Transgender

[Gralin]

Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

If you go out to deliberately make life unpleasant for anyone you're an arseh*le. That's what you guys are supporting here. Even if you regard transgender people as mentally ill, which I don't, why would you want to take a mental illness, mock it, and then make life more difficult for them? Would you do that for people with clinical depression, or anorexia?

Gough clearly having a bad time in this debate and having to resort to the tactic of "you are bad people if you disagree with me".

If a person is born biologically male but identifies as female and has not had a surgery to alter their genitals. Are they an arseh*le for wanting to change in a female changeroom if that makes multiple women in that room uncomfortable?

Are you an arseh*le for not respecting someone choosing to identify as a race that is not in their ancestry even though it does not affect you?

 

[igon value]

Homosexuality was on the DSM until the 70s too and we're still in that era when it comes to accepting trans people. As I said earlier all these arguments were thrown at gay people too, all we're doing is pointlessly revisiting history, and causing unnecessary grief to a group of people that don't deserve it.

Homosexuality wasn't classified by the DSM - it existed as concept long before the DSM was written.

Gender dysphoria is an invention of the DSM.

 

[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

Homosexuality was on the DSM until the 70s too and we're still in that era when it comes to accepting trans people. As I said earlier all these arguments were thrown at gay people too, all we're doing is pointlessly revisiting history, and causing unnecessary grief to a group of people that don't deserve it.

Now we are entering strawman territory..

 

[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

So Gough. Are you going to answer whether you believe race is a social construct?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

To quote the DNC advisor "Your gender is determined by your gender identity. Period."

Do the people who agree with that statement also believe that "Your race is determined by your racial identity. Period."?

If not why not?

I would put it to some people that have contradictory views on these two scenarios that their support of one and not the other is not really grounded in a logical or scientific basis. It is grounded in the fact that at this time other people are pushing for acceptance of one but not the other(we may end up there eventually though). People who agree with one of those quotes but not the other are an epitomization of "feels over reals".

The issue with race is the legacy of history

Most publicised (underline that word) cases reek of patronizing play acting (ie a person raised in a predominately white community and culture acting out what they preceive as the stereotype they want to follow). This isnt just a white thing either. When i was growing up there was this big thing with sri lankan teens acting like they were homies from the ghetto (even though they were sri lankans from clayton).

Often this isnt adopting the genuine culture, but a characterture of it.

 

[igon value]

The issue with race is the legacy of history

Most publicised (underline that word) cases reek of patronizing play acting (ie a person raised in a predominately white community and culture acting out what they preceive as the stereotype they want to follow). This isnt just a white thing either. When i was growing up there was this big thing with sri lankan teens acting like they were homies from the ghetto (even though they were sri lankans from clayton).

Often this isnt adopting the genuine culture, but a characterture of it.

There isn't a history of brutal oppression towards women?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

There isn't a history of brutal oppression towards women?

We didnt have industrialised slavery of nearly all women in the usa and much of europe.

They were treated like shit, but no where near as badly

 

[igon value]

We didnt have industrialised slavery of nearly all women in the usa and much of europe.

They were treated like shit, but no where near as badly

So there is a degree of oppression a class of people must go through before their identity is off limits? How do we quantify that?

Women have been chattel in human culture for as long as we have records, and in many cultures it was a miserable existence (and still is in some parts of the world). Up until very recently no one would have willingly chosen to be a woman.

In fact historically most gender switching was women pretending to be men in order to gain access to male power (eg Joan of Arc, George Eliot, etc) - but never did these women claim to feel male.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

So there is a degree of oppression a class of people must go through before their identity is off limits? How do we quantify that?

Women have been chattel in human culture for as long as we have records, and in many cultures it was a miserable existence (and still is in some parts of the world). Up until very recently no one would have willingly chosen to be a woman.

In fact historically most gender switching was women pretending to be men in order to gain access to male power (eg Joan of Arc, George Eliot, etc) - but never did these women claim to feel male.

Well lets just say when you sleep in chains life aint good, hows that?

 

[igon value]

Well lets just say when you sleep in chains life aint good, hows that?

