MMA-UFC UFC 203: Miocic vs Overeem

[Guy Threepwood]

More insightful comments from Edmund.

I can't think of a worse high profile coach in MMA. What does he offer? His speciality is boxing and nobody who has gone there has shown any improvement with their hands. They all seem to have regressed while working with him with their footwork. A lot of them have gone there with clear areas of weakness on the feet and have apparently got worse under him. His work in the corner seems completely unhelpful. Does he do the gameplanning? Probably because it seems non-existent for fighters at that gym.

OSP's coaching team seems really bad. They're a small team and nobody has been flocking there like fighters have been to Edmond's. Henri Hooft seems to be a really bad cornerman. Yelling at his fighters to not give up seems to be his go to in the corner. He yelled that at Rumble, which seems like the worst thing to put in that guy's head. However, he seems to be a really good striking coach.

Edmond doesn't look like he offers much that's a positive for his fighters. People were flocking there in the past, but it seems like nobody has been lately and some of those who did have since left.

Agree 100% on Edmond. It's bizarre that high profile fighters have and continue to seek out his training. It was no surprise to me that Ellenberger looked as good as we've seen in ages the fight after he left GFC.

Harsh on Hooft though IMO. Yeah, he did yell that at Rumble but I've been impressed with his cornering in other fights. At a minimum you can see the fighters he trains seem to improve, unlike those at GFC.

 

[BradWCE]

Agree 100% on Edmond. It's bizarre that high profile fighters have and continue to seek out his training. It was no surprise to me that Ellenberger looked as good as we've seen in ages the fight after he left GFC.

Harsh on Hooft though IMO. Yeah, he did yell that at Rumble but I've been impressed with his cornering in other fights. At a minimum you can see the fighters he trains seem to improve, unlike those at GFC.

Hooft yelled something like that at Michael Johnson in his fight with Diaz too. I don't make much of him as a cornerman, but that might be based on little evidence. I think the Blackzilians should probably get him to keep his advice technical in the corner. And have someone else focus on the positive/negative reinforcements.

I agree that he's seems to be a great striking coach. Everyone there seems to be getting better on the feet. Some are becoming really good dutch kickboxers for MMA's standards.

 

[the_interloper]

Underwhelming main 3 fights, not a great look for the standard of the HW division with yesterday's efforts, was making me wonder what sort of effect USADA is having on the HW division. I reckon Cain would have been watching and been pretty confident about winning the title when he gets another shot.

 

[BradWCE]

Not sure if I didn't make it clear last night, but I don't think Hooft is anywhere near one of the worst coaches in the sport. I just meant to point out that he appears to be a bad cornerman, like Edmond. However, he appears to do a lot of other stuff that's really good. Just wanted to make sure my opinion wasn't misunderstood. Hooft's really good.

Apparently in the WWE they did a sort of reenactment of CM Punk's fight. I recall that CM Punk and Daniel Bryan did something similar with the Silva/Sonnen 2 ending.


I've seen the play by play of Punk's fight, I've seen the fightmetric stats, I've seen a gif and I've watched Luke Thomas' breakdown of the fight. From all of that I can say that Punk is very lucky that Gall wasn't a mean bastard who wanted to really teach him that he doesn't belong in the UFC. If Gall wanted to he could have beat the absolute piss out of Punk until the referee dragged him off or until Punk tapped to strikes. Gall showed Punk mercy by grabbing a hold of his neck instead.



Thomas' breakdown is exactly what was needed. He tells everyone all the huge, basic errors Punk made in a short fight. Those errors are to be expected from someone in Punk's position. However, his performance deserves this amount of scrutiny when you put him on a PPV main card and put a lot of effort into promoting him.

What on earth was Punk trying to achieve with the way he came out? He's lucky Gall faked the punch instead of throwing it because that would have done a number on him. He's also lucky Gall took him down because if not that was going to be one of the sloppiest punches thrown in UFC history by Punk. I guess it was actually, but it's hidden well by Gall taking him down. Punk gave himself no chance right out of the gate.

