Transgender

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Aug 12, 2012
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Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.
 
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Apr 28, 2008
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My god a lot of far rights needlessly waste their time on miniscule issues. Self-projecting creeps the lot of them. The rest of the country would rather move on.

I transitioned near a decade ago, and I honestly haven't discussed this topic (personally or generally as an issue), nor seen a transgender person, in about 5 years. That is about how relevant an issue it is to my daily life. Never hear talk about the issue in the street or the workplace. It is only the shouting matches in the media that seem to make it visible.

But in the meantime it seems to have become a mainstream contention. There seems to be an assumption that every trans person is stereotypically some raving left-wing lunatic advocate. Most transgender people probably move on with their lives post-transition, some vote Liberal, some have never used social media, some have never met a trans child, some would be loathe to use a public restroom, etc. It is a community as diverse as the wider community. But, sadly, I feel more sorry for those transitioning nowadays, as whilst it might be less taboo, the bigotry appears more impassioned and opinionated nowadays than it once was. They were really made to bear the burden of the gay marriage debate. The cost growing pains of equality.

I get that the issue with children is trickier and requires safeguards (which it had a couple years ago, can't speak for today, not really up to date on these things). But it is a medical concern which impacts such a small portion of the population, and doesn't hurt anyone. Some simple human decency and receptiveness to the realities of other experiences different to one's small bubble will suffice.
 
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Apr 12, 2010
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My god a lot of far rights needlessly waste their time on miniscule issues. Self-projecting creeps the lot of them. The rest of the country would rather move on.

I transitioned near a decade ago, and I honestly haven't discussed this topic (personally or generally as an issue), nor seen a transgender person, in about 5 years. That is about how relevant an issue it is to my daily life. Never hear talk about the issue in the street or the workplace. It is only the shouting matches in the media that seem to make it visible.

But in the meantime it seems to have become a mainstream contention. There seems to be an assumption that every trans person is stereotypically some raving left-wing lunatic advocate. Most transgender people probably move on with their lives post-transition, some vote Liberal, some have never used social media, some have never met a trans child, some would be loathe to use a public restroom, etc. It is a community as diverse as the wider community. But, sadly, I feel more sorry for those transitioning nowadays, as whilst it might be less taboo, the bigotry appears more impassioned and opinionated nowadays than it once was. They were really made to bear the burden of the gay marriage debate. The cost growing pains of equality.

Great post.

It seems that it has become the latest battle ground for identity politics. Trans people who couldnt give a s**t about any of that stuff are caught up in it and not allowed to just be considered an individual.
 
Aug 12, 2012
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Great post.

It seems that it has become the latest battle ground for identity politics. Trans people who couldnt give a s**t about any of that stuff are caught up in it and not allowed to just be considered an individual.
And we're hearing that same message every now and again. This is part of the problem - there are so many "activist" SJW types on the fringes who claim to speak for entire groups of people. I doubt that is actually the case in most issues.

This contributes to magnifying the topic. And because it's on the leading edge of human rights issues at the moment (right or wrong), as well as having linked freedom of speech issues, every new instance of something happening gets overblown coverage.
 
Jun 11, 2007
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You reckon? From that article;

The “bone density” red herring has been thrown out there for years, at least since MMA fighter Fallon Fox appeared on the scene. The bone density of black women is, on average, significantly higher than that of white women. In fact, some studies have shown the bone strength of black women to be higher than that of white men.

Yet we don’t see any great rush to divide lifting categories by race, proving this bone-density argument to be nothing but a canard designed to specifically target trans athletes...

Look at the Williams sisters in tennis. They dominate their fellow women and have done for years. Physical and genetic advantages up the wazoo. Should they be banned?
 
May 5, 2006
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Look at the Williams sisters in tennis. They dominate their fellow women and have done for years. Physical and genetic advantages up the wazoo. Should they be banned?

Not unless you want to re-introduce 'Negro leagues' like it's the 1920s.

Serena Willliams is a woman that is physically stronger than most women. It's a big advantage but we're not about to start banning players from the NBA for being tall.

How do you reckon Serena Williams would go against Rafaella Nadal?
 
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Not unless you want to re-introduce 'Negro leagues' like it's the 1920s.

Serena Willliams is a woman that is physically stronger than most women. It's a big advantage but we're not about to start banning players from the NBA for being tall.

How do you reckon Serena Williams would go against Rafaella Nadal?
As long as we don't see Trans women like Fallon Fox in the UFC womens divisions
 
Not unless you want to re-introduce 'Negro leagues' like it's the 1920s.

Serena Willliams is a woman that is physically stronger than most women. It's a big advantage but we're not about to start banning players from the NBA for being tall.

