Opinion Travis Varcoe

[Pivo]

You might be interested in knowing that the Player Ratings use Champion Data's Pressure Act stats


"Every time a player is involved in a passage of play he has the chance to accrue points. But rather than his score being a simple tally of his possessions, marks, tackles, hit-outs, free-kicks and scores, his performance is measured using a system called Equity Ratings. The system determines where and how a player influences a contest and whether the player's effort then results in a positive result for his team. Equity Ratings includes what coaches love to describe as "pressure acts". As a result, players are rewarded for interrupting opposition passages of play as well as setting up scores for their own team."

I did also chuckle a little bit at the "chase from behind" description.

So when a play lunges at the kicker to try and put him off and the kicker sprays the ball the lunger gets a point.

But I assume it'll get wiped away if the umpire brings the ball back after paying a free for in-the-back.

Overall it is roughly what I was thinking but it is good to get some confirmation.

 

[Teriyakicat]

Supercoach gold? Would that have them?

Just checked- I'm not registered so can't see anything but perhaps you could have a look?

 

[Teriyakicat]

I did also chuckle a little bit at the "chase from behind" description.

So when a play lunges at the kicker to try and put him off and the kicker sprays the ball the lunger gets a point.

But I assume it'll get wiped away if the umpire brings the ball back after paying a free for in-the-back.

Overall it is roughly what I was thinking but it is good to get some confirmation.

Stop playing Devil's Advocate!!

If the ump pays a free for 'in the back', then the player would lose a point in the player ratings, and get a clanger registered against them. If it happened all the time, it would eat away at the positivity of the PAs. If a player has 25 PAs and gives away one free for ITB, then it's pretty much swept under the carpet because of the overwhelming positive acts.

 

[Olden_Polynice]

Relevant to this thread, Varcoe was reportedly 2nd at the club for pressure acts as of 14 May.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-05-14/kings-of-pressure

The article actually says Varcoe & Guthrie are equal best

 

[catempire]

The article actually says Varcoe & Guthrie are equal best

Ah, thanks. Obviously read it too quickly.

 

[Teriyakicat]

You could probably find the data here-
http://www.championdata.com/index.php/champion-data/afl-prospectus

Champion Data has an iPad app- I suppose it would be current stats each week but I'd prefer to see if anyone here has the app first, to see if the Pressure Act stats are listed because I don't want to fork out $12 or whatever to see the stats, only to find out the only stats listed are disposals, goals, hitouts, etc.

 

[Baudolino]

What about Horlin-Smith as well? After a whopping 18 games he wins the contested footy as well as anyone. Uses it reasonably well too. But apparently after 7 seasons Varcoe still needs more time. Yeah right.

Not every player needs to win high amounts of contested ball. Horlin-Smith can't be used as a comparison; he's an archetypal inside mid whose ability to accumulate impressive contested ball numbers is his main point of difference from many of the other young mids we have coming through. Varcoe's strengths and weaknesses are almost the exact opposite of Horlin-Smith.

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on Lewis Jetta, incidentally, as I think he's a player with some very interesting parallels to Varcoe.

 

[Pivo]

Stop playing Devil's Advocate!!

If the ump pays a free for 'in the back', then the player would lose a point in the player ratings, and get a clanger registered against them. If it happened all the time, it would eat away at the positivity of the PAs. If a player has 25 PAs and gives away one free for ITB, then it's pretty much swept under the carpet because of the overwhelming positive acts.

Playing Devil's Advocate helps tease out the detail.

If Varcoe's role is mainly to provide pressure (and evidence is pointing that way) then it is only fair that people understand what he is expected to do.

People will then also be able to decide if the pressure acts he is being credited with is aligning with what they themselves are seeing.

I think that is acceptable.

 

[Baudolino]

I did also chuckle a little bit at the "chase from behind" description.

So when a play lunges at the kicker to try and put him off and the kicker sprays the ball the lunger gets a point.

