Transgender

[Gralin]

Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Crankyhawk]

I'll be specific.

It was crucial that all sides of the debate were given an opportunity to present their views – including from interviewee Dr Spencer, who argues there should be no medical intervention before a child goes through puberty and advocates what's called "watchful waiting".

Psychiatrist lodges human rights complaint over transgender health care

A Queensland psychiatrist who was stood down from her position at a government hospital is lodging a human rights complaint

www.outinperth.com

I will wait to see how they are presented but when the article is talking about it being crucial to present all views and doesn't mention transphobia but does mention Spencer....

I suppose one needs to mention the opinions that are out there - given that she currently has a position of some influence (more than being random nuffie) i think it is positive to shine a light on her belief system and see if it stands up. Doubt she will get to make unopposed statements (will cop criticisms if I am incorrect)

 

[Gralin]

So if they introduced Spencer and add in a descriptor of "...who has been accused of transphobia," would that suffice?

My issue is this idea that all views must be heard.

Like would they be saying that if the show was on vaccines?

Would they get Robert Kennedy Jnr on with that kind of thinking?

Like I said I'll wait for the show to see how it goes.

I suppose one needs to mention the opinions that are out there - given that she currently has a position of some influence (more than being random nuffie) i think it is positive to shine a light on her belief system and see if it stands up. Doubt she will get to make unopposed statements (will cop criticisms if I am incorrect)

Like I said I'll watch it and see but that article and previous ABC and SBS programs don't fill me with confidence.

Media watch the other week downplayed the NSN involvement in the let women speak march and suggested it was kist some right wing crazies showing up.

They also suggested that Julie Szego lost her job for being brave enough to write about the topic but it was actually for publicly slagging off her editor and the age when they wouldn't publish something she wrote.

SBS had a couple of anti trans lobbyists in the audience for a women in sports show that they treated as just normal everyday people with an opinion when we're talking about people who are members of an anti trans movement.

This research paper that is the basis of their story

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/26344041211010777

 

[ShanDog]

My issue is this idea that all views must be heard.

I'll never understand this way of thinking.

 

[Gralin]

I'll never understand this way of thinking.

I mean the ABC platformed Blair Cottrell a few years ago in the interest of balance and listening to all views....

 

[ShanDog]

I mean the ABC platformed Blair Cottrell a few years ago in the interest of balance and listening to all views....

Not all things are The Same.

 

[Gralin]

Not all things are The Same.

So you do understand not platforming hate speech unlike the ABC?

 

[Gralin]

And the antitrans movement sure is cosy with nazis and other white supremacists ShanDog

If they're going to both sides the "debate" about people having a right to exist and one side has nazis on it, I'm not really interested in their views

 

[ShanDog]

So you do understand not platforming hate speech unlike the ABC?

Neo-Nazo hate speech? Sure. But this isn't the same. As I said. Nuance is frustrating sometimes, I know. But it's also better than absolutism.

 

[ShanDog]

And the antitrans movement sure is cosy with nazis and other white supremacists ShanDog

If they're going to both sides the "debate" about people having a right to exist and one side has nazis on it, I'm not really interested in their views

Nah, the right-to-exist propaganda doesn't fly with me. Message wholly rejected. Feel free to try again without the hysterical rhetoric.

 

[Gralin]

Nah, the right-to-exist propaganda doesn't fly with me. Message wholly rejected. Feel free to try again without the hysterical rhetoric.

The right to exist doesn't fly with you?

I'm being hysterical when I say the end goal of the antitrans movement is no trans people?

 

[ShanDog]

The right to exist doesn't fly with you?

I'm being hysterical when I say the end goal of the antitrans movement is no trans people?

Yes, because it's bullshit. Same as the insinuations that it's either the gender affirming care model or youth suicide. This issue has more entrenched, tribalistic sloganeering and activist propaganda than any other social issue. The most generous, good-faith assessment that can be mustered is that the extremes of both sides drive it and talk past the 90% of people in the middle trying to figure things out, but I don't care for it regardless.

 

[Crankyhawk]

My issue is this idea that all views must be heard.

Like would they be saying that if the show was on vaccines?

Would they get Robert Kennedy Jnr on with that kind of thinking?

