Travis Cloke

[Ned_Flanders]

Yeah I agree taking on Cloke would/should hurt them financially, but my point is, we wouldnt be as hurt as many think if we took him. Carlton have not lost anyone of note since getting Judd and I would be confident that atleast $800ish of his wage was under the cap.

So I see no reason, if the leadership group agreed to it, that we couldnt pay Cloke his $800K. I have heard that most big recruits like this are usually discussed with the leaders of the club to ensure everyone is happy and on the same page.

who did Carlton have on their list when they took Judd? Hardly anyone of real value, because all their real talent was with the kids. Combine this and the Visy deal (which the AFL now has realized was a bad move - not just with Carlton but all clubs who did similar), and it goes a long way to explaining the space they had for Judd.

Very different situation now for both clubs.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I would imagine if we did sign Cloke he would be on a fairly front loaded contract.
Benny has been going on about FTF would allow us to be able to pre pay contracts for the future, barring gross mismanagement we should be able to handle his salary no problem.

We can only front load so much.

March is already on record as saying that our priority is maintaining our existing talent on the list, and this means that we will not have the capacity to pay Cloke what he wants if the media reports on his wage demands are correct.

This marries with some of the rumours which state we have made an offer, but its below that of the Blues.

 

[Bird Man]

We can only front load so much.

March is already on record as saying that our priority is maintaining our existing talent on the list, and this means that we will not have the capacity to pay Cloke what he wants if the media reports on his wage demands are correct.

This marries with some of the rumours which state we have made an offer, but its below that of the Blues.

March isn't the list manager nor is he in charge of what players leave and come toour club and thank God for that !!

If dimma and Cameron wanted cloke at this club there is nothing march can do about it

 

[Ned_Flanders]

March isn't the list manager nor is he in charge of what players leave and come toour club and thank God for that !!

If dimma and Cameron wanted cloke at tis club there is nothing march can do about it

100% wrong. Board has final approval on all major expenses the club want to undertake, and a contract of Cloke's size would need board approval. March confirmed this on radio, but said the board would only look at it from a financial perspective (i.e. the clubs ability to pay the amount rather than is it the right player).

 

[SA TIGER]

who did Carlton have on their list when they took Judd? Hardly anyone of real value, because all their real talent was with the kids. Combine this and the Visy deal (which the AFL now has realized was a bad move - not just with Carlton but all clubs who did similar), and it goes a long way to explaining the space they had for Judd.

Very different situation now for both clubs.

Fevola?

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Agree. It is also worth noting that signing Judd to a massive contract has not hindered their ability to sign and satisfy their young guns.

They lost a KPF ( josh Kennedy ) and picks 3 and 20 . They took a huge gamble on Judd being able to deliver them a premiership whilst in his prime at the expense of long term sustained success. It has bitten them severly on the arse.
They can wollow on the bottom of the ladder all they like , they had the short sightness .
Getting Judd is similar to us now getting Cloke, in that both players will be on the decline significantly , as the rest of the squad is on the rise and likely to be in a position of challenging for a flag .
The tankers I am pretty sure would prefer to now have both Josh Kennedy and Chris Mastin on the list, rather than Judd and that is only going to amplify in the coming years .

 

[TigerTime88]

They loss a KPF ( josh Kennedy ) and picks 3 and 20 . They took a huge gamble on Judd being able to deliver them a premiership whilst in his prime at the expense of long term sustained success. It has bitten them severly on the arse and. I they can wollow on the bottom of the ladder all the like . Getting Judd is similar to us now getting Cloke, in that both players will be on the decline significantly , as the rest of the squad is on the rise and likely to be in a position of challenging for a flag .
Inge tankers I an pretty sure would prefer to now have both Josh Kennedy and Chris Mastin on the list than Judd and that is only going to amplify in the coming years .

The major difference is we only have to pay $$ for Cloke. It hurt Carlton because they gave up Josh Kennedy, pick 3 and 20.

