Transgender

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Norm Smith Medallist
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The wolf doesnt understand the atomic weight of gold, but that doesnt stop mass from existing. If human beings vanished suddenly, and a hunk of gold fell on that wolfs head, the wolfs lack of knowledge about the atomic weight of the gold is neither here nor there from the wolf getting hurt. The atomic weight of gold is a constant, that exists independent of human agreement as to it's existence.

It's like a 10 dollar note (even one in a currency system based on gold). The note itself is comprised of polymer, and has an atomic weight. Those things are true regardless of any other fact. An advanced alien species with no knowledge of human culture can pick up a 10 dollar note and discover those things regardless of its understanding of human culture and social construction.

The value we place on that note (linked to the value we place on a finite atomic material, i.e gold) however is socially constructed. You cant study the note and decipher that fact unless you understand the social construction of the note itself (what it represents to those who made it, and the value they attributed to it).

We attribute value to 'Gold' due to its rarity. We did the same thing to Bitcoin for Gods sake.

Are you arguing that Bitcoin is not a social construction?

Pause for a second here and think about this. Go away and do some reading for a bit before you tie yourself into any more knots.
Gold being rare, lustrous, malleable, ductile and non-corroding, and therefore valuable, doesn’t change if humans disappear either.

Bitcoin is a social construct. It was invented out of the blue 10 years ago. Masculinity and femininity however were not inventions, and therefore, not social constructs.
 

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Malifice

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Gold being rare, lustrous, malleable, ductile and non-corroding, and therefore valuable, doesn’t change if humans disappear either.
It does change because we are the only species that attributes value to something that is rare, lustrous, malleable, ductile and non-corroding.

Those things are only true because we agree they are. Just like 2000 year old Ming vases are valued at a squillion dollars, or Bitcoin has value.

You are literally the only person in the world arguing 'value' is an objective trait of currency (money, antiques, gold, gems, precious metals) etc, and not a socially constructed one. 'Value' itself is a socially constructed term that holds no meaning outside of social exchanges for good and services, as agreed between two or more people.

Anyway, I'm done with this argument. You're self evidently wrong, you wont find a single economist or scientist or philosopher to agree with you that 'value' is an objective property of an object (be it gold, a Ming vase, an emerald, a 10 dollar bill, a car, or whatever) and have picked a very strange hill to die on indeed.

Personally, where you get messed up is you think 'social construct' means 'doesn't exist'. I'm not saying 'value placed on objects including gold doesnt exist' I'm (and literally every single scientist and academic in the world) are saying it does exist, but as a social construct.
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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It does change because we are the only species that attributes value to something that is rare, lustrous, malleable, ductile and non-corroding.

Those things are only true because we agree they are. Just like 2000 year old Ming vases are valued at a squillion dollars, or Bitcoin has value.

You are literally the only person in the world arguing 'value' is an objective trait of currency (money, antiques, gold, gems, precious metals) etc, and not a socially constructed one. 'Value' itself is a socially constructed term that holds no meaning outside of social exchanges for good and services, as agreed between two or more people.

Anyway, I'm done with this argument. You're self evidently wrong, you wont find a single economist or scientist or philosopher to agree with you that 'value' is an objective property of an object (be it gold, a Ming vase, an emerald, a 10 dollar bill, a car, or whatever) and have picked a very strange hill to die on indeed.

Personally, where you get messed up is you think 'social construct' means 'doesn't exist'. I'm not saying 'value placed on objects including gold doesnt exist' I'm (and literally every single scientist and academic in the world) are saying it does exist, but as a social construct.
We’re the only species that measures its atomic weight. “Attributing value” is just another form of measurement. Its value is a consequence of its physical properties - it isn’t invented out of nothing (like Bitcoin).

To say gold is the same as Bitcoin, or that the concept of masculinity is the same as the rules of AFL, is the kind fraudulent language games that post modernists play to deny reality. And have done more damage to science than any other intellectual movement.
 

kirsti

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That's just someone who doesnt identify as 'feminine' or 'masculine' or goes through periods where they identify as one or the other.