How do you reckon Serena Williams would go against Rafaella Nadal?
Renee Richards played in the 1976 US Open as a transgender woman. She made the third round.
 

Leeda

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Should we just abolish women’s sports and have an open field?
now there we go.. I have a problem with males turning and playing as females.. it is a physiological thing.. surely that is obvious and
I don't absolve from this.. this is my only problem and I can't resolve that there can be an equality with this.. leave it with you..

but it makes sense.. to have a certain restriction.. it is not bias but common undubious sense..
 
Jun 11, 2007
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Should we just abolish women’s sports and have an open field?

In all honesty it wouldn't phase me. I'd still barrack for the Cats if they became a mixed-gender team. I know there's all kinds of questions over player safety in contact sports (the tragic loss of Maggie Varcoe from an accidental head clash illustrates how badly things can go, and that was a woman-on-woman collision) but me as a spectator?

I honseltly can't muster up enough objection to say 'no'.
 
May 5, 2006
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If the AFL incorporated the AFLW then there would still be 100% male players in it. If the teams were mixed gender it would be because the rules were like mixed doubles or social netball where you need a minimum number of female players. No one would watch AFLMW, or AFLMW+NB.

There's very few sports where women can compete with men (gymnastics, excepting they don't do identical events, equestrian...). It's the whole reason sports are segregated after about primary school age.
 

Balls In

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There's very few sports where women can compete with men (gymnastics, excepting they don't do identical events, equestrian...). It's the whole reason sports are segregated after about primary school age.
I dont see men and women as being in competition. Womens sport is not of a particularly high standard but men cant give birth. Why this demand to enforce some sort of fake "equality" when its physiologically impossible is beyond me.
 
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I dont see men and women as being in competition. Womens sport is not of a particularly high a quality but men cant give birth.

In all sports bar equestrian they aren't. I'll leave the 'we're just as good, we deserve to be paid like the men' stuff for the 95 other threads on that. Women don't play in the AFL for the same reasons U/12s don't - they're not at the same level of ability or physical strength.

The only real reason there is an issue with transgender athletes is that biological men want to compete in women's sport. Is there huge resistance to transgender athletes competing in men's sport? There's men, women and a spectrum of people in between. It's not really fair to let anyone who doesn't identify as a man compete as a woman.

Bruce Jenner won Olympic Gold in the decathlon at the Olympic Games then came out as a transgender woman at age 65 or whatever it was. From Wiki: 'in April 2015, Jenner came out as a trans woman, saying that she had dealt with gender dysphoria since her youth and that, "for all intents and purposes, I'm a woman." '.

Granted Caitlyn Jenner probably isn't going to try out for Tokyo 2020 at age 70 but if this transition came in the 1970s there would have been a s**t storm. A male Olympic gold medalist could conceivably compete as a man, transition then compete as a woman 4 years later. That's nuts, if you'll pardon the pun.
 
Apr 12, 2010
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Should we just abolish women’s sports and have an open field?

No.

I get your point, why should gender have a special category compared to say height or a myriad of other genetic factors that exclude people basically from birth?

The answer is it will never be 100% "fair" in that kind of sense. Sure, there are over 40s leagues, I've heard of under 6 foot leagues in basketball. If a particular group can make it happen, great. But they shouldn't be stopped because some other group can't make it happen for them.

That may sound like justification for bringing back "negro leagues" or introducing "whites only athletics" and "blacks only swimming". If such a categorisation can be shown to be genetically disadvantaged, how is it any different to the genetic disadvantage that women have? Why is gender apartheid okay in sport, but racial apartheid is not?

I guess it comes down to pragmatism and what segregation society finds acceptable enough to promote inclusion over exclusion.
Women will never be able to compete at the very top level with men at most sports. It's more absolute. I think with other genetic factors, the disadvantage can be overcome.


s**t who knows, one day in the far future the Olympics for example might be like the Sydney to Hobart. Line honours for the best, regardless of anything else; and a handicap winner determined by a complex algorithm taking into account every ******* gene in our genome.
 

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Were Negro leagues founded due to black people being as superior at sport, or because of the opposite - they were excluded from sport because they were seen as fundamentally inferior?
 
Apr 12, 2010
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Were Negro leagues founded due to black people being as superior at sport, or because of the opposite - they were excluded from sport because they were seen as fundamentally inferior?

Yeah probably not a good example on my part (the swimming and athletics ones were better)

I suspect the reasons the negro leagues were set up had little to do with sporting ability, and more to do with issues of racial integration more broadly.
 
Should we just abolish women’s sports and have an open field?
No no. The men's league is the open league.

The women's league has already had a regulation put on it to allow women, who are overwhelmingly inferior athletically, to compete on a playing field set at women's level. It literally has been created to restrict access to those who possess a natural advantage to allow the women to compete against each other.
 
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