Transgender

[ShanDog]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[owen87]

I think you talk like someone who is trans exclusionary

You think everyone that doesn't agree with you or use the exact language you believe is correct is a fascist or trans-exclusionary though.

You think saying most people aren't x is a good enough reason to act like nobody is x

Never said nobody is x.

You're using the language the anti trans activists, terfs and GCs use and want you to use.

You're using those labels, not me. You're the one fixated on someone writing biological woman instead of biological female and trying to label them as being anti-trans, a fascist, a TERF, and the most recent;

that's what the people that want to kill trans people

Yes. A very realistic representation of things I've said. As usual.

you don't go hmmm i should look into that you say stop calling me a terf

Because I'm not saying any of the things you like to accuse me of saying. I'm clearly not a fascist. I clearly don't want trans-people to be killed. You simply make it up.

Same thing is happening here

Yes it is. You're calling people fascists. Despite them obviously not being fascists.

You're still being a dick doing that because you're still insisting woman=female with that

No I'm being a dick to you because you're being a pedantic moron pretending that woman/female is the key word in a sentence where I specifically used the word biological in relation to commentary regarding biological differences between sexes, or as it relates to intersex people.

That's not why womens sports were created

Do go on. Why are women's sports in a separate category?

Is woman or female the correct term? Is it sex or gender?

Keep being a dick

I will so long as you do. You could have simply discussed what I was talking about. But instead you fixate on someone writing female instead of woman and decided that literally makes them an anti-trans fascist. Do you understand how far off the deep end you have to be to make that leap?

You don't have to be intersex to have higer than usual testosterone levels, you don't even have to get a benefit from those higher testosterone levels

No, you don't, but generally the range is significantly lower for biological females/women than intersex athletes like Semenya. Semenya's levels are drastically higher than even the highest recognised levels for biological women without a medical condition. When her levels are lowered, her performance decreases. So she benefits from the higher testosterone levels. You should probably read up on her case and learn some more if you want to wade in to an argument about it.

Men are always better because testosterone and trans women are still men so are always better than women

Incorrect.

Do you have any idea how misogynistic and inaccurate that is?

Do you have any idea how incredibly misogynistic you are that you literally shout down women who don't think what you believe they should think, and decide that your views (as a male) are more valid than theirs? How paternalistic. How patriarchal. How misogynistic.

 

[spinynorman]

So what does it look like if transgender people lose the "transgender debate"? What then?

 

[owen87]

So what does it look like if transgender people lose the "transgender debate"? What then?

Wouldn't it depend on what particular issue is being debated at any given time?

 

[Chief]

Is there a difference between sex-based segregation of prisons and race-based segregation of diners and schools?

This is pretty silly.

 

[Gough]

Anti-vaxxers and the freedom movement's new target: the LGBTIQA+ community

As interest in vaccines wanes, major figures and groups are turning to anti-LGBTIQA+, particularly anti-trans, rhetoric and tactics.

www.crikey.com.au

If you're standing back and applauding all this as "common sense" this is the mob you're enabling whether you like it or not.

 

[Pessimistic]

Anti-vaxxers and the freedom movement's new target: the LGBTIQA+ community

As interest in vaccines wanes, major figures and groups are turning to anti-LGBTIQA+, particularly anti-trans, rhetoric and tactics.

www.crikey.com.au

If you're standing back and applauding all this as "common sense" this is the mob you're enabling whether you like it or not.

Fits te description of ‘rent a mob’

 

[Chief]

Fits te description of ‘rent a mob’

On one of my lefty anarchist videos or podcasts they were talking about the figures that move through these groups. MLM shills who just moved their grift to anti-lockdown. Neo-Nazis whose groups were outed and kicked out of their digs saw the opportunity to rebuild their little gangs from the disaffected.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

No one will agree there will always be two sides to it. I’m just happy the world champs are on and we don’t have to worry about any of it.

