Player Watch Trent Cotchin - Elite

Marcel Proust

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2 tackles:
17 Townsend on Crouch, or is it Couch?
19 Trent on Mummy, who nearly everyone in the lead up suggested would go out with a bang. Very prescient of them.

Those tackles are worth goals, raise spirits, win contests, win games. Comes up on the stat sheet as a 1, impact far greater.

Watch the game.

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the dylan shield hit was worth about 5 goals in terms of context and momentum imo
 

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BJK#5

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but your overlooking the fact half his afl life was in a very very bad team but he kicked ass, individually. especially, prior to the freo leg injury thing

He is capable or being a offensive mid and getting a lot of the ball but more valauble in a Voss/Hodge type role



lol well much of the footy world disagrees with your mitchell assessment. Very good at finding it. questionable impact.

poor mans Lachie Neale?
Well see you say that but somehow Mitchell has his impact show up on the scoreboard. Richmond are a higher scoring team than Hawthorn and yet Mitchell still averages more goals per game and more score involvements than Cotchin.

Well much of the footy world would disagree that Neale is better than Mitchell as Neale has never won a Brownlow, or an MVP also hasn't finished as highly as Mitchell in the coaches votes either.
 

Marcel Proust

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Well see you say that but somehow Mitchell has his impact show up on the scoreboard. Richmond are a higher scoring team than Hawthorn and yet Mitchell still averages more goals per game and more score involvements than Cotchin.

Well much of the footy world would disagree that Neale is better than Mitchell as Neale has never won a Brownlow, or an MVP also hasn't finished as highly as Mitchell in the coaches votes either.
Its not like Im making the Mitchell impact thing up. Im guessing there are 100s of paging on here talking about that narrative. Sady its gone quiet due to the injury.

obviously mitchell is a gun but i think your in murky waters arguing he is better or more important than chimp. next season should be good, looks pretty open. Good luck to the hawkers
 

BJK#5

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Its not like Im making the Mitchell impact thing up. Im guessing there are 100s of paging on here talking about that narrative.

obviously mitchell is a gun but i think your in murky waters arguing he is better or more important than chimp. next season should be good, looks pretty open.
Well just because a narrative is around doesn't make it accurate.

Again i am just waiting to have a Tiger fan show me what Cotchin does significantly better as a midfielder because saying 'more impact' means nothing when i can show that what Mitchell does has a bigger impact on the scoreboard.

We also went from finishing 4th in the home and away season with Mitchell in 2018 to missing the 8 without him in 2019. I would say that goes to show how important Mitchell is.
 

Marcel Proust

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Well just because a narrative is around doesn't make it accurate.

Again i am just waiting to have a Tiger fan show me what Cotchin does significantly better as a midfielder because saying 'more impact' means nothing when i can show that what Mitchell does has a bigger impact on the scoreboard.

We also went from finishing 4th in the home and away season with Mitchell in 2018 to missing the 8 without him in 2019. I would say that goes to show how important Mitchell is.
presence, momentum, leadership, desire etc. are not quantifiable. Sheer will to not let the ball get goalside in a key moment in a pack for example are hard for champion data to show.

you can bang on about a fantasy football perspective as much as you like the bloke is super special.

There are examples of this from other sports too where the player is more important than most stat category's.

I dont want to get too artsyfartsy on you but in the case of Cotchin, its true. Very special character.

a journalist killed his favorite pet and Cotchin smiled and made him a cup of tea dont him not to feel too bad. Imagine the kind of things he says to the boys in a closed room?

elite player. very elite leader. (imo) then again i could be wrong and hes a b grader
 

Ghost Patrol

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Well just because a narrative is around doesn't make it accurate.

Again i am just waiting to have a Tiger fan show me what Cotchin does significantly better as a midfielder because saying 'more impact' means nothing when i can show that what Mitchell does has a bigger impact on the scoreboard.

We also went from finishing 4th in the home and away season with Mitchell in 2018 to missing the 8 without him in 2019. I would say that goes to show how important Mitchell is.
Cotchin does X factor and 1%'s better.
 

BJK#5

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presence, momentum, leadership, desire etc. are not quantifiable. Sheer will to not let the ball get goalside in a key moment in a pack for example are hard for champion data to show.

you can bang on about a fantasy football perspective as much as you like the bloke is super special.

There are examples of this from other sports too where the player is more important than most stat category's.

I dont want to get too artsyfartsy on you but in the case of Cotchin, its true. Very special character.

a journalist killed his favorite pet and Cotchin smiled and made him a cup of tea dont him not to feel too bad. Imagine the kind of things he says to the boys in a closed room?

elite player. very elite leader. (imo) then again i could be wrong and hes a b grader
It isn't fantasy football stuff... Jeez i am sorry but no player in the history of the game has been considered an elite player purely off desire and presence you are once again going back to leadership. I agree he is one of the best leaders in the game and i agree that makes him very important to Richmond. I agree that what he does for Richmond is going to be remembered for years. These are all things that he is great at but it is not the point.

