Transgender

[ShanDog]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Leeda]

It's ******* deplorable that those hard working women (the real ones) are relegated down the order purely just to facilitate the fantasies of an impostor.

now you are being deliberately provocative.. snail bacteria... just so we are on equal footing...

 

[kickazz]

This is really very simple.
Have a transgender comp,”I identify as x,y,z”
That’s it,done and dusted!
The Paralympics has dozens of different categories in every event,why not gender identities?

Well that's the thing.

The reason that separate women's competetions were introduced are:

1. Women form a subset of the human race that due to genetics/biology make them perform worse on average (when all humans are considered), and thus also at the tails of the bell curve, to the point of exclusion from being close to competetive at the elite level.
2. They form a large enough subset of the population (50%) to warrant their blanket exclusion as manifestly unfair.

But even with point #2 considered, women have had to fight for inclusion. Gender is something we identify with so strongly that it matters.


Now, there are plenty of other attributes that satisfy criteria #1 (genetic high responders vs genetic non responders to high intensity training; height; arm length, etc etc).

Do we have separate categories for them? No. Probably because criteria 2 is not satisfied. And even if it is in terms of % of population, e.g. 80% of people not being a genetic high responder to interval training, it does not form nearly as strong a part of our "identity" as our gender does. I have heard of basketball competitions restricted to folks under 6 foot though, so it happens, but is an exception.

Anyway I hope you understood that waffle.

A key take out is this: why are women disadvataged compared to men in many sports?

There are a number of things. Average height and weight is one. The glaringly obvious one is testosterone levels and with it the ability to put on muscle mass. There may be others.

And so, having separate women's competetions is due to the disadvantages in this area, combined with the strong role that gender plays in our identity. To allow someone to compete in women's competetions based solely on identity is clearly wrong. The specifics of the physical advantages need to be taken into account.

I've read that after a period of hormonal intervention, a trans woman will have lost the innate physical advantages she had when she was a man. If that's measurably true, then it is not unreasonable to have such measurements (like hormone levels) as an input into whether a trans woman (who is part way to reaching their desired level of physical "womanness"), is eligible to compete as a woman.

Likewise, it should not prevent them either.

 

[CheapCharlie]

Ive been reading more articles about the backlash form groups against the radical trans lobby groups. This article is from feminist Julie Bindel, Titled Silencing Women in the Name of Trans Activism

"In 2008, I was shortlisted by the British gay rights charity, Stonewall, for a journalism award. But once the trans activist Inquisition heard of this, Stonewall came under pressure to de-nominate me. To their credit, the organizers refused to capitulate. And on gala’s eve, a crowd of 200 protesters duly turned up to bleat,“Bindel the Bigot.”

I didn’t win that night. And my detractors, believing that they’d swayed the vote (which perhaps they did), gained confidence. I was subsequently “de-platformed” (avant la lettre) by the National Union of Students (NUS). Whenever I was invited to speak—whether about rape, trafficking, child sex abuse or domestic homicide—I often was greeted by a group of students screaming at me about my alleged “bigotry.”

But back to 2018 and the Truth to Power debacle.

...
“[Bindel’s] work, together with many other anti-trans activists—or TERFs [a term of abuse that denotes ‘Trans-Exclusive Radical Feminists’]—has had impact on the well-being of our communities and friends, but also on systemic discrimination of trans folk in the U.K.,” reads the statement, echoing the now-common claim that even the most respectable forms of debate on this subject should be equated with violence and persecution. “The current daily violent climate against transgender communities—and indeed public and governmental consultations on if trans people should even be ‘allowed’ basic rights—is abhorrent and goes in line with her work and ethos.”..."

 

[CheapCharlie]

 

[Leeda]

transgender is always fine unless it happens in the realm of physical sports..
drive that bus people.. muscles are different with different physiology...

 

[Leeda]

authority is watching loser is saying no dice no ... okay...

 

[Rob]

W

I've read that after a period of hormonal intervention, a trans woman will have lost the innate physical advantages she had when she was a man. If that's measurably true, then it is not unreasonable to have such measurements (like hormone levels) as an input into whether a trans woman (who is part way to reaching their desired level of physical "womanness"), is eligible to compete as a woman.

The entire issue comes down to whether this actually *is* measurably true, and to what extent does it become measurably true. Mouncey as an example - she's 6 foot 2 and clearly her height is an advantage in many sports. How much of this physical advantage is due to her living a vast majority of her life with high testosterone levels? Having low testosterone levels now isn't going to reduce her height - she will never lose all of her innate physical advantages. So where do you draw the line?

