Transgender

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Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.
 
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Tayl0r said:
The reason why is because if you don't clap and cheer someone as being the gender they have decided they are then you're lumped with the bigots and the homophobes. There are people who are sure to their core that they are an amputee in a fully able body. These people are forced to drop their legs into dry ice baths to kill the limb and require an amputation to survive, doctors won't give these people an amputation as a procedure of convenience to help them live how they feel more aligns with their personal self image.

Those people are agreed to be mentally ill.
Click to expand...

Being transgender is no longer classified as a mental illness by the World Health Organization – a key sign of progress for an often-marginalized community.

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/717758002


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Is this thread about transgender in general or transgender in SPORT specifically? Because as far as fairness in sports goes, that's the only blade 'those against' have to cut into the issue. Do transgender men, after a set period of transition including removal/transformation of the penis and continuous hormone treatment, still have a 100% clear-cut advantage over cis-gendered women?

That's the only blade 'they' can cut with.

And on that, more study is needed.
 

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Geelong_Sicko said:
Is this thread about transgender in general or transgender in SPORT specifically? Because as far as fairness in sports goes, that's the only blade 'those against' have to cut into the issue. Do transgender men, after a set period of transition including removal/transformation of the penis and continuous hormone treatment, still have a 100% clear-cut advantage over cis-gendered women?

That's the only blade 'they' can cut with.

And on that, more study is needed.
Click to expand...
It's also the only one that matters as long as there isn't a culture of shaming someone who misgenders a person without any ill intentions since adults should be able to live their lives however they want to as long as it's not hurting anyone else.
 
Tayl0r said:
It's also the only one that matters as long as there isn't a culture of shaming someone who misgenders a person without any ill intentions since adults should be able to live their lives however they want to as long as it's not hurting anyone else.
Click to expand...

True. Mistakes will ALWAYS happen. Some people are slower to adapt to change on the fly. Many other areas of my life are moderately f*cked but I've been blessed in that way. Most cultural changes are 'Right, fair enough' in my world as long as its not hurting anyone else. You phrased it well enough.

Others, they see change and they can't get used to it. Just can't get their heads around it. It lends itself to an innate conservatism not through political choice but through a mental inflexibility and these are the unfortunates who get labeled bigots, homophobes and worse.

I get it that they're not motivated by actual hatred when they misgender someone. They're just slow in adapting to the change. In that I think there needs to be understanding on all sides.
 
JCHolmes said:
Thread title should just be changed to mentally unwell/gender dysphoria.
Click to expand...

Like it or not, some are unhappy with their birth gender and will endeavour to change this and be legally recognised for it. You might be uncomfortable with this. You might not understand the reasoning. You might even be the minority who actively hates everyone and every thing that doesn't fit into your own world view.

It's not going to change a thing. People will still be unhappy with their birth gender. They will change this in order to better their own lives. You can either understand that it doesn't affect you in the slightest and carry on with your own life or you can moan about it and it will have no affect anyway.
 
My three year old son asked at what age he would turn into a squid, and I said never. Then he asked "what animal will I become" and when I said "you will always be a person" he looked like he was about to cry. If this continued into adulthood I would have him committed. But maybe by then there will be surgery for it, and he can have ten tentacles and squirt ink.
 
its free real estate said:
My three year old son asked at what age he would turn into a squid, and I said never. Then he asked "what animal will I become" and when I said "you will always be a person" he looked like he was about to cry. If this continued into adulthood I would have him committed. But maybe by then there will be surgery for it, and he can have ten tentacles and squirt ink.
Click to expand...

Honest question - if your son was (hypothetically) displaying all the early signs of gender dysphoria and this continued until he was of an age where he could legally make his own decisions. What if he wanted to fully transition and become female? Coprrect Correct me if I'm wrong but I gather you'd be against early action such as puberty blockers and the like - but what would you do if he wanted to transition?

Would you disown him? Would you tell him that though you disapprove in the end he has his own life to lead however he sees fit as whoever he sees fit?

What would you do?
 
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Geelong_Sicko said:
Honest question - if your son was (hypothetically) displaying all the early signs of gender dysphoria and this continued until he was of an age where he could legally make his own decisions. What if he wanted to fully transition and become female? Coprrect Correct me if I'm wrong but I gather you'd be against early action such as puberty blockers and the like - but what would you do if he wanted to transition?