But I assume it'll get wiped away if the umpire brings the ball back after paying a free for in-the-back.

Overall it is roughly what I was thinking but it is good to get some confirmation.

Is corralling/chasing/pressuring etc only counted as an official pressure act if it successfully interrupts an opposition passage of play?

 

[Partridge]

Not every player needs to win high amounts of contested ball. Horlin-Smith can't be used as a comparison; he's an archetypal inside mid whose ability to accumulate impressive contested ball numbers is his main point of difference from many of the other young mids we have coming through. Varcoe's strengths and weaknesses are almost the exact opposite of Horlin-Smith.

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on Lewis Jetta, incidentally, as I think he's a player with some very interesting parallels to Varcoe.

In general I agree. They are very different players. The point is though, if Varcoe is excused from getting more touches due to needing more time, or coming off injury (both false), they aren't valid excuses. Because Horlin-Smith is a baby in football terms, doesn't possess anything like the pace of Varcoe, and yet he wins his own footy just fine.

 

[Teriyakicat]

Is corralling/chasing/pressuring etc only counted as an official pressure act if it successfully interrupts an opposition passage of play?

I am pretty sure that is the case, Baudolino- the act doesn't seem to necessarily have to force a turnover because that is up to the player's teammates to be able to capitalise on the rough kick or bandpass but I think it has to create the opportunity for a turnover to actually count for something. Even if it forces an opponent to kick the ball along the ground out of bounds and force a throw-in, it means the opposition doesn't have the ball anymore and it's then a 50/50, so that SHOULD be a PA.

Having said that, I'm only guessing....

 

[Pivo]

Is corralling/chasing/pressuring etc only counted as an official pressure act if it successfully interrupts an opposition passage of play?

A valid question. Logic tells me interruption or clangers or turnovers have to be determining factor.

As I mentioned earlier, I've seen Ablett get corralled but he still managed to get away an effective disposal. I'm thinking in that instance the player doing to corralling won't/can't get rewarded as it didn't result in the ball falling into dispute or getting turned over.

 

[Pivo]

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on Lewis Jetta, incidentally, as I think he's a player with some very interesting parallels to Varcoe.

Who you prefer is going to come down to what you value more in the players or what role you want them to do.

This year, Jetta gets more overall disposals than Varcoe (basically doubling Varcoe's average kicks per game), takes more marks and has more rebound and inside 50s.

However, Varcoe has a better efficiency by hand and foot (helped, I believe, by his constant little gives to guys very close to him), lays around 2-3 more tackles a game and has more clearances and goals. He also has fewer clangers (but I already touched on why I think that is).

They have about the same 1%ers a game, (basically) the same contested possessions and spend roughly the same amount of time on the ground (Jetta a couple of % more).

The one I found interesting is running bounces. Jetta averages 1.1 a game VS Varcoe's 0.2. To me that is an indication that Jetta is prepared to run and carry a lot more than Varcoe (something I want to see more from Varcoe, no more of these dinky short handballs to guys under the pump).

Personally, I would have gone with Yarren as a "like" player.

Yarren averages 3.7 running bounces.

Varcoe, Jetta and Yarren are all pretty similar in my mind. Two of them appear happy to run and carry.

And that is where Varcoe's increased real value to the side lies. Carrying the ball 20-30 metres and kicking it another 35-45.

He isn't doing that anywhere near enough this year (or last year after his injury).

Confidence is the key. Not too sure he'll regain it in the ones playing the way he currently is.

 

[Baudolino]

Who you prefer is going to come down to what you value more in the players or what role you want them to do.

This year, Jetta gets more overall disposals than Varcoe (basically doubling Varcoe's average kicks per game), takes more marks and has more rebound and inside 50s.

However, Varcoe has a better efficiency by hand and foot (helped, I believe, by his constant little gives to guys very close to him), lays around 2-3 more tackles a game and has more clearances and goals. He also has fewer clangers (but I already touched on why I think that is).

