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Malifice

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Yeah, society moves on. Values it once assigned to certain material things fall out of use in favour of others.
Weirdly he notes this is the case, but denies it's socially constructed.

It's as if he views the value we socially place on an object (say the price of a car) as a fundamental property of that object.

Like; his position seems to be that if human beings were suddenly made extinct, an alien species that discovered that car would give it the same value.

The object only has value because we say it does. Not due to some kind of inherent quality of the object that exists independent of our social agreement as to that value.
 

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I said as much here:



About 3 hours ago.

Just to break it down:
  1. There are biological differences between the sexes (male and female).
  2. Those biological differences influence behaviour.
  3. How those differences are expressed is socially constructed, and further vary by context and individual.
Point 1 and 2 I agree with 100%.

Point 3 I agree that some of those differences are expressed due to social construction but definitely will never agree that all are . If you are expressing yourself in certain ways because of personality traits biologically aligned to your gender I cannot fathom how it can be considered social construction .
 

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Weirdly he notes this is the case, but denies it's socially constructed.

It's as if he views the value we socially place on an object (say the price of a car) as a fundamental property of that object.

Like; his position seems to be that if human beings were suddenly made extinct, an alien species that discovered that car would give it the same value.

The object only has value because we say it does. Not due to some kind of inherent quality of the object that exists independent of our social agreement as to that value.
No, I am saying that the qualities are not fundamental, and they don't need to be, they just need to be relative to each other.
 

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Like; his position seems to be that if human beings were suddenly made extinct, an alien species that discovered that car would give it the same value.
It's sort of weird how archaelogists looking at Paleolithic grave sites can quickly tell whether a body is male or female simply based on what they are buried with. How do they do that if it is all constructed!
 

Geelong_Sicko

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But that doesn't mean there isn't an intrinsic concept of femininity, universal to all cultures, regardless of expression. Expression is essentially determined by the available materials, really. "Pink" wasn't a girls colour 200 years ago, because pink wasn't really a colour anyone could wear anyway. For most people it was a choice between blue and black.

Mauve was the first mass produced synthetic dye, and it wasn't invented until 1859.
There are definite biological differences, but those differences were magnified out of all proportion in many ways. We created societal structures around biological difference. Heirarchies developed that shut women out.

Still to this day there is that perception that a bloke who roots around is a stud to be deified while a woman who roots around is a slut to be shamed. Why is that? It's a perception initially borne from biological difference, but our intellect magnified it into an artificial construct housing the 'female role' in society.

The seed was biological for sure. What grew after?
 

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There are definite biological differences, but those differences were magnified out of all proportion in many ways. We created societal structures around biological difference. Heirarchies developed that shut women out.

Still to this day there is that perception that a bloke who roots around is a stud to be deified while a woman who roots around is a slut to be shamed. Why is that? It's a perception initially borne from biological difference, but our intellect magnified it into an artificial construct housing the 'female role' in society.

The seed was biological for sure. What grew after?
It grew in many ways. From 5,000 BCE:

While there were many elite burials uncovered, there was one in particular that stood out amongst the rest – grave 43. Inside grave 43, archaeologists uncovered the remains of a high status male who appears to have been a ruler/leader of some kind – more gold was found within this burial than in the entire rest of the world in that period. The male was buried with a scepter – a symbol of high rank or spiritual power – and wore a sheath of solid gold over his penis.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/anc...and-wealthiest-grave-5th-millennium-bc-002798

A coupla weeks ago:

A billionaire diamond trader has died during a penis enlargement operation at a posh Parisian clinic, it was reported.​
Ehud Arye Laniado died at the age of 65 in the clinic of an unnamed plastic surgeon on the Avenue des Champs-Elysees in the French capital Paris.​
According to local media, complications during surgery proved fatal for the Belgian-Israeli dual national and he suffered a heart attack when a substance was injected into his penis.​

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...y/news-story/6837315b4146e2bfb9e2a6da21423340

It's just a social construct!
 

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Snake_Baker

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That's fashion, as dictated by the social mores of the era. I do note the mens' swimwear ends above the knee and the womens' below it, but that's a societal impose on the two genders.
.............fashion, as dictated by the social mores of the era, with the intention of inducing sexual attraction (biology)

The underlying biology dictates that "fashion" within the social constraints of that period. The biology is the trigger.
 

Geelong_Sicko

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It grew in many ways. From 5,000 BCE:

While there were many elite burials uncovered, there was one in particular that stood out amongst the rest – grave 43. Inside grave 43, archaeologists uncovered the remains of a high status male who appears to have been a ruler/leader of some kind – more gold was found within this burial than in the entire rest of the world in that period. The male was buried with a scepter – a symbol of high rank or spiritual power – and wore a sheath of solid gold over his penis.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/anc...and-wealthiest-grave-5th-millennium-bc-002798

A coupla weeks ago:

A billionaire diamond trader has died during a penis enlargement operation at a posh Parisian clinic, it was reported.​
Ehud Arye Laniado died at the age of 65 in the clinic of an unnamed plastic surgeon on the Avenue des Champs-Elysees in the French capital Paris.​
According to local media, complications during surgery proved fatal for the Belgian-Israeli dual national and he suffered a heart attack when a substance was injected into his penis.​

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...y/news-story/6837315b4146e2bfb9e2a6da21423340

It's just a social construct!
Phallic fetishisation is a thing. A thing brought on by societal exaggeration of male biology.
 

twotooto

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Humans being attracted to the opposite sex is intrinsically linked to the human race's continuing existence, amongst other things. It is biological. It is not a social construct.

