Two Rucks

[loki04]

You're having a laugh. Nathan was routinely in our worst handful from the end of 2008 through the first few rounds of 2009. That's not an indictment on him as he's a very young tall, it's just the facts. His best is better than Leigh Brown's and I'd like to see him in the team, but I think people get carried away with youth a bit at times. Come finals time, age is irrelevant.

who said anything about 08 and age?

N.Brown as a defender is better then L.Brown full stop.

Maybe rnds 1 and 2 but after that he was playing well not poor by any means and a few inbetween games was good in.

Not everyone is going to star each week he did his job most weeks without being beaten and that is playing well.

 

[kevind]

BS it has, he was one of our best backs in quite a few games this year and solid in the rest was no weak link lets put it that way.

He was having a good/solid year till he was dropped due to the dogs small forward line, then because of L.Brown going back has struggled to get back in even though L.Brown has been performing worse in the role.

Before you go around making BS awards, perhaps you could enlighten us with the games in which he was 'one of our best defenders'. To me, you are confusing age and potential with actual performance.

I think NB will struggle to find a place in the team for the finals based on form and possibly even more so if the reports of his slow progress to overcome a knee complaint are true. L Brown is no world beater but he has performed slightly better than NB in defensive roles this year IMO.

The big question is whether L Brown will be found out in finals. I will hold my breath on that one. Players of his ilk often stumble badly at the final hurdle.

If we could only clone Presti!!!!!

 

[loki04]

Before you go around making BS awards, perhaps you could enlighten us with the games in which he was 'one of our best defenders'. To me, you are confusing age and potential with actual performance.

I think NB will struggle to find a place in the team for the finals based on form and possibly even more so if the reports of his slow progress to overcome a knee complaint are true. L Brown is no world beater but he has performed slightly better than NB in defensive roles this year IMO.

The big question is whether L Brown will be found out in finals. I will hold my breath on that one. Players of his ilk often stumble badly at the final hurdle.

If we could only clone Presti!!!!!

When was he beaten?

I can't recall the exact game but there were at least 2 games in the 1st 10 rounds he was in the top 3 defenders for us.

Maxwell didn't hit any form till after suspension.
Presti has been consistently good all year bar against Franklin.
Shaw started slow and built from there.
O'brien has had a great year and is in a lul atm but not playing poor.
N.Brown hasn't had a shocker from memory and has filled his role all year (when in the side) and played a couple good games.
L.Brown was smashed by J.Brown, was at his unskillful best last week and is at best ok.
Goldsack has been up and down like a yoyo.
Toovey has been solid despite his flaws.

Wasn't saying he has been our best defender but at a point he was one of the better defender s for a few weeks there and after that was solid.

In saying that if his knee is still playing up I wouldn't play him, didn't know it was.

 

[Mental Magpie]

Before you go around making BS awards, perhaps you could enlighten us with the games in which he was 'one of our best defenders'. To me, you are confusing age and potential with actual performance.

I think NB will struggle to find a place in the team for the finals based on form and possibly even more so if the reports of his slow progress to overcome a knee complaint are true. L Brown is no world beater but he has performed slightly better than NB in defensive roles this year IMO.

The big question is whether L Brown will be found out in finals. I will hold my breath on that one. Players of his ilk often stumble badly at the final hurdle.

If we could only clone Presti!!!!!

I'm holding my breath too! BUT; he never had the Old Master Jedi Mick Malthouse using mind tricks on his arse!

I like LB. He lacks pace, and finesse, but has Mongrel is spades! We need that. NB needs to add that to his game. Not sure if he can 'cause he seems such a nice lad.

 

[cakewalk06]

Firstly let me just say I am a Josh Fraser fan and have always been and believe if not for that knee injury suffered in pre-season in 2005, i think it was, and then complications he would be far more highly rated than he is now.
But I have to dispel a couple of myths in this thread.

1 - Josh is not a key position forward and powerful mark as some have indicated. He is not going to play full-forward or chf and take big contested grabs. His go is drifting down the forward line and finding space... He is a clever player rather than a powerhouse. Also, I don't like him as a permanent forward as I don't think he can put enough pressure on to lock the ball in.

2 - I don't believe you can play him as a wingman simply because he is so mobile for big man. He is mobile compared to the other big men he plays on WHEN HE IS IN THE RUCK. If you put him on a wing and he was matched up on a proper wingman, he will be badly exposed for speed and agility.

I want to see two ruckmen in for finals: Wood and Fraser. When Fraser is not in the ruck he either is benched or playing forward pocket; when he is in the ruck he can follow and drift forward. When Wood is not in the ruck I would like to see him benched and when on i like him playing behind the ball.

