Transgender

[ShanDog]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Yes it is - otherwise I would have no idea what you are referring to when you say 'biological sex'.

It is a concept - a mental representation referring to the trait that determines an individual's reproductive function, male or female, in animals and plants that propagate their species through sexual reproduction.


Not at all. But if you post stuff like "I don't know how you're missing this", then perhaps it may indicate that you need to be clearer with your language.


It is not defiance - because they are two separate concepts. Don't take my word for - look at the definitions used by the Australian Bureau of Statistics:

Sex
Underlying Concepts

Name of variable
The name of the variable is ‘sex’.

Definitions
Nominal definition
A person's sex is based upon their sex characteristics, such as their chromosomes, hormones and reproductive organs. While typically based upon the sex characteristics observed and recorded at birth or infancy, a person's sex can change over the course of their lifetime and may differ from their sex recorded at birth.

Operational definition
Sex recorded at birth refers to what was determined by sex characteristics observed at birth or infancy. This is an important indicator for statistical analysis in births and deaths, health statistics, calculating fertility rates and deriving counts for cis and trans populations.

A collection may instead ask for a person's sex at the time of completing a survey, rather than their sex recorded at birth. However, there are advantages of sex recorded at birth as the sex question and further data that can be derived when using sex recorded at birth as the sex question, as outlined below in Discussion on conceptual issues.

Discussion on conceptual issues
Sex and gender
The terms sex and gender are interrelated and often used interchangeably, however they are two distinct concepts:

• Sex is understood in relation to sex characteristics. Sex recorded at birth refers to what was determined by sex characteristics observed at birth or infancy
• Gender is about social and cultural differences in identity, expression and experience. This is discussed further in the Gender variable.

While they are two related concepts, caution should be exercised when comparing counts for sex with those for gender. Caution should also be exercised when comparing counts for sex recorded at birth and the sex of a person at the time of completing a survey, as a person's sex may change over the course of their lifetime.

As the terms sex and gender are often used interchangeably, a respondent might provide a gender response to a sex question. The sex recorded at birth question may reduce the number of gender responses to a sex question. Inclusion of a specific gender question may also improve accuracy of reporting against a sex question. If both sex and gender questions are included in a survey, it is recommended that the sex question is asked first, with a note that a separate gender question will also be asked. Where practical, best practice is to ask both the sex and gender questions on the same page of the survey instrument.

Standard for Sex, Gender, Variations of Sex Characteristics and Sexual Orientation Variables


You are entitled to your opinion that gender and sex are not two distinct concepts. Just don't be shocked when the rest of the world (including the statutory agency that is charged with collecting data and statistics on these variables) disagrees with your view.

And if you are going to try to convince anyone of your particular view, maybe try to frame your arguments better?


Quote me.

I stand corrected, seems the ABS's interpretation of concept is in contradiction with interweb thingy's interpretation of the biological sex. According to it biological sex is not a concept but somehow the ABS can state it is because it can be used as a 'term'.

Of course it can be used as a 'term' in other news water is wet.

Gender - concept
Biological sex - not concept

Whichever way you boil it down and dissect it biological sex is not a 'concept' - but hey you can't be convinced so I give up you win.

Have a nice day.

 

[Suspense]

I stand corrected, seems the ABS's interpretation of concept is in contradiction with interweb thingy's interpretation of the biological sex. According to it biological sex is not a concept but somehow the ABS can state it is because it can be used as a 'term'.

Of course it can be used as a 'term' in other news water is wet.

Gender - concept
Biological sex - not concept

Whichever way you boil it down and dissect it biological sex is not a 'concept' - but hey you can't be convinced so I give up you win.

Have a nice day.


View attachment 1181768

Scroll down further:

an idea or mental image which corresponds to some distinct entity or class of entities, or to its essential features, or determines the application of a term (especially a predicate), and thus plays a part in the use of reason or language.

Or the Wikipedia definition:

Concepts are defined as abstract ideas or general notions that occur in the mind, in speech, or in thought. They are understood to be the fundamental building blocks of thoughts and beliefs. They play an important role in all aspects of cognition.


