Ukraine on verge of civil war?

[Zidane98]

is this bellingcat evidence?
you'll find Malaysia which is privy to the secret investigation doesn't agree with you

The JIT does not use Belingcat for their evidence.

Netherlands had 193 citizens murdered that day and now hold Rusdia legally responsible. Malaysia will once the criminal investigation had run its course.

You are a disgrace.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

The JIT does not use Belingcat for their evidence.

Netherlands had 193 citizens murdered that day and now hold Rusdia legally responsible. Malaysia will once the criminal investigation had run its course.

You are a disgrace.

why am is disgrace?
there's no official decision
and how do you know Malaysia will too?
you don't know that,! they' transport Minister said no evidence it had to have been Russia from what he's seen

that was a month or two ago after a three year investigation!

so it's all opinions at this point

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

we need to be on the same page mate
I'm providing a quote from a guy who's privy to the secretive investigation and you're calling me"a disgrace"?

come on!

get real here!

https://independentaustralia.net/po.../mh17-and-the-jit-a-flawed-investigation,9555

throwing enough mud and hoping it sticks

The outcome won't be conclusive but it will blame Russia

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

by the way
Ukraine has prior form in bringing down passenger jets

wouldn't be the first time for Ukraine


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

read up on Ukraine's form and getting caught out

and who the USA was trying to pin it on then


we call that historical context and we should be aware of it

 

[Chief]

You are a disgrace.

Please chill out mate. You've just arrived on SRP and we don't want to have to cut you off.

Play the ball, not the man.

 

[Zidane98]

by the way
Ukraine has prior form in bringing down passenger jets

wouldn't be the first time for Ukraine


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

read up on Ukraine's form and getting caught out

and who the USA was trying to pin it on then


we call that historical context and we should be aware of it

You really are showing your ignorance by quoting this disaster.

Firstly, there was no targeting of civilian aircraft at all in this accident. Ukraine military were practising shooting down drones - the missile used was supposed to self destruct, malfunctioned and ended up locking on to the nearest target which happened to be a civilian aircraft.

The US informed Russia where the missile was launched from. Ukraine admitted liability within 8 days of the accident happening:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...ine-admits-it-shot-down-Russian-airliner.html


Unlike your scummy Russian friends who still aren't taking responsibility 4 years down the track who targeted an unknown aircraft in another countries airspace.


You really have to be some kind of fool to quote this incident as "historical context" while failing to quote these two incidents:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902


So Ukraine have no form in targeting civilian aircraft and then trying to deny responsibility.


Russia on the other hand clearly do. But don't let facts get in the way of a good discussion hey?

 

[Zidane98]

why am is disgrace?
there's no official decision
and how do you know Malaysia will too?
you don't know that,! they' transport Minister said no evidence it had to have been Russia from what he's seen

that was a month or two ago after a three year investigation!

so it's all opinions at this point

Your statement is incorrect.

Statement on MH17 released by Malaysian Ministry of Foreign Affairs:

http://www.kln.gov.my/web/guest/pr-...e-mh17-tragedy?redirect=/web/guest/pr-06-2018

That was somehow reported by Russian propaganda sources as Malaysia not holding the Russians responsible. Once again it is not surprising that you quote sources that are rubbish.

 

[Zidane98]

we need to be on the same page mate
I'm providing a quote from a guy who's privy to the secretive investigation and you're calling me"a disgrace"?

come on!

get real here!

https://independentaustralia.net/po.../mh17-and-the-jit-a-flawed-investigation,9555

throwing enough mud and hoping it sticks

The outcome won't be conclusive but it will blame Russia

You might have some credibility if you actually quoted an article that was factually correct.

Quote from your article: "Quite why Belgium was included in the investigation has never been made clear. None of the victims were Belgium citizens. If Belgium had any expertise in air crash investigations it has never been disclosed".

Four of the victims were from Belgium, hence their participation in the investigation.

Also from your top quality article:

"Yet, the JIT’s version of the missile’s trajectory would have it coming toward the plane directly in line of sight of the pilots. It defies credulity that there would be total silence in those final four seconds if, in fact, the missile was coming directly towards them."