Also, i would hate to see Rocca (or any tall for that matter) in for Dick. I don't think you can overestimate the importance of putting pressure on defenders. Dick is outstanding in this area. I don't believe his stats matter one jot, he is like lightning chasing after the ball-carrier when he is on song..

that's my two-bob's worth!

 

[magpiewarrior]

Take a look at the best side in the comp. Roo, Kosi, King, Gardiner....... they are a tall side. JA can play Dicks role, with more aggression! Rest him in the pocket and rotate Thomas, Medhurst, Davis etc through Dicks position.
Don't get me wrong, I love what Dick brings to the side, but you need HARD bodies come finals. That's why Jonno stays. Dick hurt his shoulder trying to tackle. He's way too light weight for my liking, needs a couple of years on the protein shakes, KFC and Kebabs whilst pumping big weights in the Gym.
Rocca, JA and Medders, with Fraser roaming forward of centre.......... throw in a Didak, Davis, Thomas, Swan, Cloke....... **** me! Who the hell is going to stop that forward line?!

Yes he is small and skinny, but he didn't hurt his shoulder in a tackle it was in a pack marking situation where he was trying to reach over and spoil. It was just one of those freaky things that happen. He never shirks a bump or collision and will tackle anyone. I've seen him take take some real big hits and bounce up still running and making second and third efforts. Also like Tarks, Daisy, Leon and The Sack he will give an honest genuine chase to apply pressure even if it seems unrealistic to expect to actually catch the ball carrier, which is why everyone talks about his forward pressure.

 

[magpiewarrior]

Cakewalk06 I agree with most of your post but I still think wing is the go, you can't rest him on the bench because more often than not he seems to have trouble getting back into the game when he comes back on from the bench. That IMHO is the reason why he has done so well when he has rucked the whole game on his own.

 

[Mental Magpie]

Yes he is small and skinny, but he didn't hurt his shoulder in a tackle it was in a pack marking situation where he was trying to reach over and spoil. It was just one of those freaky things that happen. He never shirks a bump or collision and will tackle anyone. I've seen him take take some real big hits and bounce up still running and making second and third efforts. Also like Tarks, Daisy, Leon and The Sack he will give an honest genuine chase to apply pressure even if it seems unrealistic to expect to actually catch the ball carrier, which is why everyone talks about his forward pressure.

Totally agree!

Wasn't that one the second time he hurt it?

He did go off twice, I was referring to the first time he went off.

 

[kevind]

Cakewalk06 I agree with most of your post but I still think wing is the go, you can't rest him on the bench because more often than not he seems to have trouble getting back into the game when he comes back on from the bench. That IMHO is the reason why he has done so well when he has rucked the whole game on his own.

Sorry magpiewarrior, Cakewalk06 is right on the money. IMO, it was a quality post and I agree with him on every point he made.

I can't see the point of Fraser on a wing. Do any teams actually play wingers anymore??? To me, you would be just adding Fraser to our midfield at someone elses expense. It would just slow us down with 2 giants in the midfield.

With the improvements from Didak, Swan ect and the high rotation policy, we have developed a good midfield. Why tamper with what has worked so far just to have Josh on the field??? Playing him off the bench, with short bursts up forward would keep him fresher and gain us advantage with his mobility in comparison to the ruckman he would be opposed to.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

1 - Josh is not a key position forward and powerful mark as some have indicated. He is not going to play full-forward or chf and take big contested grabs. His go is drifting down the forward line and finding space... He is a clever player rather than a powerhouse. Also, I don't like him as a permanent forward as I don't think he can put enough pressure on to lock the ball in.

2 - I don't believe you can play him as a wingman simply because he is so mobile for big man. He is mobile compared to the other big men he plays on WHEN HE IS IN THE RUCK. If you put him on a wing and he was matched up on a proper wingman, he will be badly exposed for speed and agility.

I tend to agree that Josh is not really a forward or an around the ground type. Which begs the question of whether we can afford to have him sitting on his ass for half a game when we've spent most of the year not having a ruckman on the bench. Its hard to keep up the rotations when you only have three rather than four versatile interchange players.

If we want a back-up ruck who plays forward, then theres some strong arguments that Rocca as a far better forward than Fraser would be more likely to come into the side and have an effect. If we are looking for a direct replacement for Dawes, then Rocca is the man. Fraser has been out for a while anyway and may need a run in the VFL.

It all boils down to the OP - one ruck or two??? One gives us tremendous flexibility. Two gives us a more traditional line-up and a legitimate contingency plan should one ruck have a bad day.

At the end of the day I think I'd prefer Fraser over Rocca, but it might be a very tight decision.

 

[Old Spice]

Yep, that is the question, one or two rucks and everything flows from there.

Timmy I reckon that with the selection this week that Mick will see how the two ruck combo goes and Rocca is not necessarily out of finals contention.