Transgender

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raskolnikov

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You don't get to ask someone a question wearing cricket pads then deal with their response with a hockey stick.

Remove the police force and see how long before chaos and anarchy set in. I'd also be interested to see how many kids could be bothered to educate themselves without teachers. It was a troll reply and got the response it deserved.
 

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Here we see people caring about women's sport in the same manner they care about women's rights in Islamic countries, ie not all but they'll make a political point about it anyway.
 

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Remove the police force and see how long before chaos and anarchy set in. I'd also be interested to see how many kids could be bothered to educate themselves without teachers. It was a troll reply and got the response it deserved.
The real measure of the value of those people in the professions is whether they would do it for less or no money, since performing a service to society for money is something many, many people do and without for example your bin collector there would be a similar collapse of social expectations.

Indulging your diversion a bit, it's important to note that on the whole police don't stop crimes occurring, they show up after most crimes have taken place. We can have a debate on the intrinsic morality of human kind compared to the fear of the higher power motivations of character but as per my previous comment, there actually isn't anything stopping you doing anything you want already - so why isn't everyone looting, raping, murdering?

Transgender people are mentally ill and although I firmly believe an adult should be allowed to do whatever they want with themselves to live their life as best as they see fit, I don't think this period will be looked back on with pride and I don't think children should be exposed to this world until they are adults.

What is the plan for the world records in the women's events that are held by biological men in the future?
 

TimmeT

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That is being reductionist, defining people by their reproductive capacity and tbh quite offensive. People contribute a lot more to society than how many babies they spit out.

I've never really understood why people are so obsessed with what others do to their bodies. What business is it of yours?
Whe ths has a direct effect on others then there is a right for others to comment on it and raise their concerns. Hence why people are commenting on the ability for transsexual athletes to compete in women's events
 

raskolnikov

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The real measure of the value of those people in the professions is whether they would do it for less or no money, since performing a service to society for money is something many, many people do and without for example your bin collector there would be a similar collapse of social expectations.

Indulging your diversion a bit, it's important to note that on the whole police don't stop crimes occurring, they show up after most crimes have taken place. We can have a debate on the intrinsic morality of human kind compared to the fear of the higher power motivations of character but as per my previous comment, there actually isn't anything stopping you doing anything you want already - so why isn't everyone looting, raping, murdering?

Transgender people are mentally ill and although I firmly believe an adult should be allowed to do whatever they want with themselves to live their life as best as they see fit, I don't think this period will be looked back on with pride and I don't think children should be exposed to this world until they are adults.

What is the plan for the world records in the women's events that are held by biological men in the future?
It is irrelevant whether they are earning money for it or not. They are still performing a service for society. Money is a necessity.

Also, whether the police show up before, during or after the crime, the fact that someone who commits a crime knows that there is a good chance they are going to get caught is a major deterrent.

Even if we take your opinion that transgender people are mentally ill as fact? So what? There are a lot of disabilities and mental illnesses these days which society caters for. Why single transgender people out as any different?
 

Tayl0r

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Even if we take your opinion that transgender people are mentally ill as fact? So what? There are a lot of disabilities and mental illnesses these days which society caters for. Why single transgender people out as any different?
The reason why is because if you don't clap and cheer someone as being the gender they have decided they are then you're lumped with the bigots and the homophobes. There are people who are sure to their core that they are an amputee in a fully able body. These people are forced to drop their legs into dry ice baths to kill the limb and require an amputation to survive, doctors won't give these people an amputation as a procedure of convenience to help them live how they feel more aligns with their personal self image.

Those people are agreed to be mentally ill.
 

Lebbo73

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That is being reductionist, defining people by their reproductive capacity and tbh quite offensive. People contribute a lot more to society than how many babies they spit out.

I've never really understood why people are so obsessed with what others do to their bodies. What business is it of yours?
Ok mate
 

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Even if we take your opinion that transgender people are mentally ill as fact? So what? There are a lot of disabilities and mental illnesses these days which society caters for. Why single transgender people out as any different?
People with Down’s syndrome don’t insist on being something they’re not.
 

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kirsti

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The reason why is because if you don't clap and cheer someone as being the gender they have decided they are then you're lumped with the bigots and the homophobes. There are people who are sure to their core that they are an amputee in a fully able body. These people are forced to drop their legs into dry ice baths to kill the limb and require an amputation to survive, doctors won't give these people an amputation as a procedure of convenience to help them live how they feel more aligns with their personal self image.

Those people are agreed to be mentally ill.
Being transgender is no longer classified as a mental illness by the World Health Organization – a key sign of progress for an often-marginalized community.

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/717758002


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Geelong_Sicko

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Is this thread about transgender in general or transgender in SPORT specifically? Because as far as fairness in sports goes, that's the only blade 'those against' have to cut into the issue. Do transgender men, after a set period of transition including removal/transformation of the penis and continuous hormone treatment, still have a 100% clear-cut advantage over cis-gendered women?