No it doesn't defy credibility at all. The missile travels at 3060 km/h (850m second):

https://www.armyrecognition.com/rus..._information_description_pictures_photos.html

There was also significant cloud cover on the day MH17 was shot down. It is not surprising at all that the pilots did not notice the missile before it destroyed their aircraft.

This page also has a clear Russian bias to it with many pro Putin articles on it.

Another stupid argument is why isn't the missile launch detection information released. No military is going to release classified information publically, that's absolutely normal. It was what happened when the US informed Russia that Sibir 1814 had been shot down by an errant Ukranian missile in 2001 - no classified data was publically released.

Besides in any case Russia had the area under much more intense scrutiny - where's the author of this article demanding Russia release classified satellite data proving their innocence (which they surely would have done if they were innocent)?

Instead we get crude fakes like this:
https://www.businessinsider.com/new...ssia-produced-fake-mh17-evidence-2015-10?IR=T

And this:

https://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-p...leased-in-russia-slammed-20141116-11nl7w.html

Both of which are laughable.


It's pretty obvious that the Russians are guilty as all hell. Hence why they won't arrest the suspects in Russia or turn them over to Dutch courts for prosecution. Russia also blocked a resolution for the UN to run a tribunal. Russia has no shame and is only concerned with not wanting to be labelled as the aggressor in East Ukraine which they clearly are once they accept guilt for this outrageous atrocity. And useful clowns who promote nonsensical Russian propaganda only enable them.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

Your statement is incorrect.

Statement on MH17 released by Malaysian Ministry of Foreign Affairs:

http://www.kln.gov.my/web/guest/pr-06-2018/-/asset_publisher/FCk0/content/press-release-ress-statement:-malaysia-s-position-on-developments-concerning-the-mh17-tragedy?redirect=/web/guest/pr-06-2018

That was somehow reported by Russian propaganda sources as Malaysia not holding the Russians responsible. Once again it is not surprising that you quote sources that are rubbish.

can you quote where he says they have evidence it is without doubt Russia?

not Russian sources
reported in Malaysia too

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

You really are showing your ignorance by quoting this disaster.

Firstly, there was no targeting of civilian aircraft at all in this accident. Ukraine military were practising shooting down drones - the missile used was supposed to self destruct, malfunctioned and ended up locking on to the nearest target which happened to be a civilian aircraft.

The US informed Russia where the missile was launched from. Ukraine admitted liability within 8 days of the accident happening:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...ine-admits-it-shot-down-Russian-airliner.html


Unlike your scummy Russian friends who still aren't taking responsibility 4 years down the track who targeted an unknown aircraft in another countries airspace.


You really have to be some kind of fool to quote this incident as "historical context" while failing to quote these two incidents:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902


So Ukraine have no form in targeting civilian aircraft and then trying to deny responsibility.


Russia on the other hand clearly do. But don't let facts get in the way of a good discussion hey?

why would they take responsibility if they didn't do it?
you have no proof they did it...

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

plus youre gettin awfully personal now

not good unless you have concrete proof which you don't
if you did.. it wouldn't be a four year investigation

 

[Zidane98]

why would they take responsibility if they didn't do it?
you have no proof they did it...

- Phone intercepts of the rebels talking to their superiors stating they have shot down a plane - fact.
- We have the rebels on video at the crash site looking for a pilot who parachuted. That's a fact.
- Numerous photos and videos of a BUK missile launcher being transported around Donbass on July 17 - factual information
- Smoke trail from missile launch captured on photo taken from Snizhne (near where the missile was launched deep in rebel held territory) - fact.
- Forensic analyisis of the missile which was recovered from the crash site with the serial number and date of manufacture. Traced back to the Russian military. - Fact
- The aircraft was travelling west to east and was struck by fragments from a BUK missile above and to the left of the aircraft. This indicates an attack from ahead of the aircraft (Rebel held territory).
- There is no evidence of any Ukranian systems or fighter jets shooting the aircraft down. Fact.