They have about the same 1%ers a game, (basically) the same contested possessions and spend roughly the same amount of time on the ground (Jetta a couple of % more).

The one I found interesting is running bounces. Jetta averages 1.1 a game VS Varcoe's 0.2. To me that is an indication that Jetta is prepared to run and carry a lot more than Varcoe (something I want to see more from Varcoe, no more of these dinky short handballs to guys under the pump).

Personally, I would have gone with Yarren as a "like" player.

Yarren averages 3.7 running bounces.

Varcoe, Jetta and Yarren are all pretty similar in my mind. Two of them appear happy to run and carry.

And that is where Varcoe's increased real value to the side lies. Carrying the ball 20-30 metres and kicking it another 35-45.

He isn't doing that anywhere near enough this year (or last year after his injury).

Confidence it the key. Not too sure he'll regain it in the ones playing the way he currently is.

Jetta's in better form, I don't dispute that.

To be honest, my post was mainly alluding to Jetta's contested ball stats in particular, as I disagree with the premise that every player - especially senior players - needs to be able to win their own ball. Obviously, the role Sydney gives Jetta isn't exactly the same as the role Geelong gives Varcoe, but there are certain similarities inasmuch as both of them are ostensibly there to break lines, and provide quality (mainly through ball use, in Varcoe's case, and mainly through run and carry, in Jetta's case) on the outside. Jetta's contested ball-winning numbers are actually lower than Varcoe's in terms of this both this season and over the course of their respective careers.

 

[allrighty]

One way to look at it.
I see that as one of his strengths, the lightning quick reflex handball that can set up something special, eg GF 2009. Problem now is, some players are not quick enough to be appropriately receptive.

Yep, but I'm referring to the blind panic handball which goes to someone in a worse position or to the oppo like a hot potato. Does it too often for my liking.

 

[allrighty]

no, often he is not under much, if any, pressure....he just doesnt want the ball (could be psychological due to injuries or that miss in the prelim, who knows).

Yep

 

[catempire]

Jetta's in better form, I don't dispute that.

To be honest, my post was mainly alluding to Jetta's contested ball stats in particular, as I disagree with the premise that every player - especially senior players - needs to be able to win their own ball. Obviously, the role Sydney gives Jetta isn't exactly the same as the role Geelong gives Varcoe, but there are certain similarities inasmuch as both of them are ostensibly there to break lines, and provide quality (mainly through ball use, in Varcoe's case, and mainly through run and carry, in Jetta's case) on the outside. Jetta's contested ball-winning numbers are actually lower than Varcoe's in terms of this both season and their respective career averages.

Spot on.

The reason players like Jetta, Smith of Hawthorn, Clint Young and countless others are more effective than Varcoe is because they are better on the outside, not because they win more contested possessions (they generally don't). Which is why most of the criticism here of Varcoe to me seems misplaced.

 

[Pivo]

Jetta's in better form, I don't dispute that.

To be honest, my post was mainly alluding to Jetta's contested ball stats in particular, as I disagree with the premise that every player - especially senior players - needs to be able to win their own ball. Obviously, the role Sydney gives Jetta isn't exactly the same as the role Geelong gives Varcoe, but there are certain similarities inasmuch as both of them are ostensibly there to break lines, and provide quality (mainly through ball use, in Varcoe's case, and mainly through run and carry, in Jetta's case) on the outside. Jetta's contested ball-winning numbers are actually lower than Varcoe's in terms of this both this season and their respective career averages.

Sorta what I was saying when I raised the running bounces wasn't it?

 

[Teriyakicat]

Who you prefer is going to come down to what you value more in the players or what role you want them to do.

This year, Jetta gets more overall disposals than Varcoe (basically doubling Varcoe's average kicks per game), takes more marks and has more rebound and inside 50s.

However, Varcoe has a better efficiency by hand and foot (helped, I believe, by his constant little gives to guys very close to him), lays around 2-3 more tackles a game and has more clearances and goals. He also has fewer clangers (but I already touched on why I think that is).