 

[fleabitten]

The fact that female to male athletes don't have the same level of success against men as male to female athletes tend to have against females seems to be pretty good evidence that there's an unfair advantage.

 

[kickazz]

Yeah just read a feature in The Economist about this. Basically hormone levels are used as the measure, but being born, and more importantly, going through puberty as a male results in bigger heart and lungs, and bigger body frame in general.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Man, 69, applies to legally change age because he ‘identifies as 20 years younger’

“You can change your name. You can change your gender. Why not your age? Nowhere are you so discriminated against as with your age,” Mr Ratelband told Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...elband-court-arnhmen-gelderland-a8623421.html

What if he identified as a 9 year old girl? Would it be discrimination to not allow him to attend primary school and use the girl's toilets?

 

[skybeau]

As someone living in Scotland, I think I find this a bit disappointing.

https://www.theguardian.com/educati...nd-first-country-approve-lgbti-school-lessons

Is it really going to be appropriate to teach kids this? Kind of feels like biology is taking a backseat to push an ideology that it's possible people can change sex.

What are you so afraid will happen?

 

[maryjames]

She the man

 

[RobbieK]

As someone living in Scotland, I think I find this a bit disappointing.

https://www.theguardian.com/educati...nd-first-country-approve-lgbti-school-lessons

Is it really going to be appropriate to teach kids this? Kind of feels like biology is taking a backseat to push an ideology that it's possible people can change sex.

We teach kids the history of racism and the efforts that have been made over time to combat it. We teach kids the history of sexism and the efforts that have been made over time to combat it. We teach kids that the colour of someone's skin is no reason to prejudge them or bully them. We teach kids that men and women have equal rights.

So why shouldn't we teach kids the history of prejudice against people because of their sexual orientation and the efforts that have been made over time to combat it and work towards eradicating bullying of LGBTI kids?

It is all part of the same trajectory of human society progressively rejecting unjustifiable and unreasonable historical prejudices. If kids are to be educated and socialised to function in today's society they need to understand this history and how it has shaped the present. They need to understand that, rightfully, these prejudices are just not acceptable any more and that it is their responsibility as citizens in a free country not to perpetuate them.

No one is saying you can change sex. Sex and gender aren't the same thing.

 

[kickazz]

We teach kids the history of racism and the efforts that have been made over time to combat it. We teach kids the history of sexism and the efforts that have been made over time to combat it. We teach kids that the colour of someone's skin is no reason to prejudge them or bully them. We teach kids that men and women have equal rights.

So why shouldn't we teach kids the history of prejudice against people because of their sexual orientation and the efforts that have been made over time to combat it and work towards eradicating bullying of LGBTI kids?

It is all part of the same trajectory of human society progressively rejecting unjustifiable and unreasonable historical prejudices. If kids are to be educated and socialised to function in today's society they need to understand this history and how it has shaped the present. They need to understand that, rightfully, these prejudices are just not acceptable any more and that it is their responsibility as citizens in a free country not to perpetuate them.

No one is saying you can change sex. Sex and gender aren't the same thing.

I think there are aspects that can be criticised, specifically surrounding the reinforcing of gender stereotypes. Stuff like boys being competetive and girls being gossipy. I mean come on I thought we left all that behind. I think it's more important to teach young people that it's ok to "go against type".

 

[RobbieK]

I think there are aspects that can be criticised, specifically surrounding the reinforcing of gender stereotypes. Stuff like boys being competetive and girls being gossipy. I mean come on I thought we left all that behind. I think it's more important to teach young people that it's ok to "go against type".

I'm not sure if that was intended to be in disagreement to what I just said or with the proposed program?

I don't think it is. I think the education system should empower young people by giving them the skills and knowledge to make decisions about what they want to do with their lives, regardless of race, gender, religion, sexuality or whatever other identity they may have.

In order to fully grasp that young people need to be taught how society has not always been like that, that in the past many people were limited in their opportunities due to unreasonable prejudices, that there are still vestiges of those prejudices active in society today and that we should not accept or perpetuate that.

In order to teach young people that we are all humans beings, worthy of respect and dignity on account of that humanity, it needs to be taught that at various times and places, including here and now, people have used different identities as a basis for division and oppression. At times that involves highlighting the oppression of people from particular identities.