 

[Dan]

Half way through throwing that punch....''Oh shiiiiiiit!''

 

[bkozican]

Just shows why it takes decades to master BJJ

 

[bkozican]

Half way through throwing that punch....''Oh shiiiiiiit!''

"...Thats right, takedowns" lol

 

[BradWCE]

How weird is it that Gall's first two UFC fights were against guys making their pro MMA debuts? When's the last time that happened? Has to be back in the very early days of the UFC.

Gall's fought 3 times as a pro and twice as an amateur. The combined records of the 5 guys he's fought are 0-3 pro and 5-9 amateur. There's nothing wrong with that for a guy who's 3-0 as a pro, but he's 2-0 in the UFC. It's just so weird.

The only Gall fight I've seen was the one with Jackson that went for 45 seconds. Maybe those who've seen his 3 pro fights or it might have to be those fights as well as his amateur fights will have a better read on him. I have no idea about him. All I know is that he likes to take you down, get to your back and submit you with a rear naked choke. That works well against the level of fighter he's come up against so far. It might very quickly no longer work against stiffer challenges and then we'll see exactly what he's got.

Calling out Northcutt was very smart. Northcutt has a pretty big name and is one of the worst fighters in the UFC LW and WW divisions right now. Unless Northcutt has improved a lot since his last fight, Gall should have a good shot at winning. Northcutt is all offence and no defence at the moment. That's usually what you get from young, inexperienced fighters, especially those training primarily with their father.

Northcutt gives everyone trouble early when they haven't got used to his speed and explosiveness. If Gall's tough enough to survive the early striking attack from Northcutt he should be able to take him down and go to work from top position. Or he could duck under a Northcutt strike and take him down straight away. Really tough fight to have much clue about who wins. It'd make sense for both guys and would likely be quite fun while it lasted. It looks like Gall, Northcutt and the UFC want the fight, so it'll probably happen which is fine.

 

[BEEG]

http://www.ewrestlingnews.com/news/cm-punk-s-salary-for-ufc-203-revealed

 

[DazalenkoUBewty]

Not sure if I didn't make it clear last night, but I don't think Hooft is anywhere near one of the worst coaches in the sport. I just meant to point out that he appears to be a bad cornerman, like Edmond. However, he appears to do a lot of other stuff that's really good. Just wanted to make sure my opinion wasn't misunderstood. Hooft's really good.

Apparently in the WWE they did a sort of reenactment of CM Punk's fight. I recall that CM Punk and Daniel Bryan did something similar with the Silva/Sonnen 2 ending.


I've seen the play by play of Punk's fight, I've seen the fightmetric stats, I've seen a gif and I've watched Luke Thomas' breakdown of the fight. From all of that I can say that Punk is very lucky that Gall wasn't a mean bastard who wanted to really teach him that he doesn't belong in the UFC. If Gall wanted to he could have beat the absolute piss out of Punk until the referee dragged him off or until Punk tapped to strikes. Gall showed Punk mercy by grabbing a hold of his neck instead.



Thomas' breakdown is exactly what was needed. He tells everyone all the huge, basic errors Punk made in a short fight. Those errors are to be expected from someone in Punk's position. However, his performance deserves this amount of scrutiny when you put him on a PPV main card and put a lot of effort into promoting him.

What on earth was Punk trying to achieve with the way he came out? He's lucky Gall faked the punch instead of throwing it because that would have done a number on him. He's also lucky Gall took him down because if not that was going to be one of the sloppiest punches thrown in UFC history by Punk. I guess it was actually, but it's hidden well by Gall taking him down. Punk gave himself no chance right out of the gate.

I hope he doesn't watch that replay

 

[phantom13]

Such a strange card...