That's the only blade 'they' can cut with.

And on that, more study is needed.
 

Tayl0r

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Is this thread about transgender in general or transgender in SPORT specifically? Because as far as fairness in sports goes, that's the only blade 'those against' have to cut into the issue. Do transgender men, after a set period of transition including removal/transformation of the penis and continuous hormone treatment, still have a 100% clear-cut advantage over cis-gendered women?

That's the only blade 'they' can cut with.

And on that, more study is needed.
It's also the only one that matters as long as there isn't a culture of shaming someone who misgenders a person without any ill intentions since adults should be able to live their lives however they want to as long as it's not hurting anyone else.
 

Geelong_Sicko

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It's also the only one that matters as long as there isn't a culture of shaming someone who misgenders a person without any ill intentions since adults should be able to live their lives however they want to as long as it's not hurting anyone else.
True. Mistakes will ALWAYS happen. Some people are slower to adapt to change on the fly. Many other areas of my life are moderately f*cked but I've been blessed in that way. Most cultural changes are 'Right, fair enough' in my world as long as its not hurting anyone else. You phrased it well enough.

Others, they see change and they can't get used to it. Just can't get their heads around it. It lends itself to an innate conservatism not through political choice but through a mental inflexibility and these are the unfortunates who get labeled bigots, homophobes and worse.

I get it that they're not motivated by actual hatred when they misgender someone. They're just slow in adapting to the change. In that I think there needs to be understanding on all sides.
 

Geelong_Sicko

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Thread title should just be changed to mentally unwell/gender dysphoria.
Like it or not, some are unhappy with their birth gender and will endeavour to change this and be legally recognised for it. You might be uncomfortable with this. You might not understand the reasoning. You might even be the minority who actively hates everyone and every thing that doesn't fit into your own world view.

It's not going to change a thing. People will still be unhappy with their birth gender. They will change this in order to better their own lives. You can either understand that it doesn't affect you in the slightest and carry on with your own life or you can moan about it and it will have no affect anyway.
 

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My three year old son asked at what age he would turn into a squid, and I said never. Then he asked "what animal will I become" and when I said "you will always be a person" he looked like he was about to cry. If this continued into adulthood I would have him committed. But maybe by then there will be surgery for it, and he can have ten tentacles and squirt ink.
 

Geelong_Sicko

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My three year old son asked at what age he would turn into a squid, and I said never. Then he asked "what animal will I become" and when I said "you will always be a person" he looked like he was about to cry. If this continued into adulthood I would have him committed. But maybe by then there will be surgery for it, and he can have ten tentacles and squirt ink.
Honest question - if your son was (hypothetically) displaying all the early signs of gender dysphoria and this continued until he was of an age where he could legally make his own decisions. What if he wanted to fully transition and become female? Coprrect Correct me if I'm wrong but I gather you'd be against early action such as puberty blockers and the like - but what would you do if he wanted to transition?

Would you disown him? Would you tell him that though you disapprove in the end he has his own life to lead however he sees fit as whoever he sees fit?

What would you do?
 
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Honest question - if your son was (hypothetically) displaying all the early signs of gender dysphoria and this continued until he was of an age where he could legally make his own decisions. What if he wanted to fully transition and become female? Coprrect Correct me if I'm wrong but I gather you'd be against early action such as puberty blockers and the like - but what would you do if he wanted to transition?

Would you disown him? Would you tell him that though you disapprove in the end he has his own life to lead however he sees fit as whoever he sees fit?

What would you do?
I’d slip him T in his breakfast cereal to snap him out of it.

The key part is choosing a sane partner, as mental illness is hereditary.
 

jason pm

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Honest question - if your son was (hypothetically) displaying all the early signs of gender dysphoria and this continued until he was of an age where he could legally make his own decisions. What if he wanted to fully transition and become female? Coprrect Correct me if I'm wrong but I gather you'd be against early action such as puberty blockers and the like - but what would you do if he wanted to transition?

Would you disown him? Would you tell him that though you disapprove in the end he has his own life to lead however he sees fit as whoever he sees fit?

What would you do?
Can you ever transition fully to another gender? ie. xx to xy or vice versa and what percentage of humans when born are neither? A quick google search came up with .05% are Hermaphrodites. What about bone density/hip structure/muscle mass/brain functions.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/201...-significant-differences-brains-men-and-women

The only area of human activity I have a problem with in the transgender space is former males who have gone through puberty and transition and then compete in female athletic/sporting activities, it is plainly an unfair advantage in most sports.
 

kirsti

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Can you ever transition fully to another gender? ie. xx to xy or vice versa and what percentage of humans when born are neither? A quick google search came up with .05% are Hermaphrodites. What about bone density/hip structure/muscle mass/brain functions.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/201...-significant-differences-brains-men-and-women

The only area of human activity I have a problem with in the transgender space is former males who have gone through puberty and transition and then compete in female athletic/sporting activities, it is plainly an unfair advantage in most sports.
There is no other story that incites more hate then a story about a transgender person participating in sport, with the exception of stories relating to transgender bathroom use or in President Trumps World his hate for transgender people serving in the military.

