Transgender

[Gralin]

Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Benny78]

Sex and Gender should be regarded to the biology you are born to. Regardless of any future body modifications or any later life ideas. In regards to dating, people have a right to know whether they're having sex with the same sex or the opposite sex.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Sex and Gender should be regarded to the biology you are born to. Regardless of any future body modifications or any later life ideas. In regards to dating, people have a right to know whether they're having sex with the same sex or the opposite sex.

Disagree with the first part but I one hundred percent agree with you on the dating bit and the need for prospective partners to be informed well before things get funky with the mood lighting and the vibrating bed and the handcuffs and the... ahem. It would be a hell of a thing to spring on someone rather than calmly walking them through the situation as one mature adult to another.

 

[igon value]

Disagree with the first part but I one hundred percent agree with you on the dating bit and the need for prospective partners to be informed well before things get funky with the mood lighting and the vibrating bed and the handcuffs and the... ahem. It would be a hell of a thing to spring on someone rather than calmly walking them through the situation as one mature adult to another.

Why do you disagree with the first part and yet insist that people have the right to know whether their partner was once the opposite sex?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Why do you disagree with the first part and yet insist that people have the right to know whether their partner was once the opposite sex?

It's only fair that all partners are open and honest with each other. Although there is some truth to the old saying that true love is blind to all, I personally would like to know what the go was if I met a post-op woman and really fell for her.

It's more a 'respect' thing than anything else.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Lol

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11821399

Ridiculous. When there's any ambiguity over gender or sex, the athlete should have to compete against the men. There's a reason why women compete in seperate competitions to men. Allowing men to compete against them is incredibly unfair.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Lol

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11821399

That's pretty ridiculous, surely they can create a trans division?

 

[igon value]

Ridiculous. When there's any ambiguity over gender or sex, the athlete should have to compete against the men. There's a reason why women compete in seperate competitions to men. Allowing men to compete against them is incredibly unfair.

Ease up mate, there's no ambiguity

Quite clearly a woman.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Ridiculous. When there's any ambiguity over gender or sex, the athlete should have to compete against the men. There's a reason why women compete in seperate competitions to men. Allowing men to compete against them is incredibly unfair.

But they're not built like men. Not any more. And it starts to show.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...075993d73a2_story.html?utm_term=.434e4f82b643

...To compete (in the Olympics), a trans woman athlete is required only to declare her gender as “female” and have testosterone levels comparable to or below those of cisgender women. (Cisgender refers to folks whose biological sex matches their gender identity, the opposite of transgender.) These long-awaited changes are a big step forward in creating an equitable playing field — and they bring the IOC in line with the NCAA (the U.S National Collegiate Athletic Association), which invoked a similar policy for college athletes...

...The first-ever study of transgender athletes showed that the hormone therapy that facilitates male-to-female transition does more than just suppress testosterone. Published last year in the Journal of Sporting Cultures and Identities, the study showed that as testosterone levels approach female norms, trans women experience a decrease in muscle mass, bone density and other physical characteristics.

“Together these changes lead to a loss of speed, strength and endurance — all key components of athleticism,” the study’s author, Joanna Harper, wrote in The Washington Post. Harper, who is chief medical physicist at Oregon’s Providence Portland Medical Center, a trans athlete and a participant in the IOC meeting that overhauled the trans guidelines, explained to me that “it’s not the anatomy that matters, it’s the hormones.” After a year of hormone therapy, for example, female trans distance runners completely lose their speed advantage over cisgender women...

 

[igon value]

But they're not built like men. Not any more. And it starts to show.

Forgive me if I don't believe a publication called the 'Journal of Sporting Cultures and Identities' is scientifically rigorous, especially a paper written by a transgender person.

There have been a number of cases of intersex and male-to-female transsexuals winning female sporting events, which makes one wonder if enough men changed their sex to compete in female sports, would women ever win?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Forgive me if I don't believe a publication called the 'Journal of Sporting Cultures and Identities' is scientifically rigorous, especially a paper written by a transgender person.