I've yet to hear of a case where a person wakes up each day deciding to identify as a different gender.

Im sure it exists somewhere in the world, but it would be rare indeed.

In any event, if they're sincere then I would give them the respect they deserve and follow what they want to be identified as. It's no different to someone who legally changes their name each day. I'd call them whatever they wanted to be called.

Why wouldnt you?
Being Brooklyn: a gender-neutral life

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fleabitten

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In the near-beginning, as hunter/gatherers, male strength meant something. Ghosts of this line of thought linger all across the globe but in many instances our settled consumer society has left the hunter/gatherer culturally extinct.
Male strength still means something outside the bubble of middle-class comfort.
 

twotooto

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Still means something inside it. I’m expected to do the heavy lifting and strength related mechanical chores in the house, because essentially I’m the only one who can.
Next time you're 'expected' to do some heavy lifting just say
"nah, can't be ******"
"how come?"
"social constructs babe. I am socially constructing the **** out of this thing"
 

Bigger

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It does change because we are the only species that attributes value to something that is rare, lustrous, malleable, ductile and non-corroding.

Those things are only true because we agree they are. Just like 2000 year old Ming vases are valued at a squillion dollars, or Bitcoin has value.

You are literally the only person in the world arguing 'value' is an objective trait of currency (money, antiques, gold, gems, precious metals) etc, and not a socially constructed one. 'Value' itself is a socially constructed term that holds no meaning outside of social exchanges for good and services, as agreed between two or more people.

Anyway, I'm done with this argument. You're self evidently wrong, you wont find a single economist or scientist or philosopher to agree with you that 'value' is an objective property of an object (be it gold, a Ming vase, an emerald, a 10 dollar bill, a car, or whatever) and have picked a very strange hill to die on indeed.

Personally, where you get messed up is you think 'social construct' means 'doesn't exist'. I'm not saying 'value placed on objects including gold doesnt exist' I'm (and literally every single scientist and academic in the world) are saying it does exist, but as a social construct.
10 dollar bills get around.
 

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sorted

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It's like some people haven't read anything about anthropology or evolutionary psychology. There are recurring themes in culture after culture across the world - such as a thirst for social approval, marriage between males and females, a capacity for guilt. This is clearly genetic; where else could rules for mental development come from? And it could be said these things have objective value for humans. Then there are differences across cultures that tune how our underlying nature operates on the world and each other.

This genetic phenomenon is seen in male and female behaviour. As Darwin observed, in most classes of animal species - mammals, birds, reptiles, fishes, insects - the males are always the 'wooers' and eager to have sex. Having less reproductive opportunities than males, females tend to be 'coy' and choosy about their mates, which in turn leads to competition, even combat, amongst males about who gets to have sex with the females. And traits that females find attractive in males will be evolutionarily successful.

We see this represented in humans. Women select men that have wealth, power and social status - so it's in men's interest, reproductively speaking, to obtain those things. In some circumstances status is gained by physical prowess. Women are selected by men for youth and attractiveness, such as symmetry of facial features, which is a shortcut to their genetic quality, health, and reproductive potential. So it's in women's interest to exaggerate their youth and attractiveness. Hence the large amount of time and money spent on fake hair, fake face, fake boobs, fake height.

These ideas are not new. George Williams book in 1966 was significant. But these days even feminists believe that men and women are 'essentially' different. These biological differences between men and women give rise to different behaviours across all cultures.

Females know with absolute certainty that the children from any relationship are their own. Males do not. Hence why mothers tend to spend a greater investment of time with the children, as do the extended families of mothers. Women are more nurturing of children, the sick and the elderly. Female sexual
availability is highly valued and protected both by society and the families of females, especially for young women.

Males are stronger and more aggressive, hence more prone to violence but also more capable in warfare and sport. Males of all mammalian species engage in more juvenile rough-and-tumble play. Males are greater risk takers.

It has been shown that men's and women's brains are physiologically significantly different in a number of ways.

In contrast, the recent rise in the number of people identifying as transgender is a social phenomenon.
 

