Transgender

[ShanDog]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Gethelred]

Arguing about Kenyan runners and similar is whataboutism at its finest.

Not quoting the person you're addressing is cowardice at its weakest.

 

[Scotland]

Not quoting the person you're addressing is cowardice at its weakest.

Dry your tears. I'm not going to go back pages just to quote you or Better Loosen Up.

 

[Gethelred]

Dry your tears. I'm not going to go back pages just to quote you or Better Loosen Up.

You've something you want to say to me, say it to me. I won't bite.

Also, don't think you know what whataboutism is, if you think that's whataboutism.

 

[Stokey]

So trans men vs trans women then?

What is your issue with this? Isn't this equity?

 

[Scotland]

All the parallels are silly.

Sub 10s 100m runners are almost exclusively of West African origin but none are actually from West Africa. If West African nations had the resources devoted to track and field that US colleges and their Olympic committee do then that would probably be different.

Yet for all the nationalities, ethnicities, heights, weights, star signs in the world only one woman has ever run 10.5s, and some believe that was wind assisted. That wouldn't have won a semi at the last Olympics. You can make the competition "fair" by banning people of West African background (so racism in the name of inclusiveness, sounds very 2022) or anyone lucky enough to attend a college that competes in NCAA division 1 athletics and the fastest 100m runners are still going to be men.

Maybe, just maybe, the people at FINA (and similar) who make decisions about transgender participation take this under consideration. I mean Laurel Hubbard cleared 120kg in the snatch at the Comm Games and the next best was 113 - but she got injured. She had previously cleared 12kg more than the best clean and jerk too.

In her own words: "What people don't realise is I actually stopped lifting in 2001 when I was 23 because it just became too much to bear ... just the pressure of trying to fit into a world that perhaps wasn't really set up for people like myself''.

After living as a man for 35 years, Hubbard began transitioning to female through hormonal treatment around 2012.

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

So this person stopped training for a decade, transitioned then after taking it up again was a medal contender in female competition in her 40s. And people want to argue that physical advantage is lost because of hormone therapy.

Sporting bodies are right to push back at this juncture. The science is not in.

 

[Gough]

I see Katherine Deves has reactivated her social media now she's not trying to con her way into parliament and is running a lap of honour on this change.

 

[Jafa]

Looks like he's still pre transition if that profile photo is himself.

I think he was a her in that photo??

 

[Gralin]

Looks like he's still pre transition if that profile photo is himself.

The rugby photo was pre transition as a cis woman
Their twitter profile pic is post transition as a man

 

[Gralin]

What is your issue with this? Isn't this equity?

Stick to the tinfoil bullshit Stokey you appear less dumb when you do

 

[Gethelred]

All the parallels are silly.

Sub 10s 100m runners are almost exclusively of West African origin but none are actually from West Africa. If West African nations had the resources devoted to track and field that US colleges and their Olympic committee do then that would probably be different.

Yet for all the nationalities, ethnicities, heights, weights, star signs in the world only one woman has ever run 10.5s, and some believe that was wind assisted. That wouldn't have won a semi at the last Olympics. You can make the competition "fair" by banning people of West African background (so racism in the name of inclusiveness, sounds very 2022) or anyone lucky enough to attend a college that competes in NCAA division 1 athletics and the fastest 100m runners are still going to be men.

Maybe, just maybe, the people at FINA (and similar) who make decisions about transgender participation take this under consideration. I mean Laurel Hubbard cleared 120kg in the snatch at the Comm Games and the next best was 113 - but she got injured. She had previously cleared 12kg more than the best clean and jerk too.

In her own words: "What people don't realise is I actually stopped lifting in 2001 when I was 23 because it just became too much to bear ... just the pressure of trying to fit into a world that perhaps wasn't really set up for people like myself''.

After living as a man for 35 years, Hubbard began transitioning to female through hormonal treatment around 2012.

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

So this person stopped training for a decade, transitioned then after taking it up again was a medal contender in female competition in her 40s. And people want to argue that physical advantage is lost because of hormone therapy.

Sporting bodies are right to push back at this juncture. The science is not in.

"I'm going to make a parallel between post transition testosterone blocking trans women and cis men's best ever times; however, any parallel not approved of by me is silly".

Convenient?