Would you disown him? Would you tell him that though you disapprove in the end he has his own life to lead however he sees fit as whoever he sees fit?

What would you do?
Click to expand...
I’d slip him T in his breakfast cereal to snap him out of it.

The key part is choosing a sane partner, as mental illness is hereditary.
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
Honest question - if your son was (hypothetically) displaying all the early signs of gender dysphoria and this continued until he was of an age where he could legally make his own decisions. What if he wanted to fully transition and become female? Coprrect Correct me if I'm wrong but I gather you'd be against early action such as puberty blockers and the like - but what would you do if he wanted to transition?

Would you disown him? Would you tell him that though you disapprove in the end he has his own life to lead however he sees fit as whoever he sees fit?

What would you do?
Click to expand...
Can you ever transition fully to another gender? ie. xx to xy or vice versa and what percentage of humans when born are neither? A quick google search came up with .05% are Hermaphrodites. What about bone density/hip structure/muscle mass/brain functions.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/201...-significant-differences-brains-men-and-women

The only area of human activity I have a problem with in the transgender space is former males who have gone through puberty and transition and then compete in female athletic/sporting activities, it is plainly an unfair advantage in most sports.
 

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jason pm said:
Can you ever transition fully to another gender? ie. xx to xy or vice versa and what percentage of humans when born are neither? A quick google search came up with .05% are Hermaphrodites. What about bone density/hip structure/muscle mass/brain functions.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/201...-significant-differences-brains-men-and-women

The only area of human activity I have a problem with in the transgender space is former males who have gone through puberty and transition and then compete in female athletic/sporting activities, it is plainly an unfair advantage in most sports.
Click to expand...

There is no other story that incites more hate then a story about a transgender person participating in sport, with the exception of stories relating to transgender bathroom use or in President Trumps World his hate for transgender people serving in the military.

Let’s remove the words Transgender, Laurel, Hannah or Mack Beggs out of the conversation for a minute and let’s look at some of the medical consequences that occur when an XY male suffers low levels of testosterone;
When a man has low testosterone, or hypogonadism, he may experience:
-Reduced sex drive
-Erectile dysfunction
-Low sperm count
-Enlarged or swollen breast tissue

Over time, these symptoms may develop in the following ways:
-Loss of body hair
-Loss of muscle bulk
-Loss of strength
-Increased body fat

Chronic, or ongoing, low testosterone may lead to osteoporosis, mood swings, reduced energy, and testicular shrinkage. None of these medical consequences are performance enhancing. No castrated XY male has ever broken a world record or even competed at the elite level of sports.

There is no doubt that XY Males on average have an advantage in strength speed and endurance. Just looking at all sports world sporting records clearly shows this to be true. Research has found the difference between men’s and women’s world records as being 10 to 12%.

The medications administered to transitioning XY females are powerful drugs the same drugs used to chemically castrate sex offenders the same drugs used to chemically castrate prostate cancer sufferers.

This treatment changed my body from a 100kg former dual international male athletes body into a 57kg size 6 transitioned woman’s body with my body suffering permanent severe post menopausal symptoms including complete muscle atrophy and over 200 medical complications in my body every day of my life.

At this point, it is important to point out that testosterone is not exclusively a male hormone. It is produced by both males and females in the testicles and ovaries (and also in the adrenal glands), however males need to produce it in higher quantities as they have XY androgen receptors. XX androgen receptors are highly sensitive to testosterone, requiring much less testosterone to equate the same level of health. However, both male and female elite athletes also produce testosterone in higher quantities than the ‘normal’ population, and there is also a significant amount of overlap between testosterone levels in male and female elite athletes.

The maintenance of endogenous testosterone levels is essential to basic health in both men and women. An XY male who transitions to XY female has had their major source of endogenous testosterone (the testicles) taken away, so needs to take synthetic testosterone in order to maintain basic health.