If the club can organise the money appropriatley then he would be worth it and extremely handy. Would sure up our whole spine having a big marking CHF leading up the ground when we can't quite get it out of HB line.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Fevola?

and who else?? This was there list, not a lot of high earners on it back then:

Cain Ackland
Joe Anderson
Dennis Armfield
Mark Austin
Jordan Bannister
Adam Bentick
Eddie Betts
Paul Bower
Steven Browne
Andrew Carrazzo
Cameron Cloke
Jake Edwards
David Ellard
Brendan Fevola
Brad Fisher
Bryce Gibbs
Shaun Grigg
Richard Hadley
Shaun Hampson
Adam Hartlett
Ryan Houlihan
Ryan Jackson
Michael Jamison
Chris Judd
Matthew Kreuzer
Marc Murphy
Setanta Ó hAilpín
Darren Pfeiffer
Jordan Russell
Jason Saddington
Heath Scotland
Kade Simpson
Nick Stevens
Bret Thornton
Jarrad Waite
Andrew Walker
Simon Wiggins

This year also saw them farewell to Kouta, Lappin, and Whitnall, all who would have been on decent coin.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

The major difference is we only have to pay $$ for Cloke. It hurt Carlton because they gave up Josh Kennedy, pick 3 and 20.

If the club can organise the money appropriatley then he would be worth it and extremely handy. Would sure up our whole spine having a big marking CHF leading up the ground when we can't quite get it out of HB line.

Yep no doubt he would provide 2 key things , a get out option from our backline and a decoy for Jack . Personally I'd prefer to develop our own and spend the extra cash on upgrading our depth across the whole club .

 

[SA TIGER]

and who else?? This was there list, not a lot of high earners on it back then:

Cain Ackland
Joe Anderson
Dennis Armfield
Mark Austin
Jordan Bannister
Adam Bentick
Eddie Betts
Paul Bower
Steven Browne
Andrew Carrazzo
Cameron Cloke
Jake Edwards
David Ellard
Brendan Fevola
Brad Fisher
Bryce Gibbs
Shaun Grigg
Richard Hadley
Shaun Hampson
Adam Hartlett
Ryan Houlihan
Ryan Jackson
Michael Jamison
Chris Judd
Matthew Kreuzer
Marc Murphy
Setanta Ó hAilpín
Darren Pfeiffer
Jordan Russell
Jason Saddington
Heath Scotland
Kade Simpson
Nick Stevens
Bret Thornton
Jarrad Waite
Andrew Walker
Simon Wiggins

This year also saw them farewell to Kouta, Lappin, and Whitnall, all who would have been on decent coin.

Spot on, but you have possibly overlooked that Judd and Fevola's salaries combined would have been a bucket load more than our top 3-4 highest salary earners this season(eg Cotchin, Deledio, Reiwoldt and Martin) at a guess!

 

[spark12]

Carltscum will get Cloke and Malthouse.

 

[theflea]

March isn't the list manager nor is he in charge of what players leave and come toour club and thank God for that !!

If dimma and Cameron wanted cloke at this club there is nothing march can do about it

no march and the board have the final say on money matters especially the price cloke wants.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Spot on, but you have possibly overlooked that Judd and Fevola's salaries combined would have been a bucket load more than our top 3-4 highest salary earners this season(eg Cotchin, Deledio, Reiwoldt and Martin) at a guess!

That actually underlines my point. Back then the Blues had a very poor list, and were able to get away paying two players a tonne of money because their cap was under so little pressure. Our current list has a raft of young performing players who are all expecting pay rises this year and next, and our famously low wages bill is going to start rising very quickly.

I just think we need to get over this notion we will get Cloke for no impact upon our list - every club (outside a cellar dweller) who snags a major player has nearly always paid for it in some way - the question is whether the price is worth it.

 

[Groupie_]

Carltscum will get Cloke and Malthouse.

This is true.

 

[Morro]

who did Carlton have on their list when they took Judd? Hardly anyone of real value, because all their real talent was with the kids. Combine this and the Visy deal (which the AFL now has realized was a bad move - not just with Carlton but all clubs who did similar), and it goes a long way to explaining the space they had for Judd.

Very different situation now for both clubs.

Not that different to us IMO.

Our main earners are kids right now. Which means we could load up in years 1 and 2 of Clokes contract, maybe even year 3, with 4 & 5 significantly less.

Yes Carlton lost big time because they traded big, we have a distinct advantage in that we dont have to. We retain every thing and only gain in this deal. It is a no brainer if handled correctly. Pay him a mill in years 1& 2 and $600K in years 3-5. So simple its laughable.