I would imagine the Malaysian's doubt is more to whether Russia are directly responsible for the actions of who ordered the shootdown. My personal opinion is that by supplying a SAM missile to be used directly under a busy air route they are. It is akin to giving a 2 year old a loaded shotgun to play with. Russia should have formally advised all of the traffic control authorities and Ukraine itself that it would target aircraft over Donbass. If they had of done that the airspace would have been shut down immediately. But I can see how it could be a legal grey area. Either way Russia are involved either directly or indirectly - that much is pretty much indisputable.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

http://www.abc.net.au/radio/program...-not-clearly-responsible-downing-mh17/9822070

I would think there's much leaning on the Malaysian govt as you can read from this Australian article " breaking ranks" for example

which means it's pretty much a kangaroo court in its secrecy

problem really... needs to be transparent and rock solid

even Bishop talks about most likely

blah blah blah

pretty piss poor

reminds me of Saddam and the incubators in Kuwait
and weapons of mass destruction

The problem with all this is the secrecy leads to mistrust

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

The brave people of Ukraine ar3 fighting against the fascist Russian backed rebels. You are correct there.

In any case you have no evidence at all of Kolomoisky shooting down the plane. He doesn't have thhe ability to for starters.

Your theory is laughable & delusional.

actually the Russians of Ukraine are anti fascist
and they're only holding onto their own land
they're not attaching anyone

I think you have it the wrong way around

right sektor are the fascists in this civil war
check WW2 history

 

[Zidane98]

actually the Russians of Ukraine are anti fascist
and they're only holding onto their own land
they're not attaching anyone

I think you have it the wrong way around

right sektor are the fascists in this civil war
check WW2 history

I don't particularly care about Russian propaganda that you quite obviously consume.

My concern is the Russians providing a SAM, deploying it under one of the major Europe - Asia air routes and proceeding to shot down unidentified targets at will in another countries airspace.

It is absolutely vile & cannot be defended. If the Russians were not allowed to get away with it they may have thought twice before shelling the s**t out of countless Ukrainian civilians.

 

[Zidane98]

http://www.abc.net.au/radio/program...-not-clearly-responsible-downing-mh17/9822070

I would think there's much leaning on the Malaysian govt as you can read from this Australian article " breaking ranks" for example

which means it's pretty much a kangaroo court in its secrecy

problem really... needs to be transparent and rock solid

even Bishop talks about most likely

blah blah blah

pretty piss poor

reminds me of Saddam and the incubators in Kuwait
and weapons of mass destruction

The problem with all this is the secrecy leads to mistrust

The full report with all evidence was released by the JIT. It is on their website. Much of the evidence actually comes from Russian sources. The only real question that remains is if Russia were direct only behind the shootdown or only indirectly responsible for providing the weapon.

Russia has no role to play in the investigation as there were a) no Russian victims or b)the crime did not occur in Russia. I am not sure how you think criminal investigations work but generally evidence is not released until the case is closed. The accused (Russia) should have zero access to the evidence until they answer the charges in a court of law.

But guess what? Russia is refusing to turn over suspects to the Dutch courts or arrest them in Russia. No surprises as to why. Cowards.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

I don't particularly care about Russian propaganda that you quite obviously consume.

My concern is the Russians providing a SAM, deploying it under one of the major Europe - Asia air routes and proceeding to shot down unidentified targets at will in another countries airspace.

It is absolutely vile & cannot be defended. If the Russians were not allowed to get away with it they may have thought twice before shelling the s**t out of countless Ukrainian civilians.

those Ukraine civilians are being shelled by ukrainazis and they're ethnic Russians!

when did donesk dombas attack non Russian civilians? lol
you're hilarious mate

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

The full report with all evidence was released by the JIT. It is on their website. Much of the evidence actually comes from Russian sources. The only real question that remains is if Russia were direct only behind the shootdown or only indirectly responsible for providing the weapon.

Russia has no role to play in the investigation as there were a) no Russian victims or b)the crime did not occur in Russia. I am not sure how you think criminal investigations work but generally evidence is not released until the case is closed. The accused (Russia) should have zero access to the evidence until they answer the charges in a court of law.

