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ShanDog

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Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.
 
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Chief

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Does hormone replacement therapy shorten your arms and legs, decrease the size of your hands and feet, decrease the capacity of your lungs and heart that have developed during male puberty? These are all physical traits that are extremely beneficial when it comes to competitive swimming.
There's a lot in that, and you're claiming these are all definite facts.

Lung and heart capacity?

From what I recall lung capacity is related to body size. Your body needs that to move itself around. Lung capacity of a large human put into a smaller human would be an advantage. But the natural higher lung capacity of a large human doesn't necessarily give them an advantage: it just lets them move around at the same rate as smaller people.

A small person and a large person doing the same work/training would have the same ratio of lung capacity to size.

Happy to be corrected by people in the know if my facts are cringe-inducingly off the mark, that's off the top of my head.
 

LukeParkerno1

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Ah got you. Aside from 50% of the categories being compromised they were all running fine. I'm with you.

Men has been running fine and all para swimming categories have been good. Just needed to clean up the women category and they have. It’s perfect now. Create a new category if need be for the affected individuals. This works for the majority.
 

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owen87

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There's a lot in that, and you're claiming these are all definite facts.

Lung and heart capacity?

From what I recall lung capacity is related to body size. Your body needs that to move itself around. Lung capacity of a large human put into a smaller human would be an advantage. But the natural higher lung capacity of a large human doesn't necessarily give them an advantage: it just lets them move around at the same rate as smaller people.

A small person and a large person doing the same work/training would have the same ratio of lung capacity to size.

Happy to be corrected by people in the know if my facts are cringe-inducingly off the mark, that's off the top of my head.


This roughly agrees with you, it's mostly proportionate to size.
 

randyzany

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Exactly, if FINA didn't do something womens events would become a joke. They are some of the best events in the Olympics we don't need to wreck them. The olive branch was given, start doing it before puberty and then you are welcome to compete at the elite level. We need to protect the elite sport, and FINA have despite the whinging from some parts. Least in the majority the vote went through and we have protected swimming. You'd assume all the other Olympic sports will follow suit.
If it were up to me I'd make it illegal for any doctor to attempt to go through with that procedure at that age. Anyone under 21 does not have the mature mind to make that sort of life changing decision especially one that involves their body that could potentially be irreversible.

Which essentially means they have banned individuals suffering from physical dysphoria, with the advantages of puberty, from competing against biological women which is a perfectly normal sound logical decision, no issues with it what-so-ever.

Otherwise it should be a free for all and men and women (and other genders) should compete for the same medals, as there'd be no point in separating athletes with different fairly arbitrary classifications.
 

Gralin

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So this is the kind of thing happening now

20220622_174505.jpg


Can you guess what's wrong with this?
 

Herne Hill Hammer

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Yes. I remember discussions of many outlier possibilities, but as a 15/16 year old male much of it was the center of humour.

Yes. Plenty of discussion about the effects of both hormones. There were hormone treatments back in those days. Believe it or not there were even quite a lot of transexuals, certainly not as many as you hear of these days but they made much much bigger news, per head than they do even now that Scott and his "Devil" (Deves) woman are "dog whistling".
Also discussion of the effects of Estrogen based fertilisers on human fertility, and defects caused by chemicals crossing the placental barrier.

I wish I could assume that. It would not be hard for our media to present a rational view, though as long as we have Rupert, expect the lowest common denominator approach. He and much of the media targets the stupid.

Along with the eastern bloc doping regime in the 70s and 80s there were also reports of female athletes being impregnated for the higher estrogen levels and having the babies aborted.

From memory the Olympic committee used to sex test athletes, I'm not sure how this was done, but a good trivia question was always, 'which Olympic athlete was never sex tested?', the answer was Princess Anne when she competed in equestrian events in 1976.


 

Gralin

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Along with the eastern bloc doping regime in the 70s and 80s there were also reports of female athletes being impregnated for the higher estrogen levels and having the babies aborted.

From memory the Olympic committee used to sex test athletes, I'm not sure how this was done, but a good trivia question was always, 'which Olympic athlete was never sex tested?', the answer was Princess Anne when she competed in equestrian events in 1976.