Carlton are not in trouble now nor were then (financially). They have retained all their young guns from when Judd signed, despite speculation many would walk for more money when the time arose. Fev, Waite, Walker, Scotland, Stevens, Simpson, Murphy to name a few would have been on good money and many have sinced resigned in Judds time, all on bigger contracts. I know the Visy deal helped, but I believe the money they declared under their cap would be similar to what we would offer Cloke.

Sorry if this post is hard to read, bloody work keeps interrupting

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Not that different to us IMO.

Our main earners are kids right now. Which means we could load up in years 1 and 2 of Clokes contract, maybe even year 3, with 4 & 5 significantly less.

Yes Carlton lost big time because they traded big, we have a distinct advantage in that we dont have to. We retain every thing and only gain in this deal. It is a no brainer if handled correctly. Pay him a mill in years 1& 2 and $600K in years 3-5. So simple its laughable.

Carlton are not in trouble now nor were then (financially). They have retained all their young guns from when Judd signed, despite speculation many would walk for more money when the time arose. Fev, Waite, Walker, Scotland, Stevens, Simpson, Murphy to name a few would have been on good money and many have sinced resigned in Judds time, all on bigger contracts. I know the Visy deal helped, but I believe the money they declared under their cap would be similar to what we would offer Cloke.

Sorry if this post is hard to read, bloody work keeps interrupting

Again, you can only load up so much, remember we have already been doing that with a number of existing contracts.

Carlton have retained their kids, but they have also moved Fev on - saving them a few dollars in the process.

We will save some money losing the McGuane contract and eventually the Angus contract, but reality is with their performances Martin, Cotchin, Reiwoldt, Edwards, Batchelor, Grimes, Conca, Ellis, and Rance will all be looking for decent pay rises in the next couple of years - and add Griffiths, Astbury, Vickery, and Post to this if they improve as hoped. Thats a lot of people looking for an extra $50k to $150k each. We need to budget for room to retain these.

 

[tigerdan]

Carltscum will get Cloke and Malthouse.

I have a feeling that this will happen too. And good luck to them because it will take at least 2 years to get the team playing the Malthouse style of play (boring, low scoring, chip around the boundary line) before they get any good at it. By that stage Judd will be gone and who knows what Travis will be like.

Actually Carlton are on a hiding to nothing. Either they persist with Ratten to save face, and probably go nowhere, or they go for the big spend and risk a catastrophic blunder again. Smiles all round!

 

[TheTigerArmy]

The major difference is we only have to pay $$ for Cloke. It hurt Carlton because they gave up Josh Kennedy, pick 3 and 20.

If the club can organise the money appropriatley then he would be worth it and extremely handy. Would sure up our whole spine having a big marking CHF leading up the ground when we can't quite get it out of HB line.

good post

 

[Morro]

Again, you can only load up so much, remember we have already been doing that with a number of existing contracts.

Carlton have retained their kids, but they have also moved Fev on - saving them a few dollars in the process.

We will save some money losing the McGuane contract and eventually the Angus contract, but reality is with their performances Martin, Cotchin, Reiwoldt, Edwards, Batchelor, Grimes, Conca, Ellis, and Rance will all be looking for decent pay rises in the next couple of years - and add Griffiths, Astbury, Vickery, and Post to this if they improve as hoped. Thats a lot of people looking for an extra $50k to $150k each. We need to budget for room to retain these.

With the players we drop off the list, and still sitting at minimum cap expenditure I believe my scenario would work, obviously my scenario is full of speculation, but so are most I guess. Lids at $500-550K pa is our highest paid player and has been on our list for alot longer than the others you mention. They have a way to go before demanding stupid money IMO. I believe, with the lower rungs of our list either very young or very average, the time is now to make a big play for a big fish. In 3 years or so the window wil be past.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

With the players we drop off the list, and still sitting at minimum cap expenditure I believe my scenario would work, obviously my scenario is full of speculation, but so are most I guess. Lids at $500-550K pa is our highest paid player and has been on our list for alot longer than the others you mention. They have a way to go before demanding stupid money IMO. I believe, with the lower rungs of our list either very young or very average, the time is now to make a big play for a big fish. In 3 years or so the window wil be past.