But guess what? Russia is refusing to turn over suspects to the Dutch courts or arrest them in Russia. No surprises as to why. Cowards.

that's not a full report
lol

that's why Malaysia isn't in on it

was not transparent

you need to show what happened to the air traffic control tapes in entirity

you can't have edited tape and not address it

The thing is mate when you keep lying about stuff like incubators and Saddam
weapons of mass destruction etc

nobody takes you seriously

and nobody does

it's just the western world by half

The other half and the entire rest of the world which makes up about ninety percent gives this stuff no credibility

simple

transparency and real facts!

then we might begin to make some ground into what's true and what isn't

anything else?

I'm guessing you are going to abuse me again

because you don't have an argument

Holland Australia and Ukraine aren't much framework for truth

 

[Zidane98]

You've been hallucinating mate. Bringing Saddam into this when he has absolutely zero relevance to what is going on in Ukraine.

All you can do is post debunked Russian propaganda. There is a complete transcript of all ATC communications between MH17 & ATC in the original Dutch safety board report (non criminal). Like all Russian propagandists you are short on facts but strong on conspiracies. How is the weather for you at the internet research agency over in St Petersburg btw?

 

[Zidane98]

Holland and Australia lost nearly 230 citizens all up in the disaster. They have much more framework for truth than your Russian mates btw.

And Malaysia have never said there was no evidence to implicate Russia in the disaster. Their last press release on 6 Jun says as much but no surprise you again fail to quote factual information.

 

[Zidane98]

From a purely 'propaganda' angle, I find it interesting that Eliot Higgins, founder of Bellingcat (and previously writer of the 'Brown Moses' blog) is a member of U.S foreign policy think-tank The Atlantic Council.



In fairness I'm not saying that what you read on Bellingcat is truth, lies, or something in between but reading through the website it becomes apparent that many of its investigations have a keen anti-Moscow edge. One of the key planks of Atlantic Council policy is to counter Moscow's influence in Europe with a view towards maintaining Washington's leadership there.

It is important to know more about the players in this game.

Of course all sides will use propaganda, controlling the media message in an attempt to control the public mind. Moscow bullshits. Washington bullshits. Both sides also use truth as a veneer. You'll get facts, but it is 'directed information' and used to convey a wider, deeper message to promote one side and counter the other.

The more I see from both sides the less I want either of these two w***ers, Washington or Moscow, ruling my world.

The Atlantic Council gets most of its funding from donors outside of the US.

The 3 biggest donors were from Norway, Lebanon & UAE. The organisation is not funded or supported in any way by the US govt and/or NATO.

Belingcat presents factual information from publically available sources. That often ends up debunking Russian claims but I wouldn't call it an anti Moscow edge, rather a presentation of factual information.

https://www.google.com.au/search?ie...ource=android-browser&q=atlantic+council+wiki


You are right about bullshitting on. both sides though. Both Trump & Putin administrations are plagued by it.

Russia shooting a civilian airliner out of Ukrainian airspace is not a Russia-US issue though. Those that turn it into a political have a clear agenda.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

phone intercepts?

haha like the fake phone intercepts for the war over fake wmd?

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/02/05/sprj.irq.powell.un/


fool me once but not twice

this is like a sixties tv rerun


we've all seen it before

numerous times

anyway believe what you want and I'll believe it when they can come up with some facts that doesn't sound flimsy

and that is why the Russians don't admit crap

The West has no form in truth

and the rest of the world plus half the West knows it

 

[Zidane98]

phone intercepts?

haha like the fake phone intercepts for the war over fake wmd?

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/02/05/sprj.irq.powell.un/


fool me once but not twice

this is like a sixties tv rerun


we've all seen it before

numerous times

anyway believe what you want and I'll believe it when they can come up with some facts that doesn't sound flimsy

and that is why the Russians don't admit crap

The West has no form in truth

and the rest of the world plus half the West knows it

What absolute nonsense you speak bring up Saddam & Iraq. That's got absolutely zero relevance to the Ukraine situation although over at the internet research agency I guess your pay depends on how much you bring up US mistakes in the past.