The US University of Rochester’s online medical library states that the normal ‘male’ range for testosterone is between 9.7nmol/l and 38.1nmol/l; and between 0.5nmol/l and 2.4nmol/l for ‘females’. The US government’s National Library of Medicine agrees with the University of Rochester’s ranges with regards to ‘women’, but puts normal ‘male’ levels at between 10.4 nmol/l and 34.7nmol/l. So individuals with XY chromosomes need a higher level of testosterone those with XX chromosomes to maintain basic health, due to their androgen receptor response.

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/ency...ontentTypeID=167&ContentID=testosterone_total

As these analyses show, these levels can vary with age,
https://www.healthline.com/health/low-testosterone/testosterone-levels-by-age#Adolescence3 but also due to occupation.

A 2014 study, ‘Endocrine profiles in 693 elite athletes in the post-competition setting’, found that 16.5% of the ‘male’ athletes had low testosterone levels, and 13.7% of the ‘females’ had high testosterone levels, ‘with complete overlap between the sexes’.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24593684/

The report concluded: ‘The IOC definition of a woman as one who has a ‘normal’ testosterone level is untenable’. In other words, elite athletes have testosterone levels that differ widely from those that might be considered ‘normal’ in the general public population.

We know that the testosterone levels of high-performance female athletes go up from years of competing that this makes conception during competition or after retirement very hard, until those bodies come back to their natural state to be able to conceive a child, this is very common.

We also know that an XY chromosome body takes six to eight times the level of testosterone to equate the same levels of ‘health’ as somebody who is XX. This is completely separate to the body’s sex.

The problem has been that sport failed to realise that XY women continue to need XY levels of testosterone in order to maintain basic health following transition. Instead, it required XY females to peg their testosterone levels to the much lower XX female levels, due to the myth that XY females would enjoy a performance advantage due to their extra endogenous testosterone.

In effect, sport was blinded by its history with exogenous testosterone, which has historically been used to enhance performance. This requirement to drop their natural, endogenous testosterone levels to XX female levels is what has physically harmed myself and others.

This is where everybody got it wrong and continues to get it wrong. We are the only athletes in the world that can medically illustrate, physiologically, how the body breaks down over time and what happens to the human physiology when testosterone values get down to a certain level or is removed, and the body is no longer able to generate any hormones. For all other athletes that have been discussed in this space, their testosterone levels are their ‘normal’, and they are healthy.


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Geelong_Sicko said:
Like it or not, some are unhappy with their birth gender and will endeavour to change this and be legally recognised for it. You might be uncomfortable with this. You might not understand the reasoning. You might even be the minority who actively hates everyone and every thing that doesn't fit into your own world view.

It's not going to change a thing. People will still be unhappy with their birth gender. They will change this in order to better their own lives. You can either understand that it doesn't affect you in the slightest and carry on with your own life or you can moan about it and it will have no affect anyway.
Click to expand...

Gender is a reflection of our brains architecture. It is immutable and nobody is confused about their own gender. Every adult transgender person in the world is evidence of this.

Despite everyone, everything, everywhere telling them all through childhood and beyond that they were the gender they were assigned at birth, trans folk remain fixed in their gender. Despite all of the hardships, all the losses and difficulty a trans person will remain resolute.

This is because nothing can change our gender and to be forced to live in the wrong gender and for many trans folk, to have bodily features which don't conform to their gender is an ongoing source of extreme suffering.

If somebody had forced a "sex change" upon you in your childhood or teen years, you would never have stopped fighting to regain your identity and a body which reflected your true gender identity. You know this would be a fact.

The World Health Organisation, hundreds of medical researchers, all the world's major children's hospitals and psychology bodies, etc who all concur that gender is natal and trans kids should be affirmed and supported.

I watched the segment from the Project recently, It was very clear that @ScottMorrisonMP's position is not "let kids be kids". It's "let kids be who their parents force them to be". It's shameful that our politicians are lagging so far behind science and world's best practice.

Kids don't take any hormones until they're around 16 years of age. This follows a period of years on puberty blocking hormones and is all carried out under stringent clinical control and observation based on robust science and decades of clinical experience.


Here's how it works for you people: "You're too young to know your gender when you're a child" . . . "You're too young for blockers when you hit puberty" . . . "You're too young for cross hormones at 16" . . . "You're too young for gender confirmation surgery at 18" .. . . Then in adulthood "Face facts, you're a man, not a woman, if you were transgender you would have said something when you were younger". The truth is that people who hold your point of view never want transgender people to live their gender truth.