 

[Saint]

On one of my lefty anarchist videos or podcasts they were talking about the figures that move through these groups. MLM shills who just moved their grift to anti-lockdown. Neo-Nazis whose groups were outed and kicked out of their digs saw the opportunity to rebuild their little gangs from the disaffected.

I doubt the disaffected will move to "trans people took our jobs" territory.

But the religious nutters are certainly using trans rights to decry everything else under the sun that's going wrong in their eyes. Mass shooters - decay of the family cos of LGBTQ. Inflation - decay of the family cos of LGBTQ.

 

[Punt rd end]

Do you have any idea how incredibly misogynistic you are that you literally shout down women who don't think what you believe they should think, and decide that your views (as a male) are more valid than theirs? How paternalistic. How patriarchal. How misogynistic.

Standing ovation

 

[chopflop]

This is pretty silly.

Well let me give you an example
Replace trans with black and you have the segregation argument from the 60s, from the keep it side, you know the racists
Won't someone think of the poor white women that might be forced to use the same toilet

I agree. It's a terrible parallel to make and not one i brought up. I was offering to nuance the substitution arguments that Gralin was making.
There is a lot of cheerleading and navel gazing in this thread. Not a lot of wanting to have a discussion in good faith.

So i am tapping out and will leave you all to it.

FWIW, Gralin and yourself seem to have some fixation with the ALT-right and their opportunism within these debates and i am sure that is true to an extent (that they want to hi-jack the narrative)... But it isn't all some far-right conspiracy. I mean, i posted a comment on an Age article from Peter Singer that said we should discuss these complexities openly and like adults. I know it's a right-wing catch-all but Gralin you literally virtue-signalled Peter Singer. Like the Peter Singer.

Back to the hawks board for me to talk footy.

 

[Chief]

It's a terrible parallel to make and not one i brought up. I was offering to nuance the substitution arguments that Gralin was making.

No it looks like you were creating a straw man.

 

[chopflop]

No it looks like you were creating a straw man.

Sure.

 

[owen87]

Sorry if this has been posted already and I had a pretty good look but can anyone supply me with FINA’s methodology to come to this conclusion. What research or science they have used to form their decisions? It feels currently to me this decision is made based on the individuals opinions rather then actual research, but I don’t want to jump to that conclusion.

I’m not an expert in the topic matter and want to see a more detailed explanation before solidifying my stance. Similarly, if anyone has a few well researched pieces on transgender athletes overall I would like to read through them. I’m finding a lot of the stuff I’m currently reading through are rubbish pieces full of the authors opinions and extreme viewpoints.

Nope, FINA have not provided that data.

They've claimed their medical and science panel have some kind of supporting data, but didn't deign to actually provide it.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Nope, FINA have not provided that data.

They've claimed their medical and science panel have some kind of supporting data, but didn't deign to actually provide it.

Not sure they have to provide it. They are there to govern their sport and ensure fairness, and that's the key word. If fairness is compromised they had to do something whether people like it or not. FINA are just the first sport that's it.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

On one of my lefty anarchist videos or podcasts they were talking about the figures that move through these groups. MLM shills who just moved their grift to anti-lockdown. Neo-Nazis whose groups were outed and kicked out of their digs saw the opportunity to rebuild their little gangs from the disaffected.

This is pure fantasy and perhaps the reason you have some of the biases you have.

 

[owen87]

Not sure they have to provide it. They are there to govern their sport and ensure fairness, and that's the key word. If fairness is compromised they had to do something whether people like it or not. FINA are just the first sport that's it.

The onus is on FINA to provide data supporting their claim IMO.

No one would know if fairness is or isn’t compromised without the data being available for open and independent review.

If the data shows what they say it shows, there shouldn’t be an issue having it be openly available.

 

[radiojake]

Saw some loser in the city before with a Sandwich board asking "Trans Athletes in Woman's Sport: Fair or Unfair?"