 

[its free real estate]

As someone living in Scotland, I think I find this a bit disappointing.

https://www.theguardian.com/educati...nd-first-country-approve-lgbti-school-lessons

Is it really going to be appropriate to teach kids this? Kind of feels like biology is taking a backseat to push an ideology that it's possible people can change sex.

Scotland has regularly been ranked as one of the best countries in Europe in relation to legal protections for LGBTI people, despite the fact that it decriminalised homosexuality in 1980, 13 years later than England and Wales.​

It’s weird how the progressive scorecard works. Being 13 years later in decriminalising something that another is still a knock against a country and worth noting, even though that was 38 years ago.

You can never be pure, you can never be clean, you must ritually debase yourself on the alter of progressivism.

 

[its free real estate]

I'm not sure if that was intended to be in disagreement to what I just said or with the proposed program?

I don't think it is. I think the education system should empower young people by giving them the skills and knowledge to make decisions about what they want to do with their lives, regardless of race, gender, religion, sexuality or whatever other identity they may have.

In order to fully grasp that young people need to be taught how society has not always been like that, that in the past many people were limited in their opportunities due to unreasonable prejudices, that there are still vestiges of those prejudices active in society today and that we should not accept or perpetuate that.

In order to teach young people that we are all humans beings, worthy of respect and dignity on account of that humanity, it needs to be taught that at various times and places, including here and now, people have used different identities as a basis for division and oppression. At times that involves highlighting the oppression of people from particular identities.

Is it any wonder kids have to go to uni to be meaningfully educated? Those first 13 years of schooling are mostly a waste of time!

And with all this useless feelgoodery, kids aren’t even happier now, depression rates among teens are through the roof.

 

[RobbieK]

Is it any wonder kids have to go to uni to be meaningfully educated? Those first 13 years of schooling are mostly a waste of time!

And with all this useless feelgoodery, kids aren’t even happier now, depression rates among teens are through the roof.

Feelgoodery? It is history, science, philosophy, civics and politics.

 

[its free real estate]

Feelgoodery? It is history, science, philosophy, civics and politics.

No, it isn’t. And you know it isn’t.

 

[Bollox]

In order to fully grasp that young people need to be taught how society has not always been like that, that in the past many people were limited in their opportunities due to unreasonable prejudices, that there are still vestiges of those prejudices active in society today and that we should not accept or perpetuate that.

In order to teach young people that we are all humans beings, worthy of respect and dignity on account of that humanity, it needs to be taught that at various times and places, including here and now, people have used different identities as a basis for division and oppression. At times that involves highlighting the oppression of people from particular identities.

Gosh thats wonderful engineering.
I'm all for it.

On that basis, i'll assume you will be rallying around and supporting the engineering of minors regarding ex-cons as well. Afterall there are far more of those poor downtrodden types than queers who like to shun nature, play dress ups or experiment with their bodyparts.

They get such a bad deal those ex-cons. Downtrodden by society, outcast, shamed, discriminated against in a totally undeserved manner.

Surely they have all served their time or are currently serving it, and we need to educate our young folk into accepting them as equals and without prejudice. Its time we engineered our minors to stop being bigoted little sumpremacists...growing up with such a bigoted shocking view of a decent proportion of reformed society. A view that all decent members of society hold.

Instead of improving their maths, maybe we could engineer their minds with role play or lessons. Get the kids to play whilst dressed up in stilleto's and a long brown raincoat. They could pretend to be paedophiles and act out the horrible injustices and prejudices of this bad bad world. Better still get a few paedophiles and sideshow freaks to visit class, or maybe a school excursion to a couple of jails.

I cant wait for little jimmy to come home with an A+ and participation medal in engineered fantasy roleplay. No kid deserves the drudgery of maths when they can learn how to be nice little orwellians.

 

[kickazz]

I'm not sure if that was intended to be in disagreement to what I just said or with the proposed program?

I don't think it is. I think the education system should empower young people by giving them the skills and knowledge to make decisions about what they want to do with their lives, regardless of race, gender, religion, sexuality or whatever other identity they may have.

In order to fully grasp that young people need to be taught how society has not always been like that, that in the past many people were limited in their opportunities due to unreasonable prejudices, that there are still vestiges of those prejudices active in society today and that we should not accept or perpetuate that.

In order to teach young people that we are all humans beings, worthy of respect and dignity on account of that humanity, it needs to be taught that at various times and places, including here and now, people have used different identities as a basis for division and oppression. At times that involves highlighting the oppression of people from particular identities.

