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Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.
 
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Sep 21, 2004
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Stop looking at the individual and look at the community issue. There is a bloke called Jordan Peterson who was in an entire battle with his employer because he didn't want to be mandated to use pronouns even though he said he would. These issues will likely only become more frequent over time in this PC compliant world. I stated earlier, I now need to be careful if I use correct pronouns and someone gets offended. It's a slippery slope.
If I get pro-nouns wrong (knowingly or accidentally) who's punishing me?
 
Jun 11, 2007
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TV is about ratings. It's not a public service. Financial realities of catering to a teen-trans audience that make up less than .01% of the overall population is bad business.

What if the demographical slice of target audience who worry about whether a transgender teen is shown or not is actually smaller than the slice who is either supportive or apathetic (doesn't care either way) about the portrayal?

Maybe the show's producers have done their market research beforehand?
 
Feb 23, 2009
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Not trying to be provacative at all.

I mean that as you pointed out you're scared for your family. Fear clouds judgement.
I'm trying to establish where this fear really comes from. Experience, media, the unknown.


Thanks for your response, and I think I agree with most of that.

I didn't mean to get your opinion on them, I was pointing out the rejection of science that we are seeing around the world.
And comparing it to the pushback on transgenderism.

I think transgenderism needs more of a discussion. More of an understanding. And a lot more answers.
My concern is the small handful of transphobes and extremists who shut down the discussion, generating division and fear.
Most people are genuinely concerned or supportive.


Absolutely. No demographic is perfect. And we need to be careful of the actual predators.

There was an article linked earlier of a man charged with child abuse who was pushing for same sex bathrooms.
These people exist and there is no denying it.
But if we start to condemn and fear entire demographics based on a small few, we are doing them and ourselves a disservice.


That's an interesting concept.
If someone trying to look down on me, asked me to refer to them as King Bob, I'd not do it out of principle.
If someone that I feel sorry for, or look down on in some way asked me to refer to them as King Bob, I'd probably do it.

Do I look down or feel sorry for transsexuals? Is that why I'm happy to use their preferred pronouns. I don't think so, but I wonder if it plays a part.


I like that. That's a very logical way to go about it, and it seems it would satisfy most people.
You definitely shouldn't be punished for it.
Unless you go out of your way to make it an issue.

But if someone in the workplace demands you refer to them by their preferred gender, rather than by their preferred name... I'd say in most cases that they are the ones causing the issue, and they should get in trouble for it.


Good point.


And the personal values. If you believe the person is a she, and they want you to call them a he. There are now two different personal values that are clashing. I think yours is the best solution, just refer to them by name.
Thank you, rational, logical, considered debate with differing perspectives. You raise some interesting points, there should be more of it.
 
Feb 23, 2009
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If I get pro-nouns wrong (knowingly or accidentally) who's punishing me?
I don't know, you're looking at it from your individual lense so I don't know your circumstances. Punishment could be as simple as judgement or as heavy as losing your job, etc.

I'm not asking you to use or not use requested pronouns, that's entirely your choice.
I'm arguing as a society, it should not be unacceptable to use biologically based scientific pronouns. There are documented examples of issues on this topic, the Jordan Peterson one is the highest profile one I know of, but you can predict there will be more as these topics become more common.
 
Sep 21, 2004
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I don't know, you're looking at it from your individual lense so I don't know your circumstances. Punishment could be as simple as judgement or as heavy as losing your job, etc.

I'm not asking you to use or not use requested pronouns, that's entirely your choice.
I'm arguing as a society, it should not be unacceptable to use biologically based scientific pronouns. There are documented examples of issues on this topic, the Jordan Peterson one is the highest profile one I know of, but you can predict there will be more as these topics become more common.
Jordan Peterson used it as a political battle flag. He was never being compelled to use pronouns in his role as a private citizen.
 
Feb 23, 2009
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Just to give some further perspective.

In my opinion this issue stems from stereotypical gender roles (which can be flexible), and has extended now to biological sex (which is not flexible) and the two have merged. This is where the non-binary/ non-identifying issue stems from.

Stereotypical gender roles: An assumption of how a male or a female should look, dress, act, work, behave, speak, and the emotional and personality characteristics that apply to those stereotypical roles. These can and should be flexible with no need to reference them to biological sex, but society always has and therefore we now have an issue.