Tom Mitchell has him covered currently as a better midfielder and i can not understand how that is debatable at this point or even a knock on Trent.
 

Ghost Patrol

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It isn't fantasy football stuff... Jeez i am sorry but no player in the history of the game has been considered an elite player purely off desire and presence you are once again going back to leadership. I agree he is one of the best leaders in the game and i agree that makes him very important to Richmond. I agree that what he does for Richmond is going to be remembered for years. These are all things that he is great at but it is not the point.

Tom Mitchell has him covered currently as a better midfielder and i can not understand how that is debatable at this point or even a knock on Trent.
It's all covered in the definition

1573608603300.png
 

Partridge

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I can only imagine you haven’t seen much of Cotchin over the last 3 years. Bizarre comment to make. Hardness is not about belting blokes (Hawks fans lay off...I’m Hodges biggest fan). Cotchin plays for the Tiges to win.
I reckon there may have been something to that comment prior to 2017, and especially in finals, where there was a legitimate question mark.

Not now though. it's the aspect of his game he's changed the most.
 

Grrr

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Ah yes because clearly

X factor and 1%'s > Disposals, clearances, score involvements, goals, tackles, contested possessions.
Dylan Grimes is an elite defender, but as far as possessions etc goes, he's just average.
Anyhow, 'Disposals, clearances, score involvements, goals, tackles, contested possessions' are part of what makes Mitchell a top 10 mid in the game, but that has not a lot to do with the value of Trent Cotchin. Influence on games is just if not more important than possessions, which is why we regard Cotchin so highly, because we watch him every week and have done so for years. Until Mitchell takes games by the scruff of the neck like Martin, Fyfe and Dangerfield do, then he will be regarded in the group of A+ grade mids, with Cotchin.
 

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BJK#5

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I was going to mention the Geelong, GWS, Adelaide finals series but BJK#5 doesnt buy 'impact'
Oh give it a rest i do and i have been largely complimentary about most of Cotchin's game... He is a good midfielder and an elite leader. My point has been consistent throughout this thread. Judging him as a midfielder he does not stack up against the best in the game currently as elite.
 

BJK#5

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Dylan Grimes is an elite defender, but as far as possessions etc goes, he's just average.
Anyhow, 'Disposals, clearances, score involvements, goals, tackles, contested possessions' are part of what makes Mitchell a top 10 mid in the game, but that has not a lot to do with the value of Trent Cotchin. Influence on games is just if not more important than possessions, which is why we regard Cotchin so highly, because we watch him every week and have done so for years. Until Mitchell takes games by the scruff of the neck like Martin, Fyfe and Dangerfield do, then he will be regarded in the group of A+ grade mids, with Cotchin.
Well defenders have different KPI's to midfielders. I wouldn't judge a defender (depending on role) on his impact with the ball as much as i would a midfielder or a forward.
 

Grrr

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Oh give it a rest i do and i have been largely complimentary about most of Cotchin's game... He is a good midfielder and an elite leader. My point has been consistent throughout this thread. Judging him as a midfielder he does not stack up against the best in the game currently as elite.
Round and round in circles.
 

Grrr

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Well defenders have different KPI's to midfielders. I wouldn't judge a defender (depending on role) on his impact with the ball as much as i would a midfielder or a forward.
Impact on games is the same. KPI's tell some of the story. Hodge and Selwood have been so good because they do more of the former than the later, they influence games just when the team needs it.
 

Marcel Proust

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Well defenders have different KPI's to midfielders. I wouldn't judge a defender (depending on role) on his impact with the ball as much as i would a midfielder or a forward.
but... cotchin is a 'defensive mid', sort of like voss or hayes - like how hodge was a sweeper or quarterback ... its different to Grimes being a lock down defender but its the same ballpark.

you have to take into account cotchin plays for richmond, not in a vaccum and he has pretty much made it good. Would Tom Mitchell allow dusty go get off the chain as well as Trent does in martin unique attacking mid / forward position? i doubt it.

they told him to have jack dyers number and he said stick it up ya im creating my own culture, its a non selfish way

Oh give it a rest i do and i have been largely complimentary about most of Cotchin's game... He is a good midfielder and an elite leader. My point has been consistent throughout this thread. Judging him as a midfielder he does not stack up against the best in the game currently as elite.
you talk as if football ability and leadership are widely removed, they are not; dangerfield is absolutely elite and brilliant but one of the slight knocks on him is his 'leadership' at big times.

