Opinion Trent West's back up

[pulpdriver]

We brought in Trent West to be back up to our big man, Leuie. With Leuie down West is no longer back up and has to be the big man and our new big man is gonna need some back up. Or something. Who from our list fills that back up position?

In b4 James North calls for an Archie elevation or 3KZ demands Charman be brought out of retirement.


You'd assume that Stefan Martin would be next in line but his condition has only just recently been updated to test. Assuming he's fit he would probably need some time in the twos for conditioning. Been a while since he's played a senior game. If he's fit and in form, he may be the best option but there is currently question marks on both those pre-requisites.

Sauce would probably be next in line but he's suspended and has been flagged as staying down back as a defender. Switching him out of position has generally required an adjustment period for positional shift and we don't want him rusty when he returns to defense. On the flip side, his form has been unimpressive to say the least and switching him to a role as forward/ruck and blooding one of our many junior key defender prospects, or bringing Goose in down back, might help everyone. He's not going to be tapping it town the throats of our mids but when used as a ruck but has been great when the ball hits the deck and his physicality in stoppages has generally been beneficial. He's even won his share of clearances when used in the role from memory.

Archie is our rookie ruckman who seems to be doing well in the reserves but it might simply be a case of too early and given he has is not really an option to rest up forward at this point in his career it's probably wiser to be patient with his development.

Lisle is an option but has never been impressive during his time in the ruck. Tap work not up to par and in the past he hasn't really had the athleticism, mobility or physicality to impact the stoppage in any other way. Additionally, his forward work has never been exceptional and Leppa clearly sees him as a defender and despite some very noticeable hiccups I would say he has been improving with each match in defense or should remain there.

Maguire is probably our last option. Has been working up forward in the reserves and has spent some time in the ruck in the past, albeit relatively forgettable. Doesn't appear to be in Leppa's plans so probably a long shot to be used as a ruck forward but our injury list is extensive so you never know.

 

[lionshine]

I am a bit worried about Trent West as our main Ruck. I have been a big fan of his over the opening 4 Rounds and I think he has been a great recruit however Geelong fans were saying he is a great back up Ruck but he struggles as the main ruck man. Let's hope he proves them wrong.

 

[iBeng]

Sam Michael when fit.

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[pulpdriver]

I am a bit worried about Trent West as our main Ruck. I have been a big fan of his over the opening 4 Rounds and I think he has been a great recruit however Geelong fans were saying he is a great back up Ruck but he struggles as the main ruck man. Let's hope he proves them wrong.

I don't think he's a world beater as a number one ruck but he's well and truly our best option at the moment. God help us if he goes down too.

 

[pulpdriver]

Sam Michael when fit.

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Can't believe I forgot Dadsy. Where has he been playing in the reserves this year?

 

[iBeng]

Can't believe I forgot Dadsy. Where has he been playing in the reserves this year?

I think he's has some hamstring issues so far this season. Injuries are the order of 2014 it seems.

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[Balony_pony16]

We will just have to manage best we can with Brown, lisle, clark and goose (if he comes in) rucking forward and back. I would also expect us to deploy a heap of 3rd man up around the ground

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[Ironmonger]

I don't mind it for one game. I reckon Stefan Martin should come in as soon as possible.

Martin isn't much good as a forward, but I reckon he's okay as a ruckman.

 

[James North]

For some reason I don't think having a far superior ruck is such a big deal these days. Midfielders are so great at stealing the ball, tackling and pressure that it almost doesn't matter who gets the first touch ... just who ends up winning it from the scrap.

I mean, that is unless your ruck is Archie Smith. Then it's the most important position.

 

[PTizzle]

I don't mind it for one game. I reckon Stefan Martin should come in as soon as possible.

Martin isn't much good as a forward, but I reckon he's okay as a ruckman.

Totally agree. When Stef is fit I'd have him as the main ruck and West back to the second banana.

West has been good but I think he excels in that forward/ruck role rather than the main one.

Otherwise Michael seems as good a shout as any. Doesn't seem like Maguire is likely to be picked bar even more catastrophic injuries. Merrett will come good in defense.

 

[Bucking Beads]

Stef Martin is a really handy ruck. Good around the grounds.

 

[Lace Out]

Trent West is a late developing gun and should be ok on his own.

Two or three third man ups from Lewis Taylor should be enough.

 

[James North]

In b4 James North calls for an Archie elevation or 3KZ demands Charman be brought out of retirement.

Archie is our rookie ruckman who seems to be doing well in the reserves but it might simply be a case of too early and given he has is not really an option to rest up forward at this point in his career it's probably wiser to be patient with his development.

I don't know why everyone thinks I'm on some kind of Archie Bandwagon. He's the greatest ruck/forward in the AFL, you guys just don't know it yet.

If he had the ability to play more minutes, I actually think if his role was just to tap and do a bit of defence or dishing off from a contest ... he'd actually do ok at AFL level right now. But he'll have to improve other facets of his game before he genuinely gets a run.