Faber finally looking old AF
Jo Jo looking good til she didn't
Werdum doing... everything he did
Browne, man, has someone ever fallen off a cliff that badly before, he has no idea what to do or how to do it anymore
CM Punk. Read a good article on BR last night. It might be enough to get in and compete in MMA for most, but most aren't doing it in the Octagon, elite sport is ruthless and he never should have been in there. Having said all that if it puts bums on seats and gets more money in for others im all for it. I wont lie I got into it when he walked out.
Stipe is legit, Wild fight and anyone at heavyweight can lose but that ground and pound was hard to watch, in the best possible way.

 

[Barry Roundhouse]

On submission radios poscast they reviewed the whole CM punk thing with a media member (cant remember) and he said he had spoken to a few UFC executives and match makers (hinted at joe silva) who were against the idea from the start and it was all Danas idea and he was backed by Lorenzo on it.

Basically everyone stayed out of it and let Dana do his thing.

When Micky Gall called punk out on looking for a fight, Dana just ran with it because it was good for the show.

He also said it was clear Dana didnt give a * about punk and just hired him for the $$$ and he will be let go, because the prez wants to distance himself from the whole situation.

 

[nobbyiscool]

They won't let him go til they see a buy rate. I doubt that card does more than 350-400k without Punk - anything on top of that is down to him.

Also, I don't buy that Dana "just ran with it" (Gall). Gall is a good fighter, he's a good looking kid, and he can hype a fight. He's getting the Northcutt push, he just got it against a more high profile opponent.

 

[Barry Roundhouse]

They won't let him go til they see a buy rate. I doubt that card does more than 350-400k without Punk - anything on top of that is down to him.

Also, I don't buy that Dana "just ran with it" (Gall). Gall is a good fighter, he's a good looking kid, and he can hype a fight. He's getting the Northcutt push, he just got it against a more high profile opponent.

The punk being released part was his opinion and not fact, but it seems almost everyone is of that opinion. I dont think the profit he brings in even come close to the hit in credibility the UFC copped for having him fight. Most of the UFC higher ups were against it.

Gall probably would have been signed anyway, or at least told to have a few more fights and then would have been in the ufc.

Him being punks opponent was danas call and there was very little scouting on their comparable abilitys. Something Joe Silva would never allow to happen if it was his call.

 

[nobbyiscool]

The punk being released part was his opinion and not fact, but it seems almost everyone is of that opinion. I dont think the profit he brings in even come close to the hit in credibility the UFC copped for having him fight. Most of the UFC higher ups were against it.

Gall probably would have been signed anyway, or at least told to have a few more fights and then would have been in the ufc.

Him being punks opponent was danas call and there was very little scouting on their comparable abilitys. Something Joe Silva would never allow to happen if it was his call.

True - but the flipside of that is that if he's say, doubled the buy rate (I doubt he has, but if), they aren't going to let him walk to Bellator.

The compromise is probably that he stays under UFC contract and his next fight is in one of the minor feds that they show on Fight Pass.

I doubt the goal was ever for Punk to be credible and to be fighting guys he could beat. I think the end goal was always to try and create a star of his opponent. But that's only me guessing.

 

[BradWCE]

Also, I don't buy that Dana "just ran with it" (Gall). Gall is a good fighter, he's a good looking kid, and he can hype a fight. He's getting the Northcutt push, he just got it against a more high profile opponent.

He's not really getting the Northcutt push. Northcutt was shoved down our throats from his first UFC fight. Gall's not getting half of that. He's also not getting paid like Northcutt. Northcutt made $80,000 to fight Pfister on Fight Pass in his second UFC fight. Gall made $30,000 to fight a celebrity in the most heavily promoted fight on a PPV main card.

I don't really get it. Gall seems to be a far more interesting person than Northcutt and appears to be similarly skilled. Although I guess the majority of MMA fans tend to rarely share my opinion on who's more interesting.