The American Psychological Association defines gender identity as, “A person’s deeply-felt, inherent sense of being a boy, a man, or a male; a girl, a woman, or a female; or an alternative gender (e.g., genderqueer, gender nonconforming, gender neutral) that may or may not correspond to a person’s sex assigned at birth or to a person’s primary or secondary sex characteristics” (American Psychological Association, Am Psychol 70(9):832–864, 2015). Here we review the evidence that gender identity and related socially defined gender constructs are influenced in part by innate factors including genes. Based on the data reviewed, we hypothesize that gender identity is a multifactorial complex trait with a heritable polygenic component. We argue that increasing the awareness of the biological diversity underlying gender identity development is relevant to all domains of social, medical, and neuroscience research and foundational for reducing health disparities and promoting human-rights protections for gender minorities.




On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
kirsti said:
There is no other story that incites more hate then a story about a transgender person participating in sport, with the exception of stories relating to transgender bathroom use or in President Trumps World his hate for transgender people serving in the military.

Let’s remove the words Transgender, Laurel, Hannah or Mack Beggs out of the conversation for a minute and let’s look at some of the medical consequences that occur when an XY male suffers low levels of testosterone;
When a man has low testosterone, or hypogonadism, he may experience:
-Reduced sex drive
-Erectile dysfunction
-Low sperm count
-Enlarged or swollen breast tissue

Over time, these symptoms may develop in the following ways:
-Loss of body hair
-Loss of muscle bulk
-Loss of strength
-Increased body fat

Chronic, or ongoing, low testosterone may lead to osteoporosis, mood swings, reduced energy, and testicular shrinkage. None of these medical consequences are performance enhancing. No castrated XY male has ever broken a world record or even competed at the elite level of sports.

There is no doubt that XY Males on average have an advantage in strength speed and endurance. Just looking at all sports world sporting records clearly shows this to be true. Research has found the difference between men’s and women’s world records as being 10 to 12%.

The medications administered to transitioning XY females are powerful drugs the same drugs used to chemically castrate sex offenders the same drugs used to chemically castrate prostate cancer sufferers.

This treatment changed my body from a 100kg former dual international male athletes body into a 57kg size 6 transitioned woman’s body with my body suffering permanent severe post menopausal symptoms including complete muscle atrophy and over 200 medical complications in my body every day of my life.

At this point, it is important to point out that testosterone is not exclusively a male hormone. It is produced by both males and females in the testicles and ovaries (and also in the adrenal glands), however males need to produce it in higher quantities as they have XY androgen receptors. XX androgen receptors are highly sensitive to testosterone, requiring much less testosterone to equate the same level of health. However, both male and female elite athletes also produce testosterone in higher quantities than the ‘normal’ population, and there is also a significant amount of overlap between testosterone levels in male and female elite athletes.

The maintenance of endogenous testosterone levels is essential to basic health in both men and women. An XY male who transitions to XY female has had their major source of endogenous testosterone (the testicles) taken away, so needs to take synthetic testosterone in order to maintain basic health.

The US University of Rochester’s online medical library states that the normal ‘male’ range for testosterone is between 9.7nmol/l and 38.1nmol/l; and between 0.5nmol/l and 2.4nmol/l for ‘females’. The US government’s National Library of Medicine agrees with the University of Rochester’s ranges with regards to ‘women’, but puts normal ‘male’ levels at between 10.4 nmol/l and 34.7nmol/l. So individuals with XY chromosomes need a higher level of testosterone those with XX chromosomes to maintain basic health, due to their androgen receptor response.

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/ency...ontentTypeID=167&ContentID=testosterone_total

As these analyses show, these levels can vary with age,
https://www.healthline.com/health/low-testosterone/testosterone-levels-by-age#Adolescence3 but also due to occupation.

A 2014 study, ‘Endocrine profiles in 693 elite athletes in the post-competition setting’, found that 16.5% of the ‘male’ athletes had low testosterone levels, and 13.7% of the ‘females’ had high testosterone levels, ‘with complete overlap between the sexes’.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24593684/

The report concluded: ‘The IOC definition of a woman as one who has a ‘normal’ testosterone level is untenable’. In other words, elite athletes have testosterone levels that differ widely from those that might be considered ‘normal’ in the general public population.