I'd say he might get a shot next year if we're a bit short .. but only 1-5 games.

The following year, though ... look out Leuey.

 

[Monterronaldo]

Reckon we have to try Stef Martin as a ruck once he is fit. He is in second year with us and has spent most of that time injured. If he doesnt show promise there i have a feeling he wont be with us for much longer .

 

[Ironmonger]

Trent West is a late developing gun and should be ok on his own.

Two or three third man ups from Lewis Taylor should be enough.

You know, I've actually been really impressed by West.

I don't think we quite give him the credit he deserves.

You look at players like Hale, Maric, Jacobs and Mumford: ruckmen often don't reach their peak until they're at their second club.

I reckon that just might turn out to be a quality call, Lace Out.

 

[Monkey Daniel]

For some reason I don't think having a far superior ruck is such a big deal these days. Midfielders are so great and stealing the ball, tackling and pressure that it almost doesn't matter who gets the first touch ... just who ends up winning it from the scrap.

Which is basically why Leigh Matthews said that Sandilands wasn't much to get excited about, as Freo weren't winning all of the clearances.. ( or words to that effect )

 

[Chasing the Dream]

Which is basically why Leigh Matthews said that Sandilands wasn't much to get excited about, as Freo weren't winning all of the clearances.. ( or words to that effect )

I like how LeighMatthews liked that

 

[Milux]

Why not billy long...... Oh right.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

I am a bit worried about Trent West as our main Ruck. I have been a big fan of his over the opening 4 Rounds and I think he has been a great recruit however Geelong fans were saying he is a great back up Ruck but he struggles as the main ruck man. Let's hope he proves them wrong.

I think that's partly correct, but my real issue with the set-up at Geelong after Ottens retired was that West never had an adequate sidekick for any great length of time. It started out as a partnership between West and Orren Stephenson, which didn't work because Stephenson's not good enough to be a #1 and doesn't really do anything else, besides ruck. Then, for a while, they pretty much tried West as a lone hand, where he was solid and battled manfully, but I seriously think it had some long-term effects on him as a player, because, before that, he'd get around the ground, take some good pack marks, kick goals...when he was rucking solo, his primary focus was just to get to the next ruck contest and his around the ground contributions dried up significantly.

Besides that, he was paired up with some pseudo-ruckmen, like Nathan Vardy and Josh Walker (I'm being very kind in Walker's case) and had a couple of games with a woefully underdone Dawson Simpson. As a tandem, he worked pretty well with Vardy and I would have loved to see how West and Simpson would work as a long-term partnership in the AFL. Then, in 2013, he was mainly paired with an incredibly raw Blicavs, until he fell out of favour. So, he never really had an extended stint, with a bona fide second ruckman, since Ottens retired. Vardy was probably the closest and they were pretty decent together, since both have a couple more strings to their bow than just being the old-school dinosaurs.

In short, I reckon if Martin, or whoever else steps in is as capable as someone like Vardy in the ruck, it should be an ok combination, as long as West stays fit (and he was pretty durable with the Cats).

 

[Ray Button]

Last trade/draft season, I pushed the wagon for Cameron Wood as a cheap, mature, sizeable backup a couple of times when it was pretty obvious that we were going to be short of ruck options. Compare the following career averages:

Player Age Games Kicks H'balls Disposals Marks Goals Behinds Tackles Hitouts Frees_For Frees_Against
Shaun Hampson 26 66 3.5 4.7 8.2 2.8 0.5 0.4 1.7 16.2 1.0 1.0
Trent West 26 58 4.7 4.5 9.2 2.5 0.4 0.2 2.2 20.0 1.1 1.2
Cam Wood 27 64 5.1 5.2 10.3 3.5 0.3 0.2 2.0 15.0 0.7 0.8

The numbers are not too dissimilar - if anything, Wood looks more useful around the ground than the others, and at 204cm and 105kg is big enough to mix it with anyone these days. Hampson and West were traded to their respective new clubs for picks 28 and 41 respectively. Malthouse cleverly picked up Wood for bugger-all in the Rookie Draft after a very solid season for Williamstown in the VFL. Now, he's an even chance to take over from Kreuzer and Warnock for the Carlton seniors. I reckon we could have had Wood back for a similar minor outlay.

The Lions entered this season with only three proper ruckmen for two teams (Leuey, West and Smith), and with Smith a project player destined to develop his potential in the Ressies. Others, like Martin and Michael are certainly not first rucks and can only barely fill in as second or support rucks. Not surprisingly, with only one main ruckman down we find ourselves with a problem. God help us if West get injured as well. He's not looked too bad so far, but I'd like to see a bit more aggression in his game.