Meanwhile just to embarrass you further here's a link from TASS (which I am sure you are well versed on considering your expertise in Russian propaganda)


http://tass.com/world/741164


Donbass militia shot down an AN-26 outside Torez on July 17. Hmmmm - aircraft shot down near Torez on July 17 2014 - does that ring a bell to you?


And another for you tovarisch:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/mh17-crash-hear-moment-russian-3877080

Those phone intercepts were released the night of the shootdown and Kozitsyn even says himself that the call is legitimate.

Now your old mate Strelkov was kind enough to post after the shootdown on his VK page:

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Eur...oints-to-pro-Russia-rebels-in-downing-of-MH17

Unsurprisingly his posts were soon removed after your scumbag Russian mates discovered that they had shot down a civilian aircraft full of people.


Now the above is factual information that you cannot deny. Until you can post factual information yourself you have no argument and are effectively condoning the Russians murdering 298 innocent civilians and not taking responsibility for it.


I'd be asking yourself if it is worth the pay you get at the internet research agency in St Petersburg. I would certainly be embarrassed to be defending Russians and/or separatists just from the above information. That's not even going into the multitude of videos and photographs of your mates transporting a BUK missile launcher in a convoy throughout East Ukraine (and form Russia in the weeks before hand).

 

[smokingjacket]

My personal opinion is that by supplying a SAM missile to be used directly under a busy air route they are. It is akin to giving a 2 year old a loaded shotgun to play with. Russia should have formally advised all of the traffic control authorities and Ukraine itself that it would target aircraft over Donbass. If they had of done that the airspace would have been shut down immediately. But I can see how it could be a legal grey area. Either way Russia are involved either directly or indirectly - that much is pretty much indisputable.

This is a pretty fair take but it's also not what you were saying before. There's obviously a huge difference between a direct and indirect action but people, I even will lay blame at the feet of the US for their actions in Afghanistan in the 80's so the flipside is acknowledging the role Russia played in arming a poorly trained separatist militia with SAM.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

What absolute nonsense you speak bring up Saddam & Iraq. That's got absolutely zero relevance to the Ukraine situation although over at the internet research agency I guess your pay depends on how much you bring up US mistakes in the past.

Meanwhile just to embarrass you further here's a link from TASS (which I am sure you are well versed on considering your expertise in Russian propaganda)


http://tass.com/world/741164


Donbass militia shot down an AN-26 outside Torez on July 17. Hmmmm - aircraft shot down near Torez on July 17 2014 - does that ring a bell to you?


And another for you tovarisch:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/mh17-crash-hear-moment-russian-3877080

Those phone intercepts were released the night of the shootdown and Kozitsyn even says himself that the call is legitimate.

Now your old mate Strelkov was kind enough to post after the shootdown on his VK page:

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Eur...oints-to-pro-Russia-rebels-in-downing-of-MH17

Unsurprisingly his posts were soon removed after your scumbag Russian mates discovered that they had shot down a civilian aircraft full of people.


Now the above is factual information that you cannot deny. Until you can post factual information yourself you have no argument and are effectively condoning the Russians murdering 298 innocent civilians and not taking responsibility for it.


I'd be asking yourself if it is worth the pay you get at the internet research agency in St Petersburg. I would certainly be embarrassed to be defending Russians and/or separatists just from the above information. That's not even going into the multitude of videos and photographs of your mates transporting a BUK missile launcher in a convoy throughout East Ukraine (and form Russia in the weeks before hand).

changing your tune much?

what convoy?
there's no proof of anything you're suggesting
you're merely parroting stuff that's been done to death over multiple wars and proven as lies

we've heard all this before mate.. phone intercepts, wmd caravans been moved around the country

and you know what? they never even said sorry after creating a war in Iraq that's killed over a million souls

you need to understand most people in the world outside the West are not going to fall for it again

and many within the West!

western media and western intelligence sources are very hard time believe by any clear thinker

why did it happen?

form!