If these gender stereotypes do not exist, and sex is treated simply biologically (in the same way having brown or blue eyes is), then there would be no need to "not identify" or be "non-binary". No one chooses to "not identify" as having blue eyes, or to identify as being 6 foot tall when they are 5 foot, because they are purely biological, anatomical properties that are inflexible.

This imo is how sex should be viewed. We have males and females, birth sex, biologically proven science.
There is no need to identify as other, or as non-binary, because what they are really trying to avoid is identification of the gender stereotype, which is the real issue because it's traditionally tied to biological sex.

Biological sex is not flexible, how an individual behaves and their conformity to traditional stereotypes is, but let's remove the two because they should not be tied.
 
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Jordan Peterson used it as a political battle flag. He was never being compelled to use pronouns in his role as a private citizen.
What do you mean private citizen? If you are talking about his role as an employee he was absolutely pressured to change his behavior from a whole number of individuals, groups, and the employer itself.
 
What do you mean private citizen? If you are talking about his role as an employee he was absolutely pressured to change his behavior from a whole number of individuals, groups, and the employer itself.
Was he ever required to address a transgender person? Ever sanctioned in any way for his language in addressing transgender people?
 
Feb 23, 2009
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Was he ever required to address a transgender person? Ever sanctioned in any way for his language in addressing transgender people?
Unsure, but I know there was a heap of pressure and often abuse and harassment too. He may also have feared for his jov security too. Is that not a form of punishment?

Maybe not technically, but not all consequences are tangibly measurable.
 
Unsure, but I know there was a heap of pressure and often abuse and harassment too. He may also have feared for his jov security too. Is that not a form of punishment?

Maybe not technically, but not all consequences are tangibly measurable.
Abuse and harassment from who?
 
Jun 11, 2007
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Was he ever required to address a transgender person? Ever sanctioned in any way for his language in addressing transgender people?

I know he's a psychology professor at the University of Toronto in Canada. Is he an educator? If his job entails teaching a student body that might contain a broad cross-section of society (including possible transgender students) I'd say his job would entail maintaining a certain level of decency in addressing them.

A lecturer who has lost the respect of his students becomes a liability.
 
I know he's a psychology professor at the University of Toronto in Canada. Is he an educator? If his job entails teaching a student body that might contain a broad cross-section of society (including possible transgender students) I'd say his job would entail maintaining a certain level of decency in addressing them.

A lecturer who has lost the respect of his students becomes a liability.
I just keep running into articles by knowledgeable people refuting the idea that he ever had any sort of sanction or was in danger of anything more than a talking to.
 
Jun 11, 2007
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I just keep running into articles by knowledgeable people refuting the idea that he ever had any sort of sanction or was in danger of anything more than a talking to.

I don't believe he's ever faced sanction himself, but he's vocal about what he sees are the dangers of a proposed Canadian legislation called C-16. Article is from January 2017;


On September 27 (2016), University of Toronto psychology professor Jordan Peterson posted a video titled Professor Against Political Correctness on his YouTube channel. The lecture, the first in a three-part series recorded in Peterson’s home office, was inspired by two recent events that he said made him nervous. The first was the introduction of Bill C-16, a federal amendment to the Canadian Human Rights Act and Criminal Code that would add gender identity and gender expression to the list of prohibited grounds for discrimination. Peterson’s second concern was that U of T’s human resources department would soon make anti-bias and anti-discrimination training mandatory for its staff—training he believed to be ineffective, coercive and politically motivated. “I know something about the way that totalitarian, authoritarian political states develop,” Peterson said in the first video, “and I can’t help but think I’m seeing a fair bit of that right now.”

Other profs in his position might have written op-eds, circulated petitions or negotiated with university officials. But Peterson is a big believer in the power of YouTube—“a Gutenberg revolution for speech,” he calls it—and, as it turns out, he had a lot to get off his chest. He carpet-bombed Marxists (“no better than Nazis”), the Ontario Human Rights Commission (“perhaps the biggest enemy of freedom currently extant in Canada”), the Black Liberation Collective (“they have no legitimacy among the people they purport to represent”) and HR departments in general (“the most pathological elements in large organizations”).