Our best option at the moment would have to be Martin finding some form and durability.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Last trade/draft season, I pushed the wagon for Cameron Wood as a cheap, mature, sizeable backup a couple of times when it was pretty obvious that we were going to be short of ruck options. Compare the following career averages:

Player Age Games Kicks H'balls Disposals Marks Goals Behinds Tackles Hitouts Frees_For Frees_Against
Shaun Hampson 26 66 3.5 4.7 8.2 2.8 0.5 0.4 1.7 16.2 1.0 1.0
Trent West 26 58 4.7 4.5 9.2 2.5 0.4 0.2 2.2 20.0 1.1 1.2
Cam Wood 27 64 5.1 5.2 10.3 3.5 0.3 0.2 2.0 15.0 0.7 0.8

The numbers are not too dissimilar - if anything, Wood looks more useful around the ground than the others, and at 205cm and 105kg is big enough to mix it with anyone these days. Hampson and West were traded to their respective new clubs for picks 28 and 41 respectively. Malthouse cleverly picked up Wood for bugger-all in the Rookie Draft after a very solid season for Williamstown in the VFL. Now, he's an even chance to take over from Kreuzer and Warnock for the Carlton seniors. I reckon we could have had Wood back for a similar minor outlay.

The Lions entered this season with only three proper ruckmen for two teams (Leuey, West and Smith), and with Smith a project player destined to develop his potential in the Ressies. Others, like Martin and Michael are certainly not first rucks and can only barely fill in as second or support rucks. Not surprisingly, with only one main ruckman down we find ourselves with a problem. God help us if West get injured as well. He's not looked too bad so far, but I'd like to see a bit more aggression in his game.

Our best option at the moment would have to be Martin finding some form and consistency.

It may have been a decent idea to pick up someone like Wood in the rookie draft, but I guess the flip side of that is what we (Geelong supporters) experienced last year; playing the preseason with a ruck tandem of Blicavs and Walker and going into Round 1 with West (off practically zero preseason) and Blicavs.

The thing is, every list has a tipping point with ruckmen. If you continue to sustain injuries to genuine ruckmen, there comes a time when you need to make do with whatever else you have on the list, because having a one dimensional ruckman as the sixth in line for your team is going to be a waste of a list spot (even on the rookie list) 95% of the time. We had West, Simpson, McIntosh and Vardy all out in February/March last year, with no ballpark return date for most of them. I don't think any club in the league can plan to have a watertight contingency in place if three #1 ruckmen and its best #2 ruckman are injured at the same time. If we'd been able to bring in someone like Stephenson at that stage, it would have just meant that we had way too many mature ruckmen on our list.

When I had a bit of a look at some preseason threads here and most agreed that West was going to be an emergency, for the most part. So, do you get someone like Wood in to be a back-up to the back-up? I think once you get to the fourth or fifth ruckman in line on the list, unless you're developing an <21 beanpole, you're probably best off with someone like Martin (not necessarily Martin specifically, just someone who brings similar attributes to the table), because they can provide coverage for you in other areas.

 

[Fatcat08]

I actually think Martin is a reasonably decent ruck. His year rucking at melbourne was pretty good IMO. Its up forward that I'm not convinced he offers a lot. I would definitely consider him part of our ruck brigade, but he's injured at the moment.

 

[Ray Button]

It may have been a decent idea to pick up someone like Wood in the rookie draft, but I guess the flip side of that is what we (Geelong supporters) experienced last year; playing the preseason with a ruck tandem of Blicavs and Walker and going into Round 1 with West (off practically zero preseason) and Blicavs.

The thing is, every list has a tipping point with ruckmen. If you continue to sustain injuries to genuine ruckmen, there comes a time when you need to make do with whatever else you have on the list, because having a one dimensional ruckman as the sixth in line for your team is going to be a waste of a list spot (even on the rookie list) 95% of the time. We had West, Simpson, McIntosh and Vardy all out in February/March last year, with no ballpark return date for most of them. I don't think any club in the league can plan to have a watertight contingency in place if three #1 ruckmen and its best #2 ruckman are injured at the same time. If we'd been able to bring in someone like Stephenson at that stage, it would have just meant that we had way too many mature ruckmen on our list.

When I had a bit of a look at some preseason threads here and most agreed that West was going to be an emergency, for the most part. So, do you get someone like Wood in to be a back-up to the back-up? I think once you get to the fourth or fifth ruckman in line on the list, unless you're developing an <21 beanpole, you're probably best off with someone like Martin (not necessarily Martin specifically, just someone who brings similar attributes to the table), because they can provide coverage for you in other areas.

Sounds alright, bit I'd like to reiterate two points:

(i) I rate West and Wood as pretty much the same, and

(ii) Leppa always stated that he intended to play two ruckmen, so in my thinking Wood would have been the backup while in the meantime providing some solidarity and support to Smith.

 

[Dan12]

I think Martin and West are a pretty decent combination. Sam Michael is also a reasonable ruckman with size and competitiveness. IIRC he was BOG in a reserves GF playing in the ruck and did quite well against Geelong last year. Once we get Martin and Michael fit our ruck stocks will look quite okay.

 

[Crawb]

Probably just rotate it between people.