Humans making themselves more attractive to the opposite sex is also biological. It is also not a social construct.

How humans go about making themselves attractive and the manner in which they make themselves more attractive could manifest itself due to, and be influenced by, social norms and standards, or, if you like, social constructs.
 

Geelong_Sicko

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Humans being attracted to the opposite sex is intrinsically linked to the human race's continuing existence, amongst other things. It is biological. It is not a social construct.

Humans making themselves more attractive to the opposite sex is also biological. It is also not a social construct.

How humans go about making themselves attractive and the manner in which they make themselves more attractive could manifest itself due to social norms, or, if you like, social constructs.
And the very values we assign males and females with respect to one another is also a social construct. And going further by looping back to the thread premise, the values of those 'in between' or transitioning between the sexes. I think we are all human, ergo we all have the same base value. A transgendered person is not worth less or more than me in the eyes of society and never should be. Ditto females. Ditto everyone else.

EDIT: I did not mean to infer that twotooto held the belief that females or transgender were worth any less than males. My mistake and I apologise for any misunderstanding.
 
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Malifice

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It's sort of weird how archaelogists looking at Paleolithic grave sites can quickly tell whether a body is male or female simply based on what they are buried with. How do they do that if it is all constructed!
Are you genuinely that stupid? Are you arguing that human burial rites are not socially constructed?

AFL is socially constructed, as is NRL. I can tell the two things apart by looking at the type ball they both use. Presuming I know the social construction of what that football represents of course.

If Humans became extinct, and what that ball represents became extinct with us, then how could they tell the value of that ball or what it represents? Its a stitched together bit of animal hide.

I can dig up a grave now of a child that died in the last 30 years, and if the child is buried with a pink dress and barbie dolls, I can be fairly confident it was a girl, because I understand that in the context of that childs death (culture and historical period), at that time and place we socially constructed 'pink dresses and barbie dolls' to mean 'girl'.

I'm finding this thread hilarious. You're singling out socially constructed things in an effort to falsify social construction.
 

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Are you genuinely that stupid? Are you arguing that human burial rites are not socially constructed?

AFL is socially constructed, as is NRL. I can tell the two things apart by looking at the type ball they both use. Presuming I know the social construction of what that football represents of course.

If Humans became extinct, and what that ball represents became extinct with us, then how could they tell the value of that ball or what it represents? Its a stitched together bit of animal hide.

I can dig up a grave now of a child that died in the last 30 years, and if the child is buried with a pink dress and barbie dolls, I can be fairly confident it was a girl, because I understand that in the context of that childs death (culture and historical period), at that time and place we socially constructed 'pink dresses and barbie dolls' to mean 'girl'.

I'm finding this thread hilarious. You're singling out socially constructed things in an effort to falsify social construction.
At what point in human (pre-)history did things stop being biological and start being socially constructed? If they are exhibited in burial rites of 10,000 years ago then what does this tell us? Tribes of no more than 50 people had socially constructed gender roles? Please.
 

Malifice

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No, I am saying that the qualities are not fundamental, and they don't need to be, they just need to be relative to each other.
If the qualities are not fundamental properties of the object itself (such as mass, or size) then they're socially constructed.

Gold has mass. Gravity exists independent of human social existence right. However the value of gold (in terms of dollars) is a socially constructed property of gold. It has no meaning outside of human social construction and agreement. It's not some inherent property of gold.
 

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If the qualities are not fundamental properties of the object itself (such as mass, or size) then they're socially constructed.

Gold has mass. Gravity exists independent of human social existence right. However the value of gold (in terms of dollars) is a socially constructed property of gold. It has no meaning outside of human social construction and agreement. It's not some inherent property of gold.
Gold is rare in the earths crust, highly ductile, malleable, and does not corrode. And it is the only yellow metal. Its value absolutely depends on its innate physical properties.
 

Malifice

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At what point in human (pre-)history did things stop being biological and start being socially constructed? If they are exhibited in burial rites of 10,000 years ago then what does this tell us?
Huh?

Lions prides are social groups with their own social rules. There is an Alpha, and everyone knows who it is. Ditto wolf packs, and ditto ants nests, which have their own social rules. Ditto a flock of birds.

You do get that right? Homo Sapiens are incredibly socially complex creatures, but we arent the only creatures that exhibit social rules and norms and social behaviors.
 

Malifice

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Gold is rare in the earths crust, highly ductile, malleable, and does not corrode. And it is the only yellow metal. Its value absolutely depends on its innate physical properties.
Only to homo sapiens because we attribute that value to it within the rules of our society.

What value does gold have to a wolf or a cat?
 

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Huh?

Lions prides are social groups with their own social rules. There is an Alpha, and everyone knows who it is. Ditto wolf packs, and ditto ants nests, which have their own social rules. Ditto a flock of birds.

You do get that right? Homo Sapiens are incredibly socially complex creatures, but we arent the only creatures that exhibit social rules and norms and social behaviors.
So ants nests, with queens, drones and workers, are socially constructed?
 
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