Firstly look at who we are losing. Connors, MacDonald, Moore, Miller, and probably Webberley, Derickx, Maric, and possibly some of White, Graham, Browne, and McGuane. Most would be earning SFA, with only Moore, Connors, Graham, and McGuane likely to be on a half decent wage. No big earners though, and not a lot of savings.

For the player increases, I had 10 who would rightly want an increase (forgot Nahas), and 5 as possibles. Even if the increases are conservative at around $50-100k, it still pushes you up $500k to $1.5m. And these increases are small. Most of these guys will be looking towards mid $200k to mid $300k, which is well above the current rate you would expect most to be on. Add to this the massive kick Cotchin will get, our gap starts disappearing quickly.

Again, I'm not saying its stupid to chase a Cloke type player, but we have to accept bringing him in will squeeze 1-2 players out in the next year or two.

 

[tugga]

Carltscum will get Cloke and Malthouse.

yep, done deal.

 

[Morro]

Firstly look at who we are losing. Connors, MacDonald, Moore, Miller, and probably Webberley, Derickx, Maric, and possibly some of White, Graham, Browne, and McGuane. Most would be earning SFA, with only Moore, Connors, Graham, and McGuane likely to be on a half decent wage. No big earners though, and not a lot of savings.

For the player increases, I had 10 who would rightly want an increase (forgot Nahas), and 5 as possibles. Even if the increases are conservative at around $50-100k, it still pushes you up $500k to $1.5m. And these increases are small. Most of these guys will be looking towards mid $200k to mid $300k, which is well above the current rate you would expect most to be on. Add to this the massive kick Cotchin will get, our gap starts disappearing quickly.

Again, I'm not saying its stupid to chase a Cloke type player, but we have to accept bringing him in will squeeze 1-2 players out in the next year or two.

But arent we being led to believe that Moore and McGuane were on approx. $400K each? and of all the names mentioned, most of their replacements would be on less.

It seems we actually agree, its just a matter of our cap space and future planning. I dont agree that we would have to accept losing anyone if done properly.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Apparently Visy has not been allowed by the AFL to have another ambassador, so Carlton instead have sought out another company with similar business ethics.

Get ready for Securency to be a new sponsor, with Twav appointed as their $5 Note Ambassador.

 

[SA TIGER]

With the players we drop off the list, and still sitting at minimum cap expenditure I believe my scenario would work, obviously my scenario is full of speculation, but so are most I guess. Lids at $500-550K pa is our highest paid player and has been on our list for alot longer than the others you mention. They have a way to go before demanding stupid money IMO. I believe, with the lower rungs of our list either very young or very average, the time is now to make a big play for a big fish. In 3 years or so the window wil be past.

Well executed Morro, the time is now, as we still possess the third youngest squad in the comp.
It has been years since we made big play for a big fish and I believe we are in a great financial position to do this.
Landing a big fish such as Cloke will have a massively unequivocal effect on the club (on and off the field).
You only need to look at the Cousins effect in his brief tenure at Punt Road, even when his best playing days were well behind him.
The positives would far outweigh the negatives if we signed a KPF such as Cloke!

 

[Ned_Flanders]

But arent we being led to believe that Moore and McGuane were on approx. $400K each? and of all the names mentioned, most of their replacements would be on less.

It seems we actually agree, its just a matter of our cap space and future planning. I dont agree that we would have to accept losing anyone if done properly.

Those were heavily front loaded I've been told, with McGuane in particular on SFA this year.

And we disagree. If think people have gotten so used to us being at the bottom rung of the cap, they are assuming its situation normal for us. This was the norm because we had the wonderful combination of shit older players and a whole lotta young players. As our players move out of the 18-20 mark, start getting second contracts, we will see much of this buffer eroded, and more so by the 21-23 year olds who start looking for the career defining pay day contracts in their mid 20's. Even if they agree to stay on $350k, its a big increase on $150k (which some of them will still be on).

As I mentioned earlier, March has said the priority is retention, and anything left over will be used to attract free agents. He also said that the reported amounts Cloke wants would make him coming to us unlikely. To me thats him saying he either comes at a reduced wage or we need to lose a player to fit him in (which he doesn't want to do).