

Particularly as for example MAGA are anti trans, but both groups have this “beliefs over external objective reality” view

 

[Crankyhawk]

This is rather terrible news and will make it even harder for kids to get proper care, especially regionally.

Medical insurer drops cover for doctors who initiate hormone treatments in adolescents with gender dysphoria

One of Australia's leading medical insurers dumps cover for private practising doctors who initiate hormone treatment in adolescents with gender dysphoria, a decision that may put even more pressure on public hospital waiting lists.

www.abc.net.au

Not sure that there would have been many Practioners in the regional areas doing this privately though.

 

[Gough]

It’s interesting that the view is trans people are trans because they self identify (which is based on their own beliefs) - parallels can be drawn with sexual identity as well - I wonder how much of this type of “what I feel is more important than what is objective” drives disinformation/ counter truth groups (eg MAGA)

Particularly as for example MAGA are anti trans, but both groups have this “beliefs over external objective reality” view

Objective reality for trans people is their existence.

 

[Chief]

“beliefs over external objective reality” view

Or simply external characteristics.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Objective reality for trans people is their existence.

Yes and similar for LGBTI+ as well.
Both are based on self identification correct?

How can we then break down the MAGA side who self identify that their beliefs are more valid than reality (under the same self identification principle) do we logically need to not challenge them every time they spin an objective lie (some of these MAGA loons do appear to hold their beliefs as intensely as a sexual identity..)

 

[Gough]

Yes and similar for LGBTI+ as well.
Both are based on self identification correct?

How can we then break down the MAGA side who self identify that their beliefs are more valid than reality (under the same self identification principle) do we logically need to not challenge them every time they spin an objective lie (some of these MAGA loons do appear to hold their beliefs as intensely as a sexual identity..)

People don't believe they're gay or trans, they are gay or trans. You're analogy is way, way off.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Or simply external characteristics.

Yeah, external characteristics (what others can see) is a better way of trying to put it; the argument is more if we are accepting that people’s belief is more important than external characteristics how do we challenge those MAGA type beliefs where they would say their belief is more important than what we the non MAGA can observe

 

[Crankyhawk]

People don't believe they're gay or trans, they are gay or trans. Your analogy is way, way off.

Does it not still mean it is a self identified characteristic? Which the external observer should not challenge.

The MAGA sheep seem to hold their internal characteristics (a fundamental being reality denial) just as intensely, I’m trying to find a logic where I can say “trans/ gay people are because they say they are” yet still be able to dump on the MAGA types as the ignorant ones

 

[Chief]

Seeing as it's more than just belief, it's not difficult to accept.

I mean, the physical process of developing into male or female in the womb is pretty well documented. It's not hard to see where that process could go awry and a female is born with male physical characteristics and vice versa.

Why are we able to accept all sorts of physiological quirks (for want of a better phrase, I'm no medical guy) except this one?