Maybe if Gall dyed his hair blonde he'd fare better. Or maybe it's Northcutt's 'I'm from the south and I'm so nice' thing he's got going on. Or maybe it's that he has some nice muscles.

I watched a couple of Gall's earlier fights. He's good for someone with his amount of experience, but I wouldn't say he's really shown himself to be a good fighter just yet.

Gall's pro debut:



Gall's 2nd and final amateur bout:

 

[BradWCE]

http://www.mmafighting.com/2016/9/12/12885856/monday-morning-analyst-how-mickey-gall-beat-cm-punk

Someone in the comments says: "We don’t know anything about CM Punk as a fighter because he didn’t get a chance to show anything". Lol

At first I thought obviously this is some CM Punk fan who's just recently stumbled upon MMA. Then I see that they've commented 2,405 times on mmafighting.com and joined before Punk's decision to fight in the UFC was made public. I don't know how someone can be this clueless.

Another thing that holds Punk back is his straight edge lifestyle. Unless that's just a gimmick but supposedly it's for real. There are No PEDs going into his old body to give him the help he clearly needs. Although, I guess he's not as hardcore a straight edge person as you can be. Some don't consume caffeine and I assume Punk does considering he got a Pepsi tattoo.

 

[bkozican]

Maybe it was one big way to market Gall...it worked for me

 

[BradWCE]

It's interesting reading opinions on whether Punk deserves $500,000. I guess since he was able to fight in the UFC he actually should be paid that well because he's seemingly bringing in a lot of viewers. Maybe not as many as the UFC hoped given Dana White's comments about Punk after the fight. I'm pretty happy to see that Punk wasn't the highest paid on the card. He'll probably get PPV points and I'm not sure Overeem will. So, Punk may well end up being the highest paid in the end.

I don't think Punk should have been in the position that he was in to begin with. What does my opinion and me not buying the PPV mean to the UFC? Nothing. Almost everyone else still bought it despite them not liking Punk being on the card. Others who would have never bought it without Punk ended up buying it because of him. Them not getting my money does * all, but that's the best I could do.

I don't get the interest in him fighting. He was always going to suck as this article points out. There are good fighters that are worth spending your time watching.

Punk's as good as fighters you could find on some tiny regional promotion getting beat up for $500 or less. It'd be cheaper watching those fights and you'd get the same thing. You'd be supporting people who are only living their dream, and nothing more. CM Punk was living his dream. He was also getting paid really well. He also had the ability to not work for 21 months while training to prepare for the fight that he dreamed about. And really it seems like his dream was to be a professional wrestler. Once that was over he had a new dream. He got to live it. Good for him. I respect him for having the guts to fight in MMA. Just don't bullshit me by reducing it to something that it's not.

Punk had it easier than all the pro wrestlers that I can think of in the recent past. Brock Lesnar had to fight outside the UFC first. Dave Bautista fought on some small show to realise his dream. Bobby Lashley debuted on a small show. All of these guys were more qualified skills-wise for the UFC than CM Punk. This very rich and famous man had his dream handed to him and some think this should warm my heart. Lol.

Some of the stuff I've mentioned is talked about in more detail in this article. I believe someone earlier in the thread mentioned the article. I think it might be a bit harsh at times, but the gist of the article is something I completely agree with.

I've spent more time posting about Punk than makes any sort of sense. Oh well. I think I'm done with it after this. I've watched some of his stuff in the WWE a while back. I quite enjoyed watching it. He was a very interesting character with his anti-hero gimmick later in his WWE run. That role in pro wrestling really intrigued me when I was younger and was watching the shows every week. When I was young it was Stone Cold being that guy and it was awesome. Punk wasn't that good, but it was still very cool. Thought I'd end this rant on a more positive note.

 

[phantom13]

On merit and ability Punk had no business being in that cage in any capacity. On curiosity and saleability he had as much right as anyone. The UFC and MMA in general is always going to have to tiptoe that line of legitimate and freakshow.