It was a visual inspection followed by an internal inspection
 

Herne Hill Hammer

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Thank you for committing this exhaustive research on this subject on Big Footy for our perusal.

If you are suggesting that there is no difference in performance between males and females without any form of chemical or drug intervention then how can you explain that female running records are about 10% inferior to male records? In explosive/power type track and field pursuits like the triple jump and the high jump for example, the difference in the records is even more significant. With the hammer throw and the discuss however, where technique is critical to performance, the difference in performances is much less significant but still favouring male by about 3% to 4%.

The important thing to realise I would suggest, is that in general, sports where technique is more critical than physiological attributes, there is a less discernible difference between female and male performance and as the importance of technique grows in comparison to the physiology of the person, then the differences between male and female performance is much smaller. As the physiological attributes become more important than the technique in the overall performance of a sporting pursuit, then the difference in proficiency in favour of the male in that sport is greater than the female.

Athletic performance is influenced by both genetic and environmental factors however, I am of the firm belief that anatomy does not determine gender.

The hammer for men weighs 7.26kg and for women it weighs 4.0kg, the shot, discus and javelin are all different weights too.

I started athletics as a 6 year old in 1974 in u/7s (the youngest you could start) and competed until u/14s. I was recently going through the athletics centre records, there are still quite a few from my era, some earlier but in every instance, every record, whether it be running, jumping or throwing is quite noticeably faster, further or higher in the boys categories, these ages would encompass both pre and post puberty.
 

chopflop

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There's no such thing as a trans man?
Someone who has transitioned is then considered a man. Someone who has transitioned from man to woman is considered a woman. I am not sure how the category of 'trans man' or 'trans woman' makes sense given your argument. It reifies a category that is meant to be unimportant no? This is different to the categories of trans person or trans rights because these categories can be used effectively in a political sense whereas trans man and trans woman kind of contradicts your points
 

RookiePick

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The hammer for men weighs 7.26kg and for women it weighs 4.0kg, the shot, discus and javelin are all different weights too.

I started athletics as a 6 year old in 1974 in u/7s (the youngest you could start) and competed until u/14s. I was recently going through the athletics centre records, there are still quite a few from my era, some earlier but in every instance, every record, whether it be running, jumping or throwing is quite noticeably faster, further or higher in the boys categories, these ages would encompass both pre and post puberty.

Further evidence of the oppression of the patriarchy.
 

Gralin

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Someone who has transitioned is then considered a man. Someone who has transitioned from man to woman is considered a woman. I am not sure how the category of 'trans man' or 'trans woman' makes sense given your argument. It reifies a category that is meant to be unimportant no? This is different to the categories of trans person or trans rights because these categories can be used effectively in a political sense whereas trans man and trans woman kind of contradicts your points
What specifically do you think I'm arguing?
Someone else posted men v men, female v female and trans v trans

Apart from the question of why they use men and female as the first two choices instead of men and women or male and female, i was asking if they expected trans men and women to compete in the same event

Apart from that how does saying cis women or trans women cause an issue.

Both are women
 

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chopflop

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i was asking if they expected trans men and women to compete in the same event
It's semantics and a small point I know. But this should be 'trans people compete against each other in the same event' if you are being consistent with the proposition there are women (trans and cis included) and men (trans and cis included).

If you use the qualifier 'trans' in front of the noun man or woman in any context really, you are suggesting that there is some kind of essential distinction between the two and I have interpreted your thoughts in this thread as not agreeing with that idea. i.e.,
Both are women
 

Gralin

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It's semantics and a small point I know. But this should be 'trans people compete against each other in the same event' if you are being consistent with the proposition there are women (trans and cis included) and men (trans and cis included).

If you use the qualifier 'trans' in front of the noun man or woman in any context really, you are suggesting that there is some kind of essential distinction between the two and I have interpreted your thoughts in this thread as not agreeing with that idea. i.e.,
Do you think saying white woman, tall woman, gay man etc indicates those people aren't all men or women?
 