Geelong_Sicko

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In contrast, the recent rise in the number of people identifying as transgender is a social phenomenon.
I believe we have those numbers today because it has become more socially permissable. How many years had homosexuals (for example) done things 'in the closet' so to speak? They've always been around, same as those who believe they were born to the wrong gender. They wwere forced to the shadows but they've always existed.

They just have more options to actually live their lives as they see fit amongst a biodiverse humanity these days, which is no bad thing.
 
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It may have always existed, but only now is it being actively coached by oddball parents. My wife met a lady the other day who had a child and categorically will not refer to its gender. She even referred to the child as ‘it’. I’m not saying this is the norm, but it is a growing scenario. Parents are raising kids to be confused about something, which for 99.9% of the population is cut and dry.

We can all be more understanding and accepting, but I’m not sure we should be actively encouraging this confusion in children.
 

sorted

Norm Smith Medallist
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I believe we have those numbers today because it has become more socially permissable. How many years had homosexuals (for example) done things 'in the closet' so to speak? They've always been around, same as those who believe they were born to the wrong gender. They wwere forced to the shadows but they've always existed.

They just have more options to actually live their lives as they see fit amongst a biodiverse humanity these days, which is no bad thing.
There's no evidence that there was an undercurrent of young people in history who would have changed gender if it was socially permissible. What we are seeing is a political movement that has allowed some health professionals to encourage kids who express doubts about their gender to transition to the opposite sex, and of course make a nice little earner. In the UK the girls number referred for treatment rose by more than 4,000% in less than a decade.

It's much more complicated than allowing people to live their lives as they see fit, and there is big potential downside.

For example, children do not have the maturity to make the best decisions for themselves but their parents wishes are being overridden by the state. In Canada, a recent ruling means that a 14-year-old girl can begin receiving testosterone injections without parental consent. The ruling also mean that if either of the girl’s parents refer to their daughter as a girl, they will be considered guilty of family violence under the Canadian Family Law Act. Dr. Wallace Wong, the psychologist at the heart of heart of the case, runs a children-only “gender therapy” practice, with his youngest client not yet three years old. His practice began in 2010 with just four kids, and in nine years now has more than 500 kids just from orphans and foster kids who are in the care of the British Colombia Ministry of Children and Family.

Gender dysphoria is commonly associated with other mental health conditions including higher risk of suicide. Changing ones body by hormone therapy and surgery has been shown to have some short term positive effects. But in the long term there seems to be continued psychological trauma and increased suicide. There is also substantial health risk for individuals receiving hormone treatment. Transgendering men suffered more than twice as many strokes as women or non-transitioning men. And more than five times as many deep vein clots as women or non-transitioning men. They suffered more than twice as many heart attacks as women. Transgendering women suffered almost four times as many heart attacks as non-transitioning women.

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.118.038584

I think a better approach would be to not encourage gender dysphoria in children - most of it dissipates with age. And treat it as part of a more general dissociative disorder where the goal is to align the person to their biological sex, along with resolving their other issues. Of course, a flexible approach is required but currently the ideology is dominating the issue to the detriment of the individuals affected.
 

Snake_Baker

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There's no evidence that there was an undercurrent of young people in history who would have changed gender if it was socially permissible. What we are seeing is a political movement that has allowed some health professionals to encourage kids who express doubts about their gender to transition to the opposite sex, and of course make a nice little earner. In the UK the girls number referred for treatment rose by more than 4,000% in less than a decade.

It's much more complicated than allowing people to live their lives as they see fit, and there is big potential downside.

For example, children do not have the maturity to make the best decisions for themselves but their parents wishes are being overridden by the state. In Canada, a recent ruling means that a 14-year-old girl can begin receiving testosterone injections without parental consent. The ruling also mean that if either of the girl’s parents refer to their daughter as a girl, they will be considered guilty of family violence under the Canadian Family Law Act. Dr. Wallace Wong, the psychologist at the heart of heart of the case, runs a children-only “gender therapy” practice, with his youngest client not yet three years old. His practice began in 2010 with just four kids, and in nine years now has more than 500 kids just from orphans and foster kids who are in the care of the British Colombia Ministry of Children and Family.