We form concepts to internally rationalise, as well as externally communicate, our observations about the world. They can be concepts about physical observations in the world such as a 'tree' or non-physical concepts such as 'freedom' or 'nostalgia'. Biological sex has a basis in scientific physical observations whereas gender is based on social constructs - however both are concepts. This is common knowledge for most people.

 

[Kwality]

A comment on the activism & its proponents:

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

Sam wrote to Rowling: “I wish you a very nice pipebomb in mailbox.”

Rowling remarked: “To be fair, when you can’t get a woman sacked, arrested or dropped by her publisher, and cancelling her only made her book sales go up, there’s really only one place to go.”

Rowling provoked anger in June last year when she tweeted about a headline that referred to “people who menstruate”. She wrote: “I’m sure there used to be a word for those people. Someone help me out. Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud?”

 

[Sweet Jesus]

A comment on the activism & its proponents:

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

Sam wrote to Rowling: “I wish you a very nice pipebomb in mailbox.”

Rowling remarked: “To be fair, when you can’t get a woman sacked, arrested or dropped by her publisher, and cancelling her only made her book sales go up, there’s really only one place to go.”

Rowling provoked anger in June last year when she tweeted about a headline that referred to “people who menstruate”. She wrote: “I’m sure there used to be a word for those people. Someone help me out. Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud?”

But sure, let's pretend these radical elements don't exist.

 

[Scotland]

Sex and gender diverse passport applicants

Do Australian passports recognise the circumstances of sex and gender diverse Australians? Yes. We issue passports to sex and gender diverse applicants.

www.passports.gov.au

Consistent with the Australian Government Guidelines on the Recognition of Sex and Gender (link is external), we print holders’ gender in the ‘Sex’ field of Australian passports. The gender markers we use are: M (male), F (female) and X (non-binary/indeterminate/intersex/unspecified/other).

Sex and gender totally aren't interchangeable terms, though...

 

[Eagle Wrath]

The upcoming Aust Census will be interesting. I wonder how many will take the piss when answering the gender/sex question. We will probably find Aust has only a few million men and women. The rest will be some anomaly.
Just like the religion question in previous years. Jedi etc

 

[Suspense]

Sex and gender diverse passport applicants

Do Australian passports recognise the circumstances of sex and gender diverse Australians? Yes. We issue passports to sex and gender diverse applicants.

www.passports.gov.au

Consistent with the Australian Government Guidelines on the Recognition of Sex and Gender (link is external), we print holders’ gender in the ‘Sex’ field of Australian passports. The gender markers we use are: M (male), F (female) and X (non-binary/indeterminate/intersex/unspecified/other).

Sex and gender totally aren't interchangeable terms, though...

11. For the purposes of these Guidelines, sex refers to the chromosomal, gonadal and anatomical characteristics associated with biological sex.

12. The term intersex refers to people who are born with genetic, hormonal or physical sex characteristics that are not typically ‘male’ or ‘female’. Intersex people have a diversity of bodies and gender identities, and may identify as male or female or neither.

13. Gender is part of a person’s personal and social identity. It refers to the way a person feels, presents and is recognised within the community. A person’s gender may be reflected in outward social markers, including their name, outward appearance, mannerisms and dress.

14. Although sex and gender are conceptually distinct, these terms are commonly used interchangeably, including in legislation.

15. A person’s sex and gender may not necessarily be the same. Some people may identify as a different gender to their birth sex and some people may identify as neither exclusively male nor female.

 

[Kwality]

The upcoming Aust Census will be interesting. I wonder how many will take the piss when answering the gender/sex question. We will probably find Aust has only a few million men and women. The rest will be some anomaly.
Just like the religion question in previous years. Jedi etc

Easy: pointers or squatters

 

[Scotland]

11. For the purposes of these Guidelines, sex refers to the chromosomal, gonadal and anatomical characteristics associated with biological sex.

12. The term intersex refers to people who are born with genetic, hormonal or physical sex characteristics that are not typically ‘male’ or ‘female’. Intersex people have a diversity of bodies and gender identities, and may identify as male or female or neither.

13. Gender is part of a person’s personal and social identity. It refers to the way a person feels, presents and is recognised within the community. A person’s gender may be reflected in outward social markers, including their name, outward appearance, mannerisms and dress.