 

[Gough]

In the interest of fairness, should our gold medal in the swimming stand given that Shayna Jack could still have some residual advantage gained from the drugs that she took to cheat?

 

[Chief]

In the interest of fairness, should our gold medal in the swimming stand given that Shayna Jack could still have some residual advantage gained from the drugs that she took to cheat?

I reckon it should be "take PEDs, out for life".

Get a job at Coles and think yourself lucky.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

I reckon it should be "take PEDs, out for life".

Get a job at Coles and think yourself lucky.

Agree with this actually shouldn’t be betting second or third chances to cheat

 

[Better Loosen Up]

The rugby photo was pre transition as a cis woman
Their twitter profile pic is post transition as a man

Right!

 

[Gralin]

Right!

Right but the UK gender crits are sharing that photo as evidence that trans women can't play rugby with cis women, except it was a cis woman in the photo not a trans woman

Which again, they don't care about any women, they are attacking women, they are taking rights away from all women, because they actually want trans people dead.

Sport is just the first step for these ones and they don't care about the truth at all, just the end result

 

[Gralin]

I think we are talking past each other now but I appreciate the Convo. It is definitely a complex debate

Ok so let my try this another way.

Cisgender and transgender are legitimate terms that have meaning.

Biological woman or female when it comes to humans is not as clear given the nature of human biology.

An example of this is how intersex athletes have been and continue to be treated today.

Cis woman means someone who was raised that way from birth and identifies as a woman
Trans woman means someone who was not raised that way from birth but identifies as a woman now

Its not discriminatory or derogatory and it doesn't mean that trans women aren't women.

No two people are the same, we are all much more than just our chromosomes or genitals.

Now the language used by the TERFs and to be clear what I mean here, the activist groups that fund antitrans activities, the people that started the women in sport and women's spaces talk, the people who always frame trans women as male sex predators, those TERFs

They hate cis, they say cis is a slur, if they use trans the use it like this transwoman not trans woman

They won't say cis woman they will say biological woman, they will usually call trans women biological males, they dead name, they use pre transition photos, they will use photos that aren't even of trans people

These hateful *ers are actual fascist pricks with the end goal of making it illegal to be trans, they don't care it will kill a bunch of people they want them dead.

I see a lot of their preferred language used in this thread by people that seem completely unaware of what they are doing.

Not surprising as the media is shifting to use that language also. And no its not scientifically accurate to say biological woman, woman is not a biological definition it is a social definition.

What they do is they push that you can't really transition, so they can't really be female so they can't really be women so they must still be men and then that makes sport
They do it with pseudo science, they ignore most of actual biology to do it but that's on purpose, their end goal is eradication so you can't expect good faith arguments

So yeah if we're going to discuss cis and trans women in sport those are the words im going to use because we need to be able to talk clearly about the subject and we should be using words that aren't either wrong or the ones the TERFs want you to use.

 

[the_interloper]

In the interest of fairness, should our gold medal in the swimming stand given that Shayna Jack could still have some residual advantage gained from the drugs that she took to cheat?

This is an interesting topic to me, certainly in MMA the short length of suspensions that used to happen would often be shorter than the long advantage you get from using performance enhancing drugs. This is certainly a grey area, and unfortunately it's basically impossible to know before and after advantages of PED use, as far as I'm aware anyway.

 

[owen87]

Biological woman or female when it comes to humans is not as clear given the nature of human biology.

An example of this is how intersex athletes have been and continue to be treated today.

This is an example where you're making an argument at odds with reality. The exception proves the rule.

How common is intersex? a response to Anne Fausto-Sterling - PubMed

Anne Fausto-Sterling s suggestion that the prevalence of intersex might be as high as 1.7% has attracted wide attention in both the scholarly press and the popular media. Many reviewers are not aware that this figure includes conditions which most clinicians do not recognize as intersex, such as...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Human biology is pretty consistent here, there's a very small number of cases of people who genuinely do not fit biological male or biological female. Caster Semenya is the most high profile athlete in this category.

Whether it's the 1.7% or 0.018% that means somewhere north of 98.3% of humanity does fall in to clear biological male or female categories.

 

[Gralin]

This is an example where you're making an argument at odds with reality. The exception proves the rule.