Considering the article seemed very much informed on the I.O.C's own recommendations about the diminished 'threat' of an unfair advantage by transgender athletes and contributed to their rulings on the participation of these athletes

https://stillmed.olympic.org/Docume..._sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf

1) Transgender guidelines

A. Since the 2003 Stockholm Consensus on Sex Reassignment in Sports, there has been a growing recognition of the importance of autonomy of gender identity in society, as reflected in the laws of many jurisdictions worldwide.

B. There are also, however, jurisdictions where autonomy of gender identity is not recognised in law at all.

C. It is necessary to ensure insofar as possible that trans athletes are not excluded from the opportunity to participate in sporting competition.

D. The overriding sporting objective is and remains the guarantee of fair competition. Restrictions on participation are appropriate to the extent that they are necessary and proportionate to the achievement of that objective.

E. To require surgical anatomical changes as a pre-condition to participation is not necessary to preserve fair competition and may be inconsistent with developing legislation and notions of human rights.

F. Nothing in these guidelines is intended to undermine in any way the requirement to comply with the World Anti-Doping Code and the WADA International Standards.

G. These guidelines are a living document and will be subject to review in light of any scientific or medical developments.

In this spirit, the IOC Consensus Meeting agreed the following guidelines to be taken into account by sports organisations when determining eligibility to compete in male and female competition:

1. Those who transition from female to male are eligible to compete in the male category without restriction.

2. Those who transition from male to female are eligible to compete in the female category under the following conditions:

2.1. The athlete has declared that her gender identity is female. The declaration cannot be changed, for sporting purposes, for a minimum of four years.

2.2. The athlete must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first competition (with the requirement for any longer period to be based on a confidential case-by-case evaluation, considering whether or not 12 months is a sufficient length of time to minimize any advantage in women’s competition).

2.3. The athlete's total testosterone level in serum must remain below 10 nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the female category.

2.4. Compliance with these conditions may be monitored by testing. In the event of non-compliance, the athlete’s eligibility for female competition will be suspended for 12 months.

I don't really see what the problem is. And as for 'scientifically rigorous', did you check out the references and the short bio of the author at the end?

http://jrci.cgpublisher.com/product..._RaceTimesforTransgenderAthletes_FinalOF.pdf?

REFERENCES

Abrams, Roger I. “Sports justice: the law and the business of sports Boston, Mass”.:
Northeastern University Press, 2010

Bermon, S., Garnier, P.Y., Hirschberg, A.L., et al. 2014. “Serum Androgen Levels in Elite
Female Athletes.” J Clin Endocrinol Metab. Nov;99(11):4328-35.

Cavanagh, S.L., & Sykes, H. 2006. “Transsexual bodies at the Olympics: The International Olympic Committee’s policy on transsexual athletes at the 2004 Athens Summer Games”. Body & Society, 12, 75-102.

Devries, M. 2008. “Do Transitioned Athletes Compete at an Advantage or Disadvantage as compared with Physically Born Men and Women”: A review of the Scientific Literature

Elsas LJ, Ljungqvist A, Ferguson-Smith MA, et al. 2000. “Gender verification of female
athletes.” Genet Med;2:249–54

Gooren L, and Bunck M. 2004. “Transsexuals and competitive sports.” European Journal of
Endocrinology 151: 425-429.

Grubb, H.J. 1998. “Models for Comparing Athletic Performances”. The Statistician, 47, 509-521.

Haring, R., A. Hannemann, U. John, et al. 2012. “Age-specific reference ranges for serum testosterone and androstenedione concentrations in women measured by liquid chromatography–tandem mass spectrometry.” Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 97(2): 408–415.

Healy, M.L., Gibney, R., Pentecost, C., Wheeler, M.J., and Sonksen, P. H. 2014 “Endocrine profiles in 693 elite athletes in the post competition setting.” Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). Aug;81(2):294-305.

International Association of Athletics Federations 2011. “IAAF Regulations Governing Eligibility of Athletes who have Undergone Sex Reassignment to Compete in Women's Competition”

International Olympic Committee 2012. “IOC Regulations on Female Hyperandrogenism”.

www.olympic.org/Documents/Commissions_PDFfiles/Medical_commission/2012-06-

22-IOC-Regulations-on-Female-Hyperandrogenism-eng.pdf

Jones, Alan. 2010. “Age Grading Running Races”.
http://home.roadrunner.com/~alanjones/AgeGrade.html

Karkazis, K., R. Jordan-Young, G. Davis, and S. Camporesi. 2012. “Out of bounds? A critique of
the new policies on hyperandrogenism in elite female athletes.” American Journal of
Bioethics 12(7): 3–16.