Gender dysphoria is commonly associated with other mental health conditions including higher risk of suicide. Changing ones body by hormone therapy and surgery has been shown to have some short term positive effects. But in the long term there seems to be continued psychological trauma and increased suicide. There is also substantial health risk for individuals receiving hormone treatment. Transgendering men suffered more than twice as many strokes as women or non-transitioning men. And more than five times as many deep vein clots as women or non-transitioning men. They suffered more than twice as many heart attacks as women. Transgendering women suffered almost four times as many heart attacks as non-transitioning women.

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.118.038584

I think a better approach would be to not encourage gender dysphoria in children - most of it dissipates with age. And treat it as part of a more general dissociative disorder where the goal is to align the person to their biological sex, along with resolving their other issues. Of course, a flexible approach is required but currently the ideology is dominating the issue to the detriment of the individuals affected.
It will be blamed on the patriarchy.
 

CM86

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Yeah, these are the problems.

Not obesity, lack of education, religion, health.

It's making sure we don't let kids know that it's OK to be gay or trans. Because that's 'encouraging homosexuality' et al, which has been on the rise since it was legalised...


The 2016 Census counted just under 46,800 same-sex couples living together in Australia. This represents a 39% increase since the 2011 Census. Younger people accounted for almost all of the increase in the number of same-sex couples between the 2011 and 2016 Censuses. Half (51%) of the increase was for the cohort aged 20-29 years in 2016, with an additional 35% of the increase in the cohort aged 30-39 years in 2016.

Is the increase of same-sex couples living together a sign of child manipulation? Or a sign that society is gradually shifting to understand that homosexuality is OK?
 

Exoplanet

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There goes another thread

You have that right.
The people here who are claiming that things are "social constructs" are rather ignorant of more than one scientific field and don't seem to understand much about science (other than the "popular" version), but those who are arguing with them about it are doing a very poor job.

I think I'll go and hide in a fridge.
 

Snake_Baker

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You have that right.
The people here who are claiming that things are "social constructs" are rather ignorant of more than one scientific field and don't seem to understand much about science (other than the "popular" version), but those who are arguing with them about it are doing a very poor job.

I think I'll go and hide in a fridge.

Twits who cannot be employed in proper scientific positions are permeating throughout politics, the bureaucracy & media and polluting the world with crap.
 

Exoplanet

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Yeah, these are the problems.

Not obesity, lack of education, religion, health.

It's making sure we don't let kids know that it's OK to be gay or trans. Because that's 'encouraging homosexuality' et al, which has been on the rise since it was legalised...


The 2016 Census counted just under 46,800 same-sex couples living together in Australia. This represents a 39% increase since the 2011 Census. Younger people accounted for almost all of the increase in the number of same-sex couples between the 2011 and 2016 Censuses. Half (51%) of the increase was for the cohort aged 20-29 years in 2016, with an additional 35% of the increase in the cohort aged 30-39 years in 2016.

Is the increase of same-sex couples living together a sign of child manipulation? Or a sign that society is gradually shifting to understand that homosexuality is OK?
Neither the question nor the answer need to be either/or.
 

armpit

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I was reading the other day, that staff from the Tavistock Gender Clinic are leaving for moral grounds etc. They are likening it to child experimentation. Children as young as 12 are being administered hormones and the numbers being admitted are increasing by the 1000's.

I've said before, leave the children alone. Let them decide as adults whether this is what they want.

I'm sick to the stomach that this agenda driven or else what? is the reason for this escalation of need??
 

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Norm Smith Medallist
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I was reading the other day, that staff from the Tavistock Gender Clinic are leaving for moral grounds etc. They are likening it to child experimentation. Children as young as 12 are being administered hormones and the numbers being admitted are increasing by the 1000's.

I've said before, leave the children alone. Let them decide as adults whether this is what they want.

I'm sick to the stomach that this agenda driven or else what? is the reason for this escalation of need??
It’s like lobotomies. For which the leading practitioner won a Nobel prize. Only a few decades later people were horrified at the practice, and the same will happen here.
 
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