14. Although sex and gender are conceptually distinct, these terms are commonly used interchangeably, including in legislation.

15. A person’s sex and gender may not necessarily be the same. Some people may identify as a different gender to their birth sex and some people may identify as neither exclusively male nor female.

Intellectual waffle.

 

[Suspense]

Intellectual waffle.

Weird to cite a document that plainly contradicts your main contention.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Not sure what to make of this piece. Ignore Bari Weiss. I don't care for her either but she isn't the author. It's a piece by Katie Herzog hosted on Weiss's site.

I take the reporting with a pinch of salt because the anecdotal parts of it seem to be based on a single school. It doesn't make any case how widespread this kind of teaching has become.

Suffice to say, though, if this is happening, it's radical and more importantly wrong. Suspense, I assume you agree?

When sex is acknowledged by her instructors, it’s sometimes portrayed as a social construct, not a biological reality, she says. In a lecture on transgender health, an instructor declared: “Biological sex, sexual orientation, and gender are all constructs. These are all constructs that we have created.”

In other words, some of the country’s top medical students are being taught that humans are not, like other mammals, a species comprising two sexes. The notion of sex, they are learning, is just a man-made creation.

The idea that sex is a social construct may be interesting debate fodder in an anthropology class. But in medicine, the material reality of sex really matters, in part because the refusal to acknowledge sex can have devastating effects on patient outcomes.

Med Schools Are Now Denying Biological Sex

Professors are apologizing for saying ‘male’ and ‘female.’ Students are policing teachers. This is what it looks like when activism takes over medicine.

bariweiss.substack.com

 

[Suspense]

Not sure what to make of this piece. Ignore Bari Weiss. I don't care for her either but she isn't the author. It's a piece by Katie Herzog hosted on Weiss's site.

I take the reporting with a pinch of salt because the anecdotal parts of it seem to be based on a single school. It doesn't make any case how widespread this kind of teaching has become.

Suffice to say, though, if this is happening, it's radical and more importantly wrong. Suspense, I assume you agree?

Med Schools Are Now Denying Biological Sex

Professors are apologizing for saying ‘male’ and ‘female.’ Students are policing teachers. This is what it looks like when activism takes over medicine.

bariweiss.substack.com

When sex is acknowledged by her instructors, it’s sometimes portrayed as a social construct, not a biological reality, she says. In a lecture on transgender health, an instructor declared: “Biological sex, sexual orientation, and gender are all constructs. These are all constructs that we have created.”

In other words, some of the country’s top medical students are being taught that humans are not, like other mammals, a species comprising two sexes. The notion of sex, they are learning, is just a man-made creation.

Without seeing the full context of the quote from that instructor, the conclusion drawn is a misrepresentation of that quote. Biological sex is a construct relating to empirically observed phenomena (genitalia, DNA). Stating that it is a construct is not denying biological sex per se.

Is the author being deliberately mischievous or just unintelligent?

----

During a recent endocrinology course at a top medical school in the University of California system, a professor stopped mid-lecture to apologize for something he’d said at the beginning of class.

“I said ‘when a woman is pregnant,’ which implies that only women can get pregnant and I most sincerely apologize to all of you.”

It wasn’t the first time Lauren had heard an instructor apologize for using language that, to most Americans, would seem utterly inoffensive. Words like “male” and “female.”

The professor didn't use the term 'female' but 'woman'. Another misrepresentation. On the matter itself, I don't think it is transphobic to say 'when a woman is pregnant' - particularly in common parlance - but a professor probably should be more accurate in their terminology.


As to my view, this twitter reply [from a professor of Neuroscience and Biological Sciences] sums it up best:

 

[Sweet Jesus]

When sex is acknowledged by her instructors, it’s sometimes portrayed as a social construct, not a biological reality, she says. In a lecture on transgender health, an instructor declared: “Biological sex, sexual orientation, and gender are all constructs. These are all constructs that we have created.”

In other words, some of the country’s top medical students are being taught that humans are not, like other mammals, a species comprising two sexes. The notion of sex, they are learning, is just a man-made creation.

Without seeing the full context of the quote from that instructor, the conclusion drawn is a misrepresentation of that quote. Biological sex is a construct relating to empirically observed phenomena (genitalia, DNA). Stating that it is a construct is not denying biological sex per se.