FWIW I think the money he got paid makes it look a lot less like this was his "dream" and much more like he knew this was a cheap was pay day. I'd take $500k to train for 2 years and then jump in the cage and get my brakes beaten off.

 

[DazalenkoUBewty]

 

[BradWCE]

On merit and ability Punk had no business being in that cage in any capacity. On curiosity and saleability he had as much right as anyone. The UFC and MMA in general is always going to have to tiptoe that line of legitimate and freakshow.

The thing is that the UFC haven't really done anything like this for a long time. This is a huge shift in direction for them. The only other thing that really entered freakshow territory in recent years for them was Toney fighting Couture.

I've seen people saying how Punk and Toney fighting in the UFC is very similar. I really don't get that. Sure, Punk put more effort into learning MMA specific skills, but Toney actually had a decorated combat sports career behind him. He was a great boxer. Him fighting Couture was stupid and it was to make MMA look good against boxing. So they stepped into freakshow territory twice in the last 15 years.

There's been almost no tiptoeing between legitimate and freakshow in the UFC since Zuffa's purchase. The UFC have been 'legitimate'. Well that's what they tell us. They compare themselves to sports leagues and say that only the best in the world fight in the UFC. People have rightly said those comparisons are dumb because the fighters aren't paid like people in other sports and because the way they matchmake is the furthest thing from pure sport. Those things are completely true and that makes them comparing themselves to sports outside of combat sports laughable. Now that CM Punk has fought in the UFC those comparisons become even more laughable. They should stop with the bullshit comparisons now.

 

[Ry009]

I would like to think that is a once off and that Punk's outing would be a stern reminder for anyone else thinking of making a jump with zero background in competitive athletic sport, to think again. That being said with WME/IMG I doubt we'll see a push towards a true legit and fair organization.

Lol at Thomas breaking down the Punk/Gall fight, that's like Dermot Brereton giving a long winded run down of an EJ Legends match.

 

[phantom13]

Tim Tebow just got a minor league contract in the MLB (for those that don't know he was a failed NFL QB), not to mention the raft of stars who get no disciplinary action for assaulting spouses, drugs, etc.

Granted the UFC might not have done anything this outlandish in a while they still do what will sell (think Conor v Nate etc). I said before PvZ shouldn't have been granted a release for DWTS as well.

My point is if it sells the UFC (and most sports) will do it. Punk was right on the most extreme edge of this statement but theyre all part of the same family.

If Punk coming in bumps up PPV sales and that flows on to better fighter pay then so be it. Im aware that's not how it works but if the UFC keeps making big money fighters will rightly demand more.

 

[nobbyiscool]

My point is if it sells the UFC (and most sports) will do it. Punk was right on the most extreme edge of this statement but theyre all part of the same family.

If Punk coming in bumps up PPV sales and that flows on to better fighter pay then so be it. Im aware that's not how it works but if the UFC keeps making big money fighters will rightly demand more.

This x1000.

I'm less concerned by whether fan boys and keyboard experts think it delegitimizes UFC, and I'm more concerned about the UFC continuing to win new fans so it can pay it's fighters better.

There were fighters on the undercard at 203 who were earning $10-12k for a fight.

That in and of itself is not enough to risk brain damage and your physical health. But when you consider they have insurance to pay, trainers and seconds to pay, gyms to pay, costs for you and your crew when you get to Cleveland... there are people who have fought on last weekends card and have probably lost money to do it.

Someone like Joanna Calderwood, who fought on the main portion of the card ffs, was paid $25k for her loss. When you factor in that (I'm pretty sure) she's still based out of Scotland, and she's flying a team over from Scotland to train her, she would've gone damn close to working for free on the weekend.

If the occasional gimmick like CM Punk (or Kimbo back in the day) increase PPV buys and result in someone like Calderwood being properly remunerated for giving her body to this sport I don't think anyone can or should complain.