Let’s remove the words Transgender, Laurel, Hannah or Mack Beggs out of the conversation for a minute and let’s look at some of the medical consequences that occur when an XY male suffers low levels of testosterone;
When a man has low testosterone, or hypogonadism, he may experience:
-Reduced sex drive
-Erectile dysfunction
-Low sperm count
-Enlarged or swollen breast tissue

Over time, these symptoms may develop in the following ways:
-Loss of body hair
-Loss of muscle bulk
-Loss of strength
-Increased body fat

Chronic, or ongoing, low testosterone may lead to osteoporosis, mood swings, reduced energy, and testicular shrinkage. None of these medical consequences are performance enhancing. No castrated XY male has ever broken a world record or even competed at the elite level of sports.

There is no doubt that XY Males on average have an advantage in strength speed and endurance. Just looking at all sports world sporting records clearly shows this to be true. Research has found the difference between men’s and women’s world records as being 10 to 12%.

The medications administered to transitioning XY females are powerful drugs the same drugs used to chemically castrate sex offenders the same drugs used to chemically castrate prostate cancer sufferers.

This treatment changed my body from a 100kg former dual international male athletes body into a 57kg size 6 transitioned woman’s body with my body suffering permanent severe post menopausal symptoms including complete muscle atrophy and over 200 medical complications in my body every day of my life.

At this point, it is important to point out that testosterone is not exclusively a male hormone. It is produced by both males and females in the testicles and ovaries (and also in the adrenal glands), however males need to produce it in higher quantities as they have XY androgen receptors. XX androgen receptors are highly sensitive to testosterone, requiring much less testosterone to equate the same level of health. However, both male and female elite athletes also produce testosterone in higher quantities than the ‘normal’ population, and there is also a significant amount of overlap between testosterone levels in male and female elite athletes.

The maintenance of endogenous testosterone levels is essential to basic health in both men and women. An XY male who transitions to XY female has had their major source of endogenous testosterone (the testicles) taken away, so needs to take synthetic testosterone in order to maintain basic health.

The US University of Rochester’s online medical library states that the normal ‘male’ range for testosterone is between 9.7nmol/l and 38.1nmol/l; and between 0.5nmol/l and 2.4nmol/l for ‘females’. The US government’s National Library of Medicine agrees with the University of Rochester’s ranges with regards to ‘women’, but puts normal ‘male’ levels at between 10.4 nmol/l and 34.7nmol/l. So individuals with XY chromosomes need a higher level of testosterone those with XX chromosomes to maintain basic health, due to their androgen receptor response.

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/ency...ontentTypeID=167&ContentID=testosterone_total

As these analyses show, these levels can vary with age,
https://www.healthline.com/health/low-testosterone/testosterone-levels-by-age#Adolescence3 but also due to occupation.

A 2014 study, ‘Endocrine profiles in 693 elite athletes in the post-competition setting’, found that 16.5% of the ‘male’ athletes had low testosterone levels, and 13.7% of the ‘females’ had high testosterone levels, ‘with complete overlap between the sexes’.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24593684/

The report concluded: ‘The IOC definition of a woman as one who has a ‘normal’ testosterone level is untenable’. In other words, elite athletes have testosterone levels that differ widely from those that might be considered ‘normal’ in the general public population.

We know that the testosterone levels of high-performance female athletes go up from years of competing that this makes conception during competition or after retirement very hard, until those bodies come back to their natural state to be able to conceive a child, this is very common.

We also know that an XY chromosome body takes six to eight times the level of testosterone to equate the same levels of ‘health’ as somebody who is XX. This is completely separate to the body’s sex.

The problem has been that sport failed to realise that XY women continue to need XY levels of testosterone in order to maintain basic health following transition. Instead, it required XY females to peg their testosterone levels to the much lower XX female levels, due to the myth that XY females would enjoy a performance advantage due to their extra endogenous testosterone.

In effect, sport was blinded by its history with exogenous testosterone, which has historically been used to enhance performance. This requirement to drop their natural, endogenous testosterone levels to XX female levels is what has physically harmed myself and others.

This is where everybody got it wrong and continues to get it wrong. We are the only athletes in the world that can medically illustrate, physiologically, how the body breaks down over time and what happens to the human physiology when testosterone values get down to a certain level or is removed, and the body is no longer able to generate any hormones. For all other athletes that have been discussed in this space, their testosterone levels are their ‘normal’, and they are healthy.


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