Is the author being deliberately mischievous or just unintelligent?

What do you mean when you say biological sex is a construct? Is diagnosing heart disease or diabetes a construct as well?

I do agree that this article may well have taken some liberties. I have quite a few questions about the reporting.

However, if teaching was shown to be eliding the fact of biological sex, that would be a problem, right? That's a general question - I'm not saying this article makes that case.

During a recent endocrinology course at a top medical school in the University of California system, a professor stopped mid-lecture to apologize for something he’d said at the beginning of class.

“I said ‘when a woman is pregnant,’ which implies that only women can get pregnant and I most sincerely apologize to all of you.”

It wasn’t the first time Lauren had heard an instructor apologize for using language that, to most Americans, would seem utterly inoffensive. Words like “male” and “female.”

The professor didn't use the term 'female' but 'woman'. Another misrepresentation. On the matter itself, I don't think it is transphobic to say 'when a woman is pregnant' - particularly in common parlance - but a professor probably should be more accurate in their terminology.

Sorry, what's the misrepresentation? More to the point, was an apology required?

Who is claiming that it's "transphobic" to say "when a woman is pregnant"? What should we do with complaints like that?

As to my view, this twitter reply [from a professor of Neuroscience and Biological Sciences] sums it up best:

That's neat but I'm not sure unspecific denials are going to suffice indefinitely.

If these complaints about "transphobic language" are in fact being made, even if this article has put some mustard on it, they're going to need to be addressed directly at some point, and either accommodated or refuted definitively as a matter of policy and governance.

Is it actually transphobic to say "when a woman is pregnant"? You say no. But apparently some folks say yes. Are they wrong? Should those complaints be accommodated or should those people be told to jump in the sea?

 

[Eagle Wrath]

Quoting twitter should be banned (mods get on it). Its absolute poison. All this nonsense is only found on twitter. Corporations and the news are running with twitter nonsense as if the real world thinks that way.

Don't give it anymore relevance that it deserves. Its just a troll site

 

[Suspense]

What do you mean when you say biological sex is a construct? Is diagnosing heart disease or diabetes a construct as well?

I do agree that this article may well have taken some liberties. I have quite a few questions about the reporting.

Yes they are all constructs - socially constructed notions given 'objective meaning' so they can be discussed, written about and diagnosed. Like biological sex, heart disease and diabetes relate to empirically observed phenomena - whereas gender is a social phenomena.

However, if teaching was shown to be eliding the fact of biological sex, that would be a problem, right? That's a general question - I'm not saying this article makes that case.

Of course - it would be incredibly harmful to the health outcomes of all people if the notion of biological sex (or 'sex assigned at birth' - whatever the preferred phrasing is) was completely omitted from medical education.

Sorry, what's the misrepresentation?

Suggesting that terms like 'male' and 'female' are being omitted from medical education - based on an apology by a professor for using the term 'woman'.
The professor didn't say 'female'.

More to the point, was an apology required?

Who is claiming that it's "transphobic" to say "when a woman is pregnant"? What should we do with complaints like that?

It depends on the context of the comment. Was it in relation to a specific example - if so - the comment is fine as a woman can become pregnant.
If it was in the context of discussing 'pregnancy' itself, I think a simple clarification would be fine (no need for an apology) - as the comment is inaccurate - in a medical sense.

That's neat but I'm not sure unspecific denials are going to suffice indefinitely.

More than happy for you to cite some medical anatomy textbooks that contradict his claim.

If these complaints about "transphobic language" are in fact being made, even if this article has put some mustard on it, they're going to need to be addressed directly at some point, and either accommodated or refuted definitively as a matter of policy and governance.

Is it actually transphobic to say "when a woman is pregnant"? You say no. But apparently some folks say yes. Are they wrong? Should those complaints be accommodated or should those people be told to jump in the sea?

It depends on the nature of the compliant.

If the compliant relates to a professor stating that "only women become pregnant - because there is no difference between one's biological sex and their gender" - then yes that would be transphobic.

If the compliant relates to this specific example, where the professor inadvently implied that only women become pregnant - it's not transphobic - but inaccurate and should be clarified.