Like I said I'll wait for the show to see how it goes.


Like I said I'll watch it and see but that article and previous ABC and SBS programs don't fill me with confidence.

Media watch the other week downplayed the NSN involvement in the let women speak march and suggested it was kist some right wing crazies showing up.

They also suggested that Julie Szego lost her job for being brave enough to write about the topic but it was actually for publicly slagging off her editor and the age when they wouldn't publish something she wrote.

SBS had a couple of anti trans lobbyists in the audience for a women in sports show that they treated as just normal everyday people with an opinion when we're talking about people who are members of an anti trans movement.

This research paper that is the basis of their story

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/26344041211010777

if the 4 corners article parallels the abc written article, it does mention that Dr Spencer is also suspended facing an investigation
And that there is a divide between those who believe that gender affirming care is the way forward vs others who believe in "watchful waiting" (but also treat it as a problem with the brain ie treat with psychology - which is probably going to be seen as distasteful to those who had that type of experience with regard to sexual identity)

'We did all we could': Noah was desperate for gender care. He died waiting for help

Desperate families have been unable to get appointments for their trans kids at this public hospital as resignations and a broader fight over gender care take a toll.

www.abc.net.au

Though we do tend to approach body dysmorphic disorder (where the brain believes there is a flaw in the body) psychologically rather than fund endless surgery... (again I don't know the answer or where the line is)

Body dysmorphic disorder (BDD)

People with body dysmorphic disorder constantly worry about the way they look.

www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au

 

[Gough]

if the 4 corners article parallels the abc written article, it does mention that Dr Spencer is also suspended facing an investigation
And that there is a divide between those who believe that gender affirming care is the way forward vs others who believe in "watchful waiting" (but also treat it as a problem with the brain ie treat with psychology - which is probably going to be seen as distasteful to those who had that type of experience with regard to sexual identity)

'We did all we could': Noah was desperate for gender care. He died waiting for help

Desperate families have been unable to get appointments for their trans kids at this public hospital as resignations and a broader fight over gender care take a toll.

www.abc.net.au

Though we do tend to approach body dysmorphic disorder (where the brain believes there is a flaw in the body) psychologically rather than fund endless surgery... (again I don't know the answer or where the line is)

Body dysmorphic disorder (BDD)

People with body dysmorphic disorder constantly worry about the way they look.

www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au

Talking about dealing with it a psychological problem always brings to mind conversion therapy to me.

 

[Gralin]

if the 4 corners article parallels the abc written article, it does mention that Dr Spencer is also suspended facing an investigation
And that there is a divide between those who believe that gender affirming care is the way forward vs others who believe in "watchful waiting" (but also treat it as a problem with the brain ie treat with psychology - which is probably going to be seen as distasteful to those who had that type of experience with regard to sexual identity)

'We did all we could': Noah was desperate for gender care. He died waiting for help

Desperate families have been unable to get appointments for their trans kids at this public hospital as resignations and a broader fight over gender care take a toll.

www.abc.net.au

Though we do tend to approach body dysmorphic disorder (where the brain believes there is a flaw in the body) psychologically rather than fund endless surgery... (again I don't know the answer or where the line is)

Body dysmorphic disorder (BDD)

People with body dysmorphic disorder constantly worry about the way they look.

www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au

Yeah I see the people pushing gender dysphoria as being a mental illness as the same line used with gay people regarding conversion therapy.

I've also seen Spencer and others blame autism.

There's been some really nasty stuff online in hardcore terf circles in relation to autism recently

 

[Chief]

My issue is this idea that all views must be heard.

This is the perennial problem with reactionary dorks digging up quotes from tiny fringe groups or one lecturer somewhere and either saying "this is important it MUST be on the news or the ABC is proving their leftist bias!" or "This is what the left want us all to do now!"

I've said it for years, but it is so profitable for "personalities" to whip people into a frenzy over the lump of dog shit they hold on their cupped hands that it doesn't ever stop.

The ABC falls for it far too often when they should just leave out the embarrassing idiots from their reports.

So many users on the forum have been blocked or excluded or banned because this is ALL they do. They come in with this heap of dog poo and demand that everyone smells it. If we refuse they try to smear it around anyway. Then they lose access and scream "BIASED LEFTISTS! CANT HANDLE OPPOSING VIEW!"