Ljungqvist, A., Cohen-Haguenauer , O., Genel, M., Simpson, J., Ritzen, M., Fellous, M.,Schamasch 2003. “Statement of the Stockholm consensus on sex reassignment in
sports.” www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf

Ljungqvist, A., 2014. Private Communication. Minnesota Star Tribune
http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/284678481.html

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

Joanna Harper: Medical Physicist, Radiation Oncology, Providence Portland Medical Center,

Portland, Oregon, USA

Joanna Harper seems to have used quite a few scientific reviews to base her findings on.

There have been a number of cases of intersex and male-to-female transsexuals winning female sporting events, which makes one wonder if enough men changed their sex to compete in female sports, would women ever win?

I suppose the bigger the sample pool to draw findings from the better.

 

[igon value]

Considering the article seemed very much informed on the I.O.C's own recommendations about the diminished 'threat' of an unfair advantage by transgender athletes and contributed to their rulings on the participation of these athletes

IOC was responding to social concerns, not rigorous science.

I don't really see what the problem is. And as for 'scientifically rigorous', did you check out the references and the short bio of the author at the end?

Joanna Harper seems to have used quite a few scientific reviews to base her findings on.

I think you'll find most of those references are to ethics and sociological journals as well as meta studies. Meanwhile a person trained in radiology will know as much about endocrinology as Ian Plimer does about climate change.

From the abstract of one of the scientific citations:

The conclusion is that androgen deprivation in M-F increases the overlap in muscle mass with women but does not reverse it, statistically.

Hardly says much for the assertion that M-F transsexuals are practically the same as true females.

I suppose the bigger the sample pool to draw findings from the better.

In the meantime, people who were formerly men should not be allowed to compete as women, because they aren't women.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

In the meantime, people who were formerly men should not be allowed to compete as women, because they aren't women.

Just on this, more study is always the answer. But transgender at some point will HAVE to be run head-to-head against their chosen gender, and many times at that. If they consistently win, then there is proof of inequality. If it's not so consistent or becomes the average for the sport then why not open it up for them?

Hardly says much for the assertion that M-F transsexuals are practically the same as true females.

In the abstract's conclusion

The question of whether reassigned M-F can fairly compete with women depends on what degree of arbitrariness one wishes to accept, keeping in mind, for instance, that similar blood testosterone levels in men have profoundly different biologic effects on muscle properties, rendering competition in sports intrinsically a matter of how nature endows individuals for this competition.

it kind of says there is no absolute anyway, only a disparate pool of individual endowment based on nature's whim.

 

[igon value]

Just on this, more study is always the answer. But transgender at some point will HAVE to be run head-to-head against their chosen gender, and many times at that. If they consistently win, then there is proof of inequality. If it's not so consistent or becomes the average for the sport then why not open it up for them?

Why should women have to compete against men purporting to be women?

What is the point of women's sport?

In the abstract's conclusion



it kind of says there is no absolute anyway, only a disparate pool of individual endowment based on nature's whim.

Yes, that arbitrariness could be defined as simply defining women as those who are not men, as opposed those who are born women, with XX chromosomes and low testosterone levels within the normal range of women (i.e. the conventional woman).

The study finds that conventional women are on average weaker than M-F transsexuals. Maybe our competitions could be divided into two: men's competitions and those who are not good enough to be considered men.

The nature's whim argument says that because someone like Gary Ablett is a genetic freak endowed with natural advantages not available to the average person, that those who were born men and choose to become women and compete are the same as a superbly talented normal woman with genetic advantages like Gary Ablett. That is, if all sports are performed by athletic freaks outside the norm, what is one more naturally abnormal person?

However we already have competitions for such freaks who enjoy the physiological advantages of male biology: men's competitions.

 

[Reynolds Number]

I had a friend come out as a transgender in 2010.

Got called out and told off by work colleagues in Sydney for referring to him/her as a he.

But he probably can't play womans sport without being bagged out for not being a woman.