Yeah I agree with all of that, especially the empowerment via knowledge. I'll have to fish out the quote, but The Economist recently had a good article on this topic and mentioned something about children (in UK I think) being taught to consider not only their biology when contemplating their gender, but also traits such as competetiveness and liking for gossip, building things and caring for others.

Is someone wanting to change from their natal gender in order to feel more at peace in the world, with all its categorisations, stereotypes and prejudices actually empowered though, or merely pragmatically acquiescing to society's categorisations, stereotypes and prejudices?

Even if the latter is true, who can blame them? It's easier to change yourself than change the world.

 

[Bollox]

Yeah I agree with all of that, especially the empowerment via knowledge. I'll have to fish out the quote, but The Economist recently had a good article on this topic and mentioned something about children (in UK I think) being taught to consider not only their biology when contemplating their gender, but also traits such as competetiveness and liking for gossip, building things and caring for others.

Is someone wanting to change from their natal gender in order to feel more at peace in the world, with all its categorisations, stereotypes and prejudices actually empowered though, or merely pragmatically acquiescing to society's categorisations, stereotypes and prejudices?

Even if the latter is true, who can blame them? It's easier to change yourself than change the world.

You could have shortened it to...

"engineer kids minds to believe its ok to be an unnatural freak"

The alternative of course is to do nothing.
But that would equate to...

"We value individuality. Dont presume to tell kids how they should think, and allow them to grow up as an individual so they think anyway they like, and live any life they choose "

 

[RobbieK]

Gosh thats wonderful engineering.
I'm all for it.

On that basis, i'll assume you will be rallying around and supporting the engineering of minors regarding ex-cons as well. Afterall there are far more of those poor downtrodden types than queers who like to shun nature, play dress ups or experiment with their bodyparts.

They get such a bad deal those ex-cons. Downtrodden by society, outcast, shamed, discriminated against in a totally undeserved manner.

Surely they have all served their time or are currently serving it, and we need to educate our young folk into accepting them as equals and without prejudice. Its time we engineered our minors to stop being bigoted little sumpremacists...growing up with such a bigoted shocking view of a decent proportion of reformed society. A view that all decent members of society hold.

Instead of improving their maths, maybe we could engineer their minds with role play or lessons. Get the kids to play whilst dressed up in stilleto's and a long brown raincoat. They could pretend to be paedophiles and act out the horrible injustices and prejudices of this bad bad world. Better still get a few paedophiles and sideshow freaks to visit class, or maybe a school excursion to a couple of jails.

I cant wait for little jimmy to come home with an A+ and participation medal in engineered fantasy roleplay. No kid deserves the drudgery of maths when they can learn how to be nice little orwellians.

Yes, our education is "engineering". It is about establishing the priorities and values of our society, preparing young people to function in our modern, liberal, capitalist society. It prepares them to work in the 21st century. Is that Orwellian?

I don't see any indication that maths classes are being replaced to accommodate students learning about the history of human rights struggles. I'm not sure why you are suggesting that is what would happen. I'm also not sure what paedophilia has to do with any of this. Can you help me out there?

As for people rehabilitated after committing crimes, I certainly think that we should not be prejudiced against them. I strongly believe that the main priority of our criminal justice system should be rehabilitation wherever possible so that people convicted of crimes are able to return to society and make a positive contribution. I think we definitely need to do more as a society to make that re-entry in to society welcoming.

It is hard not to feel like your post reflects much worse on you than it does on a sideshow freak queer like me.

 

[RobbieK]

You could have shortened it to...

"engineer kids minds to believe its ok to be an unnatural freak"

The alternative of course is to do nothing.
But that would equate to...

"We value individuality. Dont presume to tell kids how they should think, and allow them to grow up as an individual so they think anyway they like, and live any life they choose "

Unless they happen to be an "unnatural freak", of course, yeah?

 

[its free real estate]

Yes, our education is "engineering". It is about establishing the priorities and values of our society, preparing young people to function in our modern, liberal, capitalist society. It prepares them to work in the 21st century.

How does this do that?

This kind of social good, activist education has been taught for a few decades now. This has been accompanied by what’s often reported on as a general decline in skills and education of people in the primary and secondary school system. The two are never connected, the latter is usually cited as a motivator for more resources, rarely a critique that the education system has its priorities all wrong.

You say it isn’t replacing maths, but advanced maths skills are in serious decline. Something is failing in the education system, and the focus should be on fixing a critical skill, not progressive activism.