Gralin

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Let me guess. No trans people in the photo?
There's a trans person in the photo, but prior to transitioning.
Also prior to ending up in a wheel chair from a tackle from another cis woman who was smaller. Which was also prior to them transitioning

 

chopflop

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Do you think saying white woman, tall woman, gay man etc indicates those people aren't all men or women?
Of course I don't. I understand how important social classifications are... I also think the distinction between male and female is an important and biological one and the basis of policies like the FINA one.

Assigned female at birth category for swimmers, assigned male at birth category for swimmers at birth and 'other' category is a perfectly palatable solution that balances inclusion with the constraints (or affordances depending on your perspective) dictated by our biology.

I am saying that by supporting the idea that 'all women' regardless of their biological status at birth should all swim in the same race, suggests that you don't believe the distinction is necessary? So I questioned why you would use the qualifier 'trans man' or 'trans woman' (or even parroting someone else's use) because it actually reifies the biological distinction you are arguing is unimportant.

White woman - I am not sure you should bring race into these social constructivist arguments - otherwise by analogy you might imply that it is possible to transition race or identify as a different race?

Tall woman - a biological qualifier - I agree is a useful one.

Gay man - a sexual orientation qualifier only discernable through one's practices or/with their self-identification.

I still don't see how the 'trans' man and 'trans' woman serve a purpose other than as the basis for exclusion?
 

Gralin

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Of course I don't. I understand how important social classifications are... I also think the distinction between male and female is an important and biological one and the basis of policies like the FINA one.
Why is it so important to you? Also I never, said anything about male
Its also not a simple one if you want to get into the biology.


Assigned female at birth category for swimmers, assigned male at birth category for swimmers at birth and 'other' category is a perfectly palatable solution that balances inclusion with the constraints (or affordances depending on your perspective) dictated by our biology.
AFAB hasn't stopped women getting banned from competing due to "unfair advantage" without any actual evidence of an advantage.
Other.... How about you * off
I am saying that by supporting the idea that 'all women' regardless of their biological status at birth should all swim in the same race, suggests that you don't believe the distinction is necessary? So I questioned why you would use the qualifier 'trans man' or 'trans woman' (or even parroting someone else's use) because it actually reifies the biological distinction you are arguing is unimportant.
Why would someone call themselves a gay man or a black woman or an American or a harry potter fan?
People identify themselves, people describe themselves and a lot of trans people will describe themselves as a trans woman or trans man, or transmasc, transfemme
Cis people have lots of descriptions for themselves, nobody questions that generally.

White woman - I am not sure you should bring race into these social constructivist arguments - otherwise by analogy you might imply that it is possible to transition race or identify as a different race?
Having fun with your strawman?
Tall woman - a biological qualifier - I agree is a useful one.
Good for you, now define tall
Gay man - a sexual orientation qualifier only discernable through one's practices or/with their self-identification.
Self Id is the way to go
I still don't see how the 'trans' man and 'trans' woman serve a purpose other than as the basis for exclusion?
Because you want to exclude them but pretend you're being nice about it
 

chopflop

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Why is it so important to you? Also I never, said anything about male
Its also not a simple one if you want to get into the biology.



AFAB hasn't stopped women getting banned from competing due to "unfair advantage" without any actual evidence of an advantage.
Other.... How about you * off

Why would someone call themselves a gay man or a black woman or an American or a harry potter fan?
People identify themselves, people describe themselves and a lot of trans people will describe themselves as a trans woman or trans man, or transmasc, transfemme
Cis people have lots of descriptions for themselves, nobody questions that generally.


Having fun with your strawman?

Good for you, now define tall

Self Id is the way to go

Because you want to exclude them but pretend you're being nice about it
I think we are talking past each other now but I appreciate the Convo. It is definitely a complex debate
 

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I have to wonder how many here with the big opinions have actually met a transgender, I personally partied heavily with a group in the late 80s early nineties what a hoot. Wouldn't want to play sport against them though, they punched the crap out of any guy that crossed them. Looking forward to the personal experiences of others here.
 

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