How common is intersex? a response to Anne Fausto-Sterling - PubMed

Anne Fausto-Sterling s suggestion that the prevalence of intersex might be as high as 1.7% has attracted wide attention in both the scholarly press and the popular media. Many reviewers are not aware that this figure includes conditions which most clinicians do not recognize as intersex, such as...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Human biology is pretty consistent here, there's a very small number of cases of people who genuinely do not fit biological male or biological female. Caster Semenya is the most high profile athlete in this category.

Whether it's the 1.7% or 0.018% that means somewhere north of 98.3% of humanity does fall in to clear biological male or female categories.

The exception doesn't prove the rule, and it's funny how this small % isn't worth worrying about but the trans women in sport small % is

 

[owen87]

The exception doesn't prove the rule

Sure it does. When > 98.3% of the population adhere to binary option, it should tell you that it's pretty representative of the majority of that population.

it's funny how this small % isn't worth worrying about

Sure it is. Semenya (and similar athletes) have had numerous rulings made about what testosterone levels they can or can't have.

the trans women in sport small % is

See above.

 

[Gralin]

Sure it does. When > 98.3% of the population adhere to binary option, it should tell you that it's pretty representative of the majority of that population.



Sure it is. Semenya (and similar athletes) have had numerous rulings made about what testosterone levels they can or can't have.



See above.

Ok let me dumb it down for you then
Biological female is not a neat box
Biological woman isn't even a real term
If you can't bring yourself to say cis woman I'm going to assume you're a TERF from here on out.

As to the other stuff, again I don't see you giving an actual * about the treatment of women

 

[owen87]

Biological woman isn't even a real term

It's exceedingly clear what I'm talking about. You could continue to be disingenuously pedantic about it though, if you like?

Biological female is not a neat box

It is for > 98.3% of females apparently.

If you can't bring yourself to say cis woman I'm going to assume you're a TERF from here on out.

But I wasn't talking about cis women. I was talking about biological females (or women, it's clear either way).

As for the TERF thing, I'd have to be a radical feminist for that to apply, which you're ever so quick to tell me I'm not even a feminist, so regardless of whether I use cis woman or not, I can't be a TERF right?

 

[Gralin]

It's exceedingly clear what I'm talking about. You could continue to be disingenuously pedantic about it though, if you like?

Its exceedingly clear you don't see trans women as women and like to use shitty language

It is for > 98.3% of females apparently.

Not the way you think it is

But I wasn't talking about cis women. I was talking about biological females (or women, it's clear either way).

Yeah keep using that terf language buddy

As for the TERF thing, I'd have to be a radical feminist for that to apply, which you're ever so quick to tell me I'm not even a feminist, so regardless of whether I use cis woman or not, I can't be a TERF right?

I mean the F means fascist in reality so I can use it for you quite happily.

You really really seem to want to use the antitrans language so who am I to argue

 

[owen87]

Its exceedingly clear you don't see trans women as women and like to u

How so? I was very specifically referring to the biological category. If you think using woman versus female is the key word in that sentence then that's on you, no one else.

Not the way you think it

Feel free to provide some scientific sources refuting the figure of 1.7% as the upper limit of genuine intersex people then?

Yeah keep using that terf language buddy

See this is what I was saying the other day. It's 'agree with Gralin' or 'TERF'. There's no middle ground. No debate. Use the exact language Gralin wants, or TERF. Agree with Gralin, or TERF.

I mean the F means fascist in reality so I can use it for you quite happily.

See above. Like when you called Malifice a fascist the other day. He's clearly not. But you repeatedly say it any way.

You really really seem to want to use the antitrans language so who am I to argue

Incorrect. I was referring to biology. I used the term biology. Cis wasn't a relevant term. For your benefit I'll use female/woman and male/man so as to not confuse you or set off your anti-trans-TERF-fascist radar.

Women's sport is a separate category because of the biological implications of puberty for biological males/men versus biological females/women on sports performance.

If someone isn't a biological male/man, there is little-to-no chance they'll undergo male/man puberty and thus benefit from the performance enhancing benefits of that male/man puberty.

Intersex people are different to transgender people. Caster Semenya is different to Laurel Hubbard or Lia Thomas or <insert high profile athlete of choice>. Both intersex and transgender athletes have been subject to various rulings and limitations on their participation in (largely women/female) categories in sport.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

Why do so many conservatives only care about women's sport once trans women get involved?