With a mic and camera crew in tow obviously getting Vox pop from the general public and all I wanted to do was ask since when did he actually care about women's sport ? Because I doubt he ******* does

 

[LukeParkerno1]

The onus is on FINA to provide data supporting their claim IMO.

No one would know if fairness is or isn’t compromised without the data being available for open and independent review.

If the data shows what they say it shows, there shouldn’t be an issue having it be openly available.

They don’t have to release anything publicly. Nothing wrong with keeping the findings in house. The ban hasn’t changed the world champs in fact it’s been better. Good events and the athletes competing on a level playing field.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

Saw some loser in the city before with a Sandwich board asking "Trans Athletes in Woman's Sport: Fair or Unfair?"

With a mic and camera crew in tow obviously getting Vox pop from the general public and all I wanted to do was ask since when did he actually care about women's sport ? Because I doubt he ******* does

Some people care about others though. Don't have to care about women's sport to care about the rights of the women who compete in it.

 

[owen87]

They don’t have to release anything publicly. Nothing wrong with keeping the findings in house. The ban hasn’t changed the world champs in fact it’s been better. Good events and the athletes competing on a level playing field.

Which swimmers aren’t at the world champs because of this ban that would otherwise have been? What’s made this world champs better than previous ones?

Given they’re the global governing body for a global sport, they should release their data.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Which swimmers aren’t at the world champs because of this ban that would otherwise have been? What’s made this world champs better than previous ones?

Given they’re the global governing body for a global sport, they should release their data.

The fact that the swimmers don’t have to worry about it for starters and a decision has been made. It’s over and they listened to the experts and have made a call to protect the sport and thank goodness for that. They don’t have to release anything what good does it do just to get activists saying this is wrong this is right. Honestly they can’t win keep it in house.

 

[radiojake]

Some people care about others though. Don't have to care about women's sport to care about the rights of the women who compete in it.

It's also not hard to see people taking advantage of a hot topic to help spread some pretty hateful propaganda

 

[TheBigHorne]

I find it interesting how when transgender athletes win such a minor amount and compete * all in the Olympics are a problem.



Yet somehow there's no height restrictions in basketball despite all the best players being above average male height.

 

[Gralin]

You think everyone that doesn't agree with you or use the exact language you believe is correct is a fascist or trans-exclusionary though.



Never said nobody is x.



You're using those labels, not me. You're the one fixated on someone writing biological woman instead of biological female and trying to label them as being anti-trans, a fascist, a TERF, and the most recent;



Yes. A very realistic representation of things I've said. As usual.



Because I'm not saying any of the things you like to accuse me of saying. I'm clearly not a fascist. I clearly don't want trans-people to be killed. You simply make it up.



Yes it is. You're calling people fascists. Despite them obviously not being fascists.



No I'm being a dick to you because you're being a pedantic moron pretending that woman/female is the key word in a sentence where I specifically used the word biological in relation to commentary regarding biological differences between sexes, or as it relates to intersex people.



Do go on. Why are women's sports in a separate category?

Is woman or female the correct term? Is it sex or gender?



I will so long as you do. You could have simply discussed what I was talking about. But instead you fixate on someone writing female instead of woman and decided that literally makes them an anti-trans fascist. Do you understand how far off the deep end you have to be to make that leap?



No, you don't, but generally the range is significantly lower for biological females/women than intersex athletes like Semenya. Semenya's levels are drastically higher than even the highest recognised levels for biological women without a medical condition. When her levels are lowered, her performance decreases. So she benefits from the higher testosterone levels. You should probably read up on her case and learn some more if you want to wade in to an argument about it.



Incorrect.



Do you have any idea how incredibly misogynistic you are that you literally shout down women who don't think what you believe they should think, and decide that your views (as a male) are more valid than theirs? How paternalistic. How patriarchal. How misogynistic.

Selectively quoting to make s**t up again I see.