With the best footballers; Fyfe, Danger, Bont, Cripps the guidance aspect is up there cause there isnt much to split the players. it doesn't so matter with Dusty he can hang with Serena williams and the like cause he has Trent in his corner. Selwood is slightly limited maybe compared to the best players but is still right up there historically due to his will and desire
 

THE_GUN

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Sigh... No midfielder has ever been described as an elite mid purely for what they do off the ball. It does not happen he is a brilliant player in the Richmond system but that does not make him elite.
But you see thats where you need to look deeper , He is playing this role due to our teams needs and structure
If we didnt have this he would be playing like he did in 2012 era and he was considered in the best 10 players in the game
 

Coach_Required

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All this discussion on Trent being elite. He was once as a player, I don't think he is anymore, but he is certainly an elite captain, which is what the Tiges would prefer, and look at the results since he became the stand out skipper in the comp.

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Absolutely, give me Trent Cotchin 2017-2019 any time. Absolute professional, a leader and a doer. If he ended his career tomorrow he will go down as a Tiger legend & 2 x premiership captain.
 

RichLeMonde

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I think it's actually hard to rate Cotchin currently as a player - in comparison to other elite mids - because of his role. Around the time of his Brownlow, he was in the midfield alongside of some big-bodied aggressive blokes in the form of Shane Tuck (what a hero) and Dan Jackson. Cotch didn't need to smash in to quite the same extent. With those guys around him, his form in his Brownlow year was unbelievable, despite Richmond being pretty shit. Fast forward to the period where he was still a very good player but went missing in a few finals, as Richmond were improving. He was expected to smash harder into contests and win the footy than anyone else at Richmond, weighing 84 kg dripping wet (5kg of which come from his hair), with no other big bodies to help. That is a bit unusual in AFL footy, and it makes it hard to compare Cotch in this period to other elite mids. It is not a surprise that in the cauldron of finals footy, he couldn't do this alone. Patrick Cripps or Danger probably could have done better in that context, but they are much bigger men. Then fast forward to 17-19. Cotchin volunteered to play a defensive coverage role in midfield which he knew would take away his numbers, but would free Dusty up. So he doesn't have as many clearances, possessions, or score involvements as many mids who don't have to play that role. So his offensive output is not elite in direct comparsion. But... when it comes his turn to win the footy, lay the big tackle or whatever, he very rarely loses the contest, makes a bad decision, or does something ineffective. He plays the absolute best role he could play at Richmond. We don't know for sure, but if he played like a more conventional mid next year, I don't doubt he could average 27 and kick 20 goals, and be a gun clearance and score involvement player. One thing is for sure - his attack on the footy is elite, as good as anyone I've ever seen, especially for a below avg size guy.
 

Grrr

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Cotchin is elite but had a really average patch for 4-5 years.
Agreed between 2013 and 2016 his game changed. From attacking midfielder he was asked to be the link player and it did him no favours. 2017 saw him go much more aggressively defensive. His game has balanced out over the last few years. Injuries hampered him however.

All this discussion on Trent being elite. He was once as a player, I don't think he is anymore, but he is certainly an elite captain, which is what the Tiges would prefer, and look at the results since he became the stand out skipper in the comp.

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2018 he was flying and playing probably the best I have seen him play. I reckon he carried an injury for the last half of the season because he tailed off. 2019 hamstrings, but if he gets back to fully fit I have no doubt that he could be back to his best. With Prestia and others there to do more of the grunt work, he will be freer to attack which he is very good at. I'd love to see him back at full fitness because he could easily turn back the clock, doesn't seem to have lost any pace.
 

Marcel Proust

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I think it's actually hard to rate Cotchin currently as a player - in comparison to other elite mids - because of his role. Around the time of his Brownlow, he was in the midfield alongside of some big-bodied aggressive blokes in the form of Shane Tuck (what a hero) and Dan Jackson. Cotch didn't need to smash in to quite the same extent. With those guys around him, his form in his Brownlow year was unbelievable, despite Richmond being pretty shit. Fast forward to the period where he was still a very good player but went missing in a few finals, as Richmond were improving. He was expected to smash harder into contests and win the footy than anyone else at Richmond, weighing 84 kg dripping wet (5kg of which come from his hair), with no other big bodies to help. That is a bit unusual in AFL footy, and it makes it hard to compare Cotch in this period to other elite mids. It is not a surprise that in the cauldron of finals footy, he couldn't do this alone. Patrick Cripps or Danger probably could have done better in that context, but they are much bigger men. Then fast forward to 17-19. Cotchin volunteered to play a defensive coverage role in midfield which he knew would take away his numbers, but would free Dusty up. So he doesn't have as many clearances, possessions, or score involvements as many mids who don't have to play that role. So his offensive output is not elite in direct comparsion. But... when it comes his turn to win the footy, lay the big tackle or whatever, he very rarely loses the contest, makes a bad decision, or does something ineffective. He plays the absolute best role he could play at Richmond. We don't know for sure, but if he played like a more conventional mid next year, I don't doubt he could average 27 and kick 20 goals, and be a gun clearance and score involvement player. One thing is for sure - his attack on the footy is elite, as good as anyone I've ever seen, especially for a below avg size guy.
the steve waugh of football
 

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