If the complaints relate to any references to biological sex (or 'sex assigned at birth') and take the view that such notions ought to be completely exorcised from the medical profession [which was not the case in this instance], the professor should refute these claims - and treat it as a learning opportunity to educate these radical proponents on the health-based importance of being able to determine a patient's biological sex (or 'sex assigned at birth') - for the purposes of accurate diagnoses and treatments.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Yes they are all constructs - socially constructed notions given 'objective meaning' so they can be discussed, written about and diagnosed. Like biological sex, heart disease and diabetes relate to empirically observed phenomena - whereas gender is a social phenomena.

This is a silly word game. Is gravity a social construction too?

Of course - it would be incredibly harmful to the health outcomes of all people if the notion of biological sex (or 'sex assigned at birth' - whatever the preferred phrasing is) was completely omitted from medical education.

OK, agreed.

Suggesting that terms like 'male' and 'female' are being omitted from medical education - based on an apology by a professor for using the term 'woman'.
The professor didn't say 'female'.

I think you're misreading that. I don't think the second sentence was a corollary of the first. It was simply an assertion that words such as male and female are being omitted. It wasn't necessarily claiming that the previous quote was the basis for that assertion.

It depends on the context of the comment. Was it in relation to a specific example - if so - the comment is fine as a woman can become pregnant.
If it was in the context of discussing 'pregnancy' itself, I think a simple clarification would be fine (no need for an apology) - as the comment is inaccurate - in a medical sense.

So no apology required in either context.

More than happy for you to cite some medical anatomy textbooks that contradict his claim.

I'm saying that simply quoting a Twitter denial doesn't adequately address the questions. And it won't suffice as these issues surface.

It depends on the nature of the compliant.

If the compliant relates to a professor stating that "only women become pregnant - because there is no difference between one's biological sex and their gender" - then yes that would be transphobic.

If the compliant relates to this specific example, where the professor inadvently implied that only women become pregnant - it's not transphobic - but inaccurate and should be clarified.

We are assuming the latter. But complaints of this nature appear destined to arise.

If the complaints relate to any references to biological sex (or 'sex assigned at birth') and take the view that such notions ought to be completely exorcised from the medical profession [which was not the case in this instance], the professor should refute these claims - and treat it as a learning opportunity to educate these radical proponents on the health-based importance of being able to determine a patient's biological sex (or 'sex assigned at birth') - for the purposes of accurate diagnoses and treatments.

It will be fascinating to see how that exchange plays out.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

For what it's worth I'm in the 'biology and gender role are seperate' camp. At birth you can be one of three things - male, female or on extremely rare occasions intersex or hermaphroditic. What you become afterwards depends on how you're brought up.

Biological science itself has no agenda - it is not right-wing nor left-wing. It's just cold, hard fact. Results and outcomes are what they are in science but its how they're dressed up after the fact and presented to the world that affects peoples' perceptions. Ditto biological sex and gender.

 

[Baird]

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness

 

[Gough]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/29/spain-bill-change-official-gender-without-medical-chec

This is a really good step forward in my view. Allowing people to change gender without medical checks would allow gender fluid people to be as they wish without bringing medicine into it initially. It would allow people to experiment more with their gender in their teens without puberty blocker, which are one of the main criticisms of medicine when it comes to gender dysphoria in teens amd without making changes that can't be reversed.

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness

F*** off.

 

[Scotland]

Why is gender even documented? It's been watered down to a meaningless concept and there are 17 new ones each day anyway.

Official documentation just needs to list your sex. Male, female, or other.

 

[William Wonka]

I think trans issues have been hijacked by the whole 'non binary' and 'pro nouns' thing.
Trans people face complex and challenging situations every day of their lives.

Deciding that you feel like changing your pro nouns on Twitter in an attempt to seem interesting is attention whoring.

 

[Chief]

Deciding that you feel like changing your pro nouns on Twitter in an attempt to seem interesting is attention whoring.

How many people have done that?

 

[Lethality]

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness

Mental illness is valid. It's not a reason to dismiss someone's suffering.

 

[Lethality]

At first this looked crazy, but I think the key words might be legal and public. Or maybe it is crazy.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Hubbard lifting in the 87+kg division very shortly.