We know that the testosterone levels of high-performance female athletes go up from years of competing that this makes conception during competition or after retirement very hard, until those bodies come back to their natural state to be able to conceive a child, this is very common.

We also know that an XY chromosome body takes six to eight times the level of testosterone to equate the same levels of ‘health’ as somebody who is XX. This is completely separate to the body’s sex.

The problem has been that sport failed to realise that XY women continue to need XY levels of testosterone in order to maintain basic health following transition. Instead, it required XY females to peg their testosterone levels to the much lower XX female levels, due to the myth that XY females would enjoy a performance advantage due to their extra endogenous testosterone.

In effect, sport was blinded by its history with exogenous testosterone, which has historically been used to enhance performance. This requirement to drop their natural, endogenous testosterone levels to XX female levels is what has physically harmed myself and others.

This is where everybody got it wrong and continues to get it wrong. We are the only athletes in the world that can medically illustrate, physiologically, how the body breaks down over time and what happens to the human physiology when testosterone values get down to a certain level or is removed, and the body is no longer able to generate any hormones. For all other athletes that have been discussed in this space, their testosterone levels are their ‘normal’, and they are healthy.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
Click to expand...
kirsti said:
Gender is a reflection of our brains architecture. It is immutable and nobody is confused about their own gender. Every adult transgender person in the world is evidence of this.

Despite everyone, everything, everywhere telling them all through childhood and beyond that they were the gender they were assigned at birth, trans folk remain fixed in their gender. Despite all of the hardships, all the losses and difficulty a trans person will remain resolute.

This is because nothing can change our gender and to be forced to live in the wrong gender and for many trans folk, to have bodily features which don't conform to their gender is an ongoing source of extreme suffering.

If somebody had forced a "sex change" upon you in your childhood or teen years, you would never have stopped fighting to regain your identity and a body which reflected your true gender identity. You know this would be a fact.

The World Health Organisation, hundreds of medical researchers, all the world's major children's hospitals and psychology bodies, etc who all concur that gender is natal and trans kids should be affirmed and supported.

I watched the segment from the Project recently, It was very clear that @ScottMorrisonMP's position is not "let kids be kids". It's "let kids be who their parents force them to be". It's shameful that our politicians are lagging so far behind science and world's best practice.

Kids don't take any hormones until they're around 16 years of age. This follows a period of years on puberty blocking hormones and is all carried out under stringent clinical control and observation based on robust science and decades of clinical experience.


Here's how it works for you people: "You're too young to know your gender when you're a child" . . . "You're too young for blockers when you hit puberty" . . . "You're too young for cross hormones at 16" . . . "You're too young for gender confirmation surgery at 18" .. . . Then in adulthood "Face facts, you're a man, not a woman, if you were transgender you would have said something when you were younger". The truth is that people who hold your point of view never want transgender people to live their gender truth.

The American Psychological Association defines gender identity as, “A person’s deeply-felt, inherent sense of being a boy, a man, or a male; a girl, a woman, or a female; or an alternative gender (e.g., genderqueer, gender nonconforming, gender neutral) that may or may not correspond to a person’s sex assigned at birth or to a person’s primary or secondary sex characteristics” (American Psychological Association, Am Psychol 70(9):832–864, 2015). Here we review the evidence that gender identity and related socially defined gender constructs are influenced in part by innate factors including genes. Based on the data reviewed, we hypothesize that gender identity is a multifactorial complex trait with a heritable polygenic component. We argue that increasing the awareness of the biological diversity underlying gender identity development is relevant to all domains of social, medical, and neuroscience research and foundational for reducing health disparities and promoting human-rights protections for gender minorities.




On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
Click to expand...
Thanks so much kirsti, you have educated me. I hope you have/are having a happy healthy rewarding life.
 
kirsti said:
Gender is a reflection of our brains architecture. It is immutable and nobody is confused about their own gender. Every adult transgender person in the world is evidence of this.

Despite everyone, everything, everywhere telling them all through childhood and beyond that they were the gender they were assigned at birth, trans folk remain fixed in their gender. Despite all of the hardships, all the losses and difficulty a trans person will remain resolute.

