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Transgender

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Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...
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igon value said:
At what point do shelters in Canada that are now required by legislation to accept M-F transgender people in do they assess the existence of genitals, breasts, etc?

Even the IOC no longer require people competing in women's events to not have a penis.
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Did Hambrook have priors? He seems like an extremely disturbed individual. A background check as a matter of course would be handy. Intrusive, but handy.
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
Did Hambrook have priors? He seems like an extremely disturbed individual. A background check as a matter of course would be handy. Intrusive, but handy.
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Again, what resources do you expect women's shelters to have?

It's emergency accomodation for women in desperate situations, usually under the threat of violence from men.
 
igon value said:
Again, what resources do you expect women's shelters to have?

It's emergency accomodation for women in desperate situations, usually under the threat of violence from men.
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Well, at the very least they should have 24/7 security to protect those seeking shelter from any vengeful ex partners who may have tracked them to that shelter.

If a shelter cannot provide security is it a shelter?
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
Well, at the very least they should have 24/7 security to protect those seeking shelter from any vengeful ex partners who may have tracked them to that shelter.

If a shelter cannot provide security is it a shelter?
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They provide shelter and security by denying access to men. Once a man is in there what is meant to happen? Security monitoring all interactions? Is it a prison or a shelter?
 

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igon value said:
They provide shelter and security by denying access to men. Once a man is in there what is meant to happen? Security monitoring all interactions? Is it a prison or a shelter?
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Is society at large a prison or a society? Every year more and more restrictive laws are passed. More and more of our streets are covered by CCTV. The police are up-arming and up-armouring.

Sadly, safety always seems to come at a price.
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
Is society at large a prison or a society? Every year more and more restrictive laws are passed. More and more of our streets are covered by CCTV. The police are up-arming and up-armouring.

Sadly, safety always seems to come at a price.
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That's tangential to issue: what are women's shelters for?

You seem to want to bend over backwards to protect the 0.0001% of people against the interests of a historically vulnerable 50% of people. As I said earlier, your values have been inverted by trying to be too progressive. You don't know where you stand.
 
igon value said:
Its about transgender women insisting that they are the same and have earned the same rights and protections as women.
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I think they have. You think they haven't. I know I'm never going to convince you. I know that. But I think tolerance and understanding is the way forward. I know I can't ever convince you of that.

Different mindsets.
 
cannot said:
what are his main points as to why
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His points are first (mine in brackets)

On transgender in sports rendering results unfair in that transgender athletes will always have the advantage. (this has not been proven)

On transgender in bathrooms being rejected by women (I suggested an alternative where everyone can enjoy privacy)

On transgender being in womens shelters compromising safety (one incident does not forever frame the transgender individual as a dangerous sexual predator)
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
I think they have. You think they haven't. I know I'm never going to convince you. I know that. But I think tolerance and understanding is the way forward. I know I can't ever convince you of that.

Different mindsets.
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Tolerance for whom?

Like a dog returning to its own vomit, you keep bringing up these motherhood statements.

Why do we have women's domestic violence shelters? Why do we have women's only prisons? Why do we have women's only sport?

What is it about people who were born male that identify as women that excludes them from these women's only spaces and activities. The elephant in the room is that you seem to be avoiding: because they are men.

And this is the objective reality.
 
igon value said:
Tolerance for whom?

Like a dog returning to its own vomit, you keep bringing up these motherhood statements.

Why do we have women's domestic violence shelters? Why do we have women's only prisons? Why do we have women's only sport?

What is it about people who were born male that identify as women that excludes them from these women's only spaces and activities. The elephant in the room is that you seem to be avoiding: because they are men.

And this is the objective reality.
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Once those hormonal changes start happening, once their muscle mass and bone density starts changing, they're not men any more.

And equating tolerance with vomit? Really?
 

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Geelong_Sicko said:
Once those hormonal changes start happening, once their muscle mass and bone density starts changing, they're not men any more.
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They're not women either. Again, according to Canada's laws and the US DOJ's Title IX as redefined by Obama, you only had to identify as a woman, not have to go through surgery or go through hormonal changes to be afforded the protections and status women do.

And equating tolerance with vomit? And then debasing motherhood by equating it to both? Really?
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Lol.
 
igon value said:
They're not women either. Again, according to Canada's laws and the US DOJ's Title IX as redefined by Obama, you only had to identify as a woman, not have to go through surgery or go through hormonal changes to be afforded the protections and status women do.
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The 'identity' thing should be based on more, I agree. The IOC demands more than that for transgender to participate no matter what the U.S Department of Justice thinks.


igon value said:
Lol.
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The 'debasing motherhood' thing was a bridge too far. I took it back. Sorry pal:thumbsu:
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
The 'identity' thing should be based on more, I agree. The IOC demands more than that for transgender to participate no matter what the U.S Department of Justice thinks.
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The entire politics of transgender rights rests on identity, not physiology. That's the issue.

That's why radical feminist organisations have sued the US government.
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
But what of those transgender women who have undergone the physiological changes?
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It should be left up to the discretion of the women's organisation or women participants. If in some cases that is perceived as discriminatory, so be it.
 

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Geelong_Sicko said:
See, I disagree. But we can't convince each other otherwise can we?
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Why shouldn't women under the threat of violence from men be able to choose which of those on the borderline between male and female are permitted into their sanctuaries?

Before you resort to nonsense about 'tolerance and understanding is key' like a coked up Patrick Bateman mouthing platitudes, put your brain into gear.
 
igon value said:
Why shouldn't women under the threat of violence from men be able to choose which of those on the borderline between male and female are permitted into their sanctuaries?
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These women are under threat of violence from their partners (or ex partners), not men in general. Your one example of something that went wrong highlights the need for security and screening for sure, but need not paint transgender women as a danger to be segregated at all costs.

igon value said:
Before you resort to nonsense about 'tolerance and understanding is key' like a coked up Patrick Bateman mouthing platitudes, put your brain into gear.
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My turn to type 'lol' this time I guess. Lol.
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
Their under threat of violence from their partners (or ex partners), not men in general. Your one example of something that went wrong highlights the need for security and screening for sure, but need not paint transgender women as a danger to be segregated at all costs.
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Come on man - it's not just shelters. It's women's dorms, sororities, schools, sports, hostel accomodation, gyms, prisons, change rooms and yes, toilets

You're not really thinking why we prohibit men from these spaces, and why women might be guarded about letting men who present themselves as women into these spaces.

Why shouldn't women reserve the right to discriminate against transgender people in these instances?

If you truly believe they shouldn't, then why should they discriminate against men?
 
igon value said:
Its about transgender women insisting that they are the same and have earned the same rights and protections as women.
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I'm a little surprised by a statement like this. Can you explain further?

specifically what protections and rights?
 
Power Raid said:
I'm a little surprised by a statement like this. Can you explain further?

specifically what protections and rights?
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Why do we so often segregate by sex? In whose interests do we segregate things like crisis accomodation, prisons, dorms, etc?
 
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