So by that logic there is some merit in the "other" option.

 

[Gough]

Any discussion on LGBTQI issues always ends up going to extremes, people marrying horses, bigamy, or in this case trans Olympians. The original point at hand was about people being able to identify as something other than male, or female on the census which seems perfectly reasonable.

 

[Power Raid]

Any discussion on LGBTQI issues always ends up going to extremes, people marrying horses, bigamy, or in this case trans Olympians. The original point at hand was about people being able to identify as something other than male, or female on the census which seems perfectly reasonable.

agree

I guess it depends on the purpose and use of the information being collected.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Why should women have to compete against men purporting to be women?

What is the point of women's sport?

You can choose what you want to be or who you feel you were born to be in this life. More and more aspects of modern day living are slowly accepting this reality.

Yes, that arbitrariness could be defined as simply defining women as those who are not men, as opposed those who are born women, with XX chromosomes and low testosterone levels within the normal range of women (i.e. the conventional woman).

The study finds that conventional women are on average weaker than M-F transsexuals. Maybe our competitions could be divided into two: men's competitions and those who are not good enough to be considered men.

The nature's whim argument says that because someone like Gary Ablett is a genetic freak endowed with natural advantages not available to the average person, that those who were born men and choose to become women and compete are the same as a superbly talented normal woman with genetic advantages like Gary Ablett. That is, if all sports are performed by athletic freaks outside the norm, what is one more naturally abnormal person?

However we already have competitions for such freaks who enjoy the physiological advantages of male biology: men's competitions.

Look, I agree that if a concrete and consistent competitive edge by transgender athletes is proven beyond doubt then the situation will need to be looked at and a transgender competition category be formed.

But has it been emphatically proven?

 

[cannot]

Queensland's parliament has followed several other states around Australia and abolished the so-called 'gay panic' defence to murder as part of a raft of changes to the state's criminal code.

The partial defence to murder had allowed defendants to argue for a reduction to manslaughter by claiming an unwanted homosexual advance provoked violence.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/03/22/queensland-abolishes-gay-panic-defence-murder

 

[igon value]

You can choose what you want to be or who you feel you were born to be in this life. More and more aspects of modern day living are slowly accepting this reality.

That's a strange definition of reality. If subjective experience trumps objective reality then why doesn't this apply to everything? Why is fake news bad? Why are climate change deniers wrong? Why are anti-vaxxers wrong?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

That's a strange definition of reality. If subjective experience trumps objective reality then why doesn't this apply to everything? Why is fake news bad? Why are climate change deniers wrong? Why are anti-vaxxers wrong?

I don't know the answers to the other questions, but on biology science has changed so much. Medical science especially. People uncomfortable in their skins can actually do something about it beyond putting a dress or some trousers on.

Fair enough, I reckon. I mean, I understand the conservative mindset of 'I don't understand why people think this way now, it shouldn't be allowed, why can't things ever stay the same as they were when I was growing up?'. The fear of change, and the lack of understanding associated with it is a real thing and it is truly terrifying for some people.

But that's life. That's time. It rolls on regardless.

 

[cannot]

I don't know the answers to the other questions, but on biology science has changed so much. Medical science especially. People uncomfortable in their skins can actually do something about it beyond putting a dress or some trousers on.

Fair enough, I reckon. I mean, I understand the conservative mindset of 'I don't understand why people think this way now, it shouldn't be allowed, why can't things ever stay the same as they were when I was growing up?'. The fear of change, and the lack of understanding associated with it is a real thing and it is truly terrifying for some people.

But that's life. That's time. It rolls on regardless.

attempts by the powers to break down the traditional family model to further muck up society

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

attempts by the powers to break down the traditional family model to further muck up society

That might be your viewpoint but it sure aint mine. A fair go for all, I reckon.

 

[cannot]

That might be your viewpoint but it sure aint mine.

i gathered that

A fair go for all, I reckon.

very broad definition of 'fair go'

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

i gathered that

very broad definition of 'fair go'

Can I ask a question? What about all this actually bothers you?

 

[cannot]

Can I ask a question? What about all this actually bothers you?

you understand the conservative mind set, work it out

i am not personally too bothered. i just read your words and found them interesting. So i added some of my own