Peterson also said he would absolutely not comply with the implied diktat of Bill C-16, which could make the refusal to refer to people by the pronouns of their choice an actionable form of harassment. He believes the idea of a non-binary gender spectrum is specious and he dismisses as nonsensical the raft of gender-neutral pronouns that transgender people have adopted—ze, vis, hir, and the singular use of they, them and their. “I don’t recognize another person’s right to determine what pronouns I use to address them,” he said grimly. “I think they’re connected to an underground apparatus of radical left political motivations. I think uttering those words makes me a tool of those motivations. And I’m going to try and be a tool of my own motivations as clearly as I can articulate them and not the mouthpiece of some murderous ideology...”

I don't know about ze, vis and hir as pronouns myself, but I see no problem whatsoever in referring to someone either by name or in reference as they, them or their. As I said, if Professor Peterson is in the role of educator and continually acts in a disrespectful manner towards a part of the student body then Professor Peterson becomes a liability to the University. If this is a position held as an individual and explored in an academic role, then that's a bit different.
 
Apr 23, 2016
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I don't believe he's ever faced sanction himself, but he's vocal about what he sees are the dangers of a proposed Canadian legislation called C-16. Article is from January 2017;



I don't know about ze, vis and hir as pronouns myself, but I see no problem whatsoever in referring to someone either by name or in reference as they, them or their. As I said, if Professor Peterson is in the role of educator and continually acts in a disrespectful manner towards a part of the student body then Professor Peterson becomes a liability to the University. If this is a position held as an individual and explored in an academic role, then that's a bit different.

From memory I recall him saying if a student asks him to refer to them in a certain way he would respect their request, it was the compel and require aspect he objected to.
 
Jun 11, 2007
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From memory I recall him saying if a student asks him to refer to them in a certain way he would respect their request, it was the compel and require aspect he objected to.

That actually sounds reasonable. A lot of people are actually decent people, they just hate being compelled to be decent. I guess this is part of the backlash against political correctness - not the fact that its all about common decency but more the fact that it demands it, with consequences for a wrong decision.

Then again, some delight in being arseholes. They seem to feed off causing offence. I think PC directives intended to be aimed at those lot rather than people who would treat others with respect as a matter of course.
 
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That actually sounds reasonable. A lot of people are actually decent people, they just hate being compelled to be decent. I guess this is part of the backlash against political correctness - not the fact that its all about common decency but more the fact that it demands it, with consequences for a wrong decision.

Then again, some delight in being arseholes. They seem to feed off causing offence. I think PC directives intended to be aimed at those lot rather than people who would treat others with respect as a matter of course.

The problem is that I'd suggest the majority are the decent people who don't want to be told what to do, so directives are being implemented based upon a minority, that stretch beyond law and order type things.
 
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..... in a sign of international networking by critics of the affirmative model, seven Swedish physicians, including adolescent and child psychiatrist Sven Roman, have written to Scott Morrison, backing local calls for an independent inquiry. A medical college is already reviewing standards of care.

The Swedish doctors cite the high rate of psychological and other disorders in the mostly teenage girls now diagnosed with dysphoria by gender clinics.

“There is a possibility that the majority of patients in the new group have autism or autism-like conditions,” they say.

“In their teens, people with autism have even more concerns about their body and identity than other adolescents.”

They say these patients often suffer from self-harming, eating disorders, mental trauma, depression and emotional instability, which along with autism may be the main underlying problems.

Like similar “affirmative model” projects in Britain and the US, the Melbourne Trans20 study lacks a comparison group of patients getting rival treatment such as cautious psychotherapy, casting doubt over what the results might mean.

“If the kids do seem better after a year or two, we won’t know whether it’s because of, or despite, the gender-affirmative intervention, or because they got a lot of attention,” Dr D’Angelo said.

Before the 2000s, gender dysphoria typically appeared in preschool boys, and in most cases resolved itself as children matured, with many emerging as young gay or bisexual adults at peace with their biological sex.

The Australian psychiatrists’ letter warns that the affirmative-only approach, with early pro-trans intervention, may “lock” young people into gender dysphoria, as well as “closing them off to future choices in identity”.


The above is more than what is quoted, but behind a paywall.
 
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“Having a period already causes me a lot of [gender] dysphoria, but this dysphoria becomes heightened when I have to shop for a product that is labeled as ‘women’s health’ and in most cases, is pretty and pink,” Jones explained.​

* me, what a hardship. Why should I care that these people commit suicide in great number again?
 

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Long article about how deleterious puberty blockers can be, and what hidden harms they may be wreaking

 
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