This is because nothing can change our gender and to be forced to live in the wrong gender and for many trans folk, to have bodily features which don't conform to their gender is an ongoing source of extreme suffering.

If somebody had forced a "sex change" upon you in your childhood or teen years, you would never have stopped fighting to regain your identity and a body which reflected your true gender identity. You know this would be a fact.

The World Health Organisation, hundreds of medical researchers, all the world's major children's hospitals and psychology bodies, etc who all concur that gender is natal and trans kids should be affirmed and supported.

I watched the segment from the Project recently, It was very clear that @ScottMorrisonMP's position is not "let kids be kids". It's "let kids be who their parents force them to be". It's shameful that our politicians are lagging so far behind science and world's best practice.

Kids don't take any hormones until they're around 16 years of age. This follows a period of years on puberty blocking hormones and is all carried out under stringent clinical control and observation based on robust science and decades of clinical experience.


Here's how it works for you people: "You're too young to know your gender when you're a child" . . . "You're too young for blockers when you hit puberty" . . . "You're too young for cross hormones at 16" . . . "You're too young for gender confirmation surgery at 18" .. . . Then in adulthood "Face facts, you're a man, not a woman, if you were transgender you would have said something when you were younger". The truth is that people who hold your point of view never want transgender people to live their gender truth.

The American Psychological Association defines gender identity as, “A person’s deeply-felt, inherent sense of being a boy, a man, or a male; a girl, a woman, or a female; or an alternative gender (e.g., genderqueer, gender nonconforming, gender neutral) that may or may not correspond to a person’s sex assigned at birth or to a person’s primary or secondary sex characteristics” (American Psychological Association, Am Psychol 70(9):832–864, 2015). Here we review the evidence that gender identity and related socially defined gender constructs are influenced in part by innate factors including genes. Based on the data reviewed, we hypothesize that gender identity is a multifactorial complex trait with a heritable polygenic component. We argue that increasing the awareness of the biological diversity underlying gender identity development is relevant to all domains of social, medical, and neuroscience research and foundational for reducing health disparities and promoting human-rights protections for gender minorities.




On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
Click to expand...
The thing I find most interesting about the changing medical definitions is how they often clash with the more "activist" theories. Medically, we know that men and women's brains are slightly different (what we don't know is much more than what we do know though) and it might explain non-corresponding gender identity. However, some will argue black and blue that men and women are the same, and that the idea of biological differences in the brain is just a misogynistic patriarchal construction...
 
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kirsti said:
...Here's how it works for you people: "You're too young to know your gender when you're a child" . . . "You're too young for blockers when you hit puberty" . . . "You're too young for cross hormones at 16" . . . "You're too young for gender confirmation surgery at 18" .. . . Then in adulthood "Face facts, you're a man, not a woman, if you were transgender you would have said something when you were younger". The truth is that people who hold your point of view never want transgender people to live their gender truth...
Click to expand...

Is this directed at me? I thought all this time I was arguing for the right of all transgender to live out their lives as they see fit, and for the rest of society to recognise this and adapt. Don't mistake me recognising that some are slow to adapt with me saying that it's okay for society to start blocking people from living out their own gender truths.

That has not been and never was part of my argument.

Apologies if you misquoted me. This just stuck out to me - I thought you were giving me a slappin'
 
Geelong_Sicko said:
Is this directed at me? I thought all this time I was arguing for the right of all transgender to live out their lives as they see fit, and for the rest of society to recognise this and adapt. Don't mistake me recognising that some are slow to adapt with me saying that it's okay for society to start blocking people from living out their own gender truths.

That has not been and never was part of my argument.

Apologies if you misquoted me. This just stuck out to me - I thought you were giving me a slappin'
Click to expand...

No not directed at you soz, you are awesome X


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Gough said:
I'd be interested in seeing how many of those who are loud and proud in their distaste for all things AFLW are also very concerned about who should and shouldn't be playing the game.
Click to expand...
ahh gough coming up with the strawman. these two are not reliant upon one another. just because you have a.dislike of womens afl doesnt mean you cant state the.view that womens sports should be left to real women.
 
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