I blame their parents.



Anyway that's the latest repeat of my standard rant.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Yeah I see the people pushing gender dysphoria as being a mental illness as the same line used with gay people regarding conversion therapy.

I've also seen Spencer and others blame autism.

There's been some really nasty stuff online in hardcore terf circles in relation to autism recently

Is it blaming autism or is it highlighting a higher incidence of people identifying as trans who are also neurodiverse (as in I'd need to see how they have made their claims, as I have heard from various trans and neurodiverse activists that this association is a fact)

 

[Crankyhawk]

This is the perennial problem with reactionary dorks digging up quotes from tiny fringe groups or one lecturer somewhere and either saying "this is important it MUST be on the news or the ABC is proving their leftist bias!" or "This is what the left want us all to do now!"

I've said it for years, but it is so profitable for "personalities" to whip people into a frenzy over the lump of dog s**t they hold on their cupped hands that it doesn't ever stop.

The ABC falls for it far too often when they should just leave out the embarrassing idiots from their reports.

So many users on the forum have been blocked or excluded or banned because this is ALL they do. They come in with this heap of dog poo and demand that everyone smells it. If we refuse they try to smear it around anyway. Then they lose access and scream "BIASED LEFTISTS! CANT HANDLE OPPOSING VIEW!"

I blame their parents.



Anyway that's the latest repeat of my standard rant.

I’m happy for views to be out there as long as they aren’t shielded from comment and criticism. Bring them into the light and the lies will burn
(At least that is my hope yeah I know hope isn’t a strategy)

 

[Gralin]

Is it blaming autism or is it highlighting a higher incidence of people identifying as trans who are also neurodiverse (as in I'd need to see how they have made their claims, as I have heard from various trans and neurodiverse activists that this association is a fact)

It's things like

They're autistic they can't give informed consent to medical treatment so they shouldn't get gender affirming care or they're autistic they don't know what they are talking about / they've been conned etc.

Basically using their autism to discredit their trans identity, the same as they try and do with any other circumstance or mental health issues they can find

 

[Gralin]

I’m happy for views to be out there as long as they aren’t shielded from comment and criticism. Bring them into the light and the lies will burn
(At least that is my hope yeah I know hope isn’t a strategy)

We've got so many examples of this not working now that it's depressing.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Is it blaming autism or is it highlighting a higher incidence of people identifying as trans who are also neurodiverse (as in I'd need to see how they have made their claims, as I have heard from various trans and neurodiverse activists that this association is a fact)

On that topic, I have a sample of precisely one to offer, but FWIW…

An acquaintance’s daughter was hitting puberty and was questioning her gender, even to the point of asking about getting a mastectomy.

She was recently diagnosed as autistic and is now completely happy identifying as female, and all her talk of transing has fallen by the wayside. Next time I see her mum I’ll see if I can find out a bit more.

 

[Crankyhawk]

It's things like

They're autistic they can't give informed consent to medical treatment so they shouldn't get gender affirming care or they're autistic they don't know what they are talking about / they've been conned etc.

Basically using their autism to discredit their trans identity, the same as they try and do with any other circumstance or mental health issues they can find

Oh that is definitely not ok

 

[Gralin]

So the four corners piece wasn't terrible.
There was some good stuff in there and they did cover issues with the Westmead research and how the data didn't match the conclusions made.

But holy hell do they love putting up shit trucks without background.

Binary Australia which they did I mention was an anti trans group, or at least critical of trans care...

That group was previously anti SSM and before that anti Muslim.


Kirralie has got a pretty big history in reactionary politics in Australia.

Her ambassador that was on the show Dr Diane Kenny was a musical therapist dealing with anxiety in kids who struggled to perform until she got into this little grift of "not conversion therapy"

 

[ShanDog]

Talking about dealing with it a psychological problem always brings to mind conversion therapy to me.

Are you saying it isn't a psychological issue?

 

[Chief]

 

[Gough]

Are you saying it isn't a psychological issue?

I think it just is, a quirk of human nature if you will. I know gender and sexuality can get confused here but I think the same way some people are gay, some people are bi, and lots of people are straight, I think some people are trans and at the moment there are those trying to make life hell for them.