Do you think before we came around to the view that domestic violence was bad and that husbands can't legally rape their wife that a lot of women in history might have suffered through a silent tyranny?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Do you think before we came around to the view that domestic violence was bad and that husbands can't legally rape their wife that a lot of women in history might have suffered through a silent tyranny?

Not as bad as enslavement of an entire population.

Ffs are you seriously trying to put slavery on the same level???

 

[igon value]

Not as bad as enslavement of an entire population.

Ffs are you seriously trying to put slavery on the same level???

Yes.

Slavery was an institution that lasted 200 years. The subjection of women is an eternal threat - what do you think happened to the women of Nanking, or the women in Germany as the Red Army invaded? Who do you think suffered worse in slavery - the black men who worked to death and were beaten, or the black women who were worked to death and were beaten and were r*ped?

In that context, for someone who is born male to say they 'feel like a woman' is no different to a white person saying they feel black.

 

[igon value]

Furthermore, the slave trade hasn't ended. It still exists, and those who are predominantly enslaved in the modern era are women, sold into sex slavery.

 

[BEaston]

If ideas outside your mental model of the world make you feel like you are getting dumber then I would suggest you aren't very smart to begin with.

Hahaha yeah some ground breaking ideas being put forward for sure.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Homosexuality was on the DSM until the 70s too and we're still in that era when it comes to accepting trans people. As I said earlier all these arguments were thrown at gay people too, all we're doing is pointlessly revisiting history, and causing unnecessary grief to a group of people that don't deserve it.

is the woman identifying as black mentally ill?

is she a fraud?

how do you view that example?

 

[deltablues]

The thread title is "transgender". That is a clinical medical psychological condition. But transgenderism has been hijacked by the hard Left as part of identity politics. It now falls under the labels of oppression and victims - seeking to gain the feel-good moral high ground against which all counter-argument is thereby futile.

And thus some posters here, living in the progressive zeitgeist, have automatically segued from transgender to feminism/slavery/homosexuality etc etc. Because all these topics are rolled up into one now, are highly political (because to the hard Left everything is political) and leveraged as part of the "progressive" strategy to disenfranchise the populace from its core Western cultural values.

 

[Gough]

So the western values of tolerance, and compassion have a caveat?

 

[checkraiseulite]

is the woman identifying as black mentally ill?

is she a fraud?

how do you view that example?

still waiting for views on the above btw

 

[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

So Gough. Do you believe race is a social construct?

 

[Gough]

I didn't even know of this concept until it ended up in this thread as some sort of counterpoint, I assume originally mentioned in a YouTube clip posted here, to the concept of transgenderism. Cultural appropriation has been happening forever, racial fluidity could be seen as an extension of that I guess.

 

[deltablues]

If you go out to deliberately make life unpleasant for anyone you're an arseh*le. That's what you guys are supporting here. Even if you regard transgender people as mentally ill, which I don't, why would you want to take a mental illness, mock it, and then make life more difficult for them? Would you do that for people with clinical depression, or anorexia?

Nobody is mocking transgenderism as a mental illness. Nobody is mocking mental illness. Where do you get that from?

What is being mocked - but mock is not the right word: what is being called out is that the topic of transgenderism has been hijacked in a very cynical way by a corrosive "progressive" (i.e Marxist) political agenda.

 

[checkraiseulite]

I didn't even know of this concept until it ended up in this thread as some sort of counterpoint, I assume originally mentioned in a YouTube clip posted here, to the concept of transgenderism. Cultural appropriation has been happening forever, racial fluidity could be seen as an extension of that I guess.

it's not a counterpoint.

we just want your views.

are male to female transsexuals 'appropriating' feminine identity?

if so, from who? and is it acceptable?

 

[Pie eyed]

Wouldn't expect you to address any argument put forward. Deflect.

I would not give you the oxygen.
Seriously.

 

[Chief]

Not as bad as enslavement of an entire population.

Ffs are you seriously trying to put slavery on the same level???

I don't know what he's doing. Please let us know when you work it out.

 

[skilts]

I fail to see what effect it has upon anyone else how a person chooses to describe themselves.