They have about the same 1%ers a game, (basically) the same contested possessions and spend roughly the same amount of time on the ground (Jetta a couple of % more).

The one I found interesting is running bounces. Jetta averages 1.1 a game VS Varcoe's 0.2. To me that is an indication that Jetta is prepared to run and carry a lot more than Varcoe (something I want to see more from Varcoe, no more of these dinky short handballs to guys under the pump).

Personally, I would have gone with Yarren as a "like" player.

Yarren averages 3.7 running bounces.

Varcoe, Jetta and Yarren are all pretty similar in my mind. Two of them appear happy to run and carry.

And that is where Varcoe's increased real value to the side lies. Carrying the ball 20-30 metres and kicking it another 35-45.

He isn't doing that anywhere near enough this year (or last year after his injury).

Confidence it the key. Not too sure he'll regain it in the ones playing the way he currently is.

Just using your own observations on Varcoe- is he in a position to do the run and carry as much this year or is he playing a bit closer to the congestion where he isn't freed up enough to do the run-through?
It might be that he is being watched a bit closer by his opponent (or they have caught up to him in ability and speed) and just can't get away like he used to.
I'd have to go back to watch a bit more closely to see where he has the ball, but thought it could be something you may have noticed.

 

[Pivo]

Just using your own observations on Varcoe- is he in a position to do the run and carry as much this year or is he playing a bit closer to the congestion where he isn't freed up enough to do the run-through?
It might be that he is being watched a bit closer by his opponent (or they have caught up to him in ability and speed) and just can't get away like he used to.
I'd have to go back to watch a bit more closely to see where he has the ball, but thought it could be something you may have noticed.

I think there have been times he has been in position to run and carry but his confidence appears to be so low he almost always looks to hand it off immediately (often to a guy already under the pump).

 

[Partridge]

I think there have been times he has been in position to run and carry but his confidence appears to be so low he almost always looks to hand it off immediately (often to a guy already under the pump).

Either way, and this where the two camps diverge, there has to be something done. Any other player (well most) would have one route to recapturing their form - the VFL. Go back there, play a game or two, get more of the ball, get the confidence back, and then return to the seniors. For some inexplicable reason, this seems to be totally anathema to the Varcoe fanbase. I'd love to know why.

 

[Baudolino]

Either way, and this where the two camps diverge, there has to be something done. Any other player (well most) would have one route to recapturing their form - the VFL. Go back there, play a game or two, get more of the ball, get the confidence back, and then return to the seniors. For some inexplicable reason, this seems to be totally anathema to the Varcoe fanbase. I'd love to know why.

There have been many posts made in this thread, and others, explaining why some people feel Varcoe should not be dropped. You may disagree with the reasons given, but the explanations are there if you want them.

 

[meto]

These perceived pressures acts are the biggest load of tripe I've ever heard, made to justify a player who won't go in and get the thing under any pressure himself.
Yet he's perceived of being omnipresent providing the reason for opposition mistakes at all points of the ground? Fantasy!

I'm calling 'BULLDUST' on this nonsense!

 

[allrighty]

There have been many posts made in this thread, and others, explaining why some people feel Varcoe should not be dropped. You may disagree with the reasons given, but the explanations are there if you want them.

It's a bit like the SJ genius or dickhead discussions. We don't get too far but they are always informative. That is until someone calls me a tosser.

Plus most of us are too lazy or busy doing other crap (like working) to be reading through every post. Hence people drop in and out of conversations and pick up the various threads here and there.

 

[Zouz Kitty]

Has anyone noticed, + this isn't specific to Varcoe, how some of our players seem to just stand still + watch the play? I noticed it against Port. While the ball was in play, some of our players appeared to be observers + Port grabbed the ball, ran on + goaled.
Pressure acts stats are über + all the haters better get with it! Since fantasy footy, it's all about the stats! Nothing else matters apparently!