Umpire bias against Toby Greene: has it gone too far?

Has the bias against Toby Greene gone too far?


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TheKITC

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Yes but Selwood put his head over the ball as hard as anyone ever, but did develop the arm raise to an art form. Greene has a list of indiscretions an arm long. Nothing like Selwood as a player.
Except that I wasn't comparing them as players... Try reading what I've written.

In fact my original post almost directly serves as a answer to yours. Greene's 'indiscretions' should serve as no basis as to whether he gets a free kick or not, just as Joel's achievements and/or reputation should not influence his... In reality they clearly do which is the whole problem.

No one could ever question Selwood's attack on the pill, but his flopping/ducking in undeniable to anyone but those who have a dog in the fight of sticking up for him. I used those two as a comparison because it's stark that what Joel gets frees for, Toby does not. In reality, the free kick middle ground should land somewhere in between, Joel should get less and Toby should get more. Ducking and incurring high contact should not be rewarded where possible and obvious.
 

Grrr

Norm Smith Medallist
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Umpires always have discriminated. Geoff Raines B & F in a Premiership year, Brownlow favourite, 0 votes. That is just not possible without bias. And Raines was a very fair player, must have had a good mouth on him.
 

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Adelaide Hawk

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Every team has players who don't seem to get a great deal from umpires, and every team has players who are well looked after by umpires. That has been going on since the beginning, and will never change.
 

Simon_Nesbit

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He's only the latest in a long line that have suffered unfortunately. We look for patterns in life, and it's an "easy" story.

I think a big part is the way the umpires are coaches/prepared for the game. Old news now, but they showed the "pre-game" footage a number of years back - Geelong vs Hawks (hence why I was watching) when both were in premiership modes..

The umpire coach actually called out specific players - "watch Selwood, the Hawks will be looking to rough him up in the contest. Watch for Ablett being held around the ground. Keep an eye on Guerra and Stevie J, Guerra will niggle him off the ball all day, don't want to let that escalate. The Hawks rucks are going to wrestle and try to stop Ottens getting his arms free. It's going to be a hard physical game, so watch for heavy tackles" It was read like a shopping list.

You can't really argue with any of those comments - they are all things that happen in games (for players on all teams for that matter) - but by drawing attention to specific players (especially one way as this briefing was) it just makes the umpires go into the game looking for players and actions - creating an inherent bias in what they see rather than just calling the action as it unfolds.

Prior to that I genuinely thought umpires were unable to separate their bias (and they all hated Hawthorn!). After that I began to realise that a large part is the psychology - they cannot possible see everything, so their brain is filling in the gaps. If subconsciously they are fed those facts immediately before running out for the game, they are going to see those things more often.
 

Grrr

Norm Smith Medallist
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Except that I wasn't comparing them as players... Try reading what I've written.

In fact my original post almost directly serves as a answer to yours. Greene's 'indiscretions' should serve as no basis as to whether he gets a free kick or not, just as Joel's achievements and/or reputation should not influence his... In reality they clearly do which is the whole problem.

No one could ever question Selwood's attack on the pill, but his flopping/ducking in undeniable to anyone but those who have a dog in the fight of sticking up for him. I used those two as a comparison because it's stark that what Joel gets frees for, Toby does not. In reality, the free kick middle ground should land somewhere in between, Joel should get less and Toby should get more. Ducking and incurring high contact should not be rewarded where possible and obvious.
Of course I know you weren't comparing them as players. Selwood was admired by just about everyone in football until he started ducking. Greene has irked most everyone with his wide range of indiscretions since he started.

Selwood brought on peoples ire with his one indiscretion, lifting an arm to get the free. It took a rule change, or perhaps tightened up on an existing law to stop the umps awarding free's to Selwood that at the time were there. And he wasn't on his own although he was the master of it. Selwood seldom gets those free's anymore.

It might take a while for the umps and the footy public to treat Greene with the fairness that they should, perhaps unfair but he has brought much of it on himself.
 

GCB85

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Every team has players who don't seem to get a great deal from umpires, and every team has players who are well looked after by umpires. That has been going on since the beginning, and will never change.
Agreed. Should have been stopped long ago but continues year after year. As much as he was a hot head, have a look back at the game where Hall belted Staker. If that was most other forwards in the league, Hall would have had about 5-6 frees for holding / prohibited contact off the ball paid to him before it got to that point. Instead, they let it go and Hall lost his sh*t.
 

flyinghi64

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Yep I couldn't believe, well actually I could, how bad it was.
By the looks of things he will never get a high free kick or paid for a good tackle the way things are.

To say Umpires are neutral and pay what they see is a complete lie and falsehood. Not just Toby but in general the umpiring has been inept to say the least lately.
 

Snarls Barkley

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No doubt he should have got a free for that high tackle from Maynard but I think the perception that he is unfairly dealt with by umpires and the MRP to be overblown. It was a really poorly umpired match on Friday (and throughout the weekend), no one bats an eyelid when other players get an unfavourable decision but it’s bias that Greene doesn’t get one because they want to believe he is unfairly treated against for his past bad behaviour. Same with the MRP where they think he cops a raw deal when he has a pretty decent history on getting favourable results there.

He averages 1.33 free kicks per game which is at the higher level. Nowhere near the top rankers in Selwood (2.61!), Cripps (1.99), Murphy (1.81) and Dangerfield (1.75) but at the same level or higher than most of the other top players. Ablett (1.33), Pendlebury (1.31), Fyfe (1.29), Franklin (1.28), Bontempelli (1.26), Neale (1.16), Oliver (1.05), Martin (0.92), Coniglio (0.8). Only Ward has been given more free kicks for GWS. I think we’re searching for something that’s not there.
 

Simon_Nesbit

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Yep I couldn't believe, well actually I could, how bad it was.
By the looks of things he will never get a high free kick or paid for a good tackle the way things are.

To say Umpires are neutral and pay what they see is a complete lie and falsehood. Not just Toby but in general the umpiring has been inept to say the least lately.
I'd say almost without question the umpires "pay what they see". Otherwise you are accusing them of cheating....and outside the heat of the moment I don't even think that of the umpiring Hawthorn copped, and I'm the biggest umpire whinger there is!

The problem starts (and finishes) is when the umpires are LOOKING for something.

They cannot possibly see (let alone call) every one of the 1000s of infringements each game, so their starting point is already looking at the "worst" infringements. (Hence diving/staging/appealing for frees becomes an issue).

They are coached to look out for certain players - both to protect, and to control. Toby is firmly in the "control" group.

I'm actually curious how he will be umpired against Hawthorn next week. The unstoppable force vs the immovable object = a fair go for Toby?
 

HairyO

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I get that some people don't like Toby Greene. Apparently the umpires don't like him either.

It has gotten to the stage where he is being umpired with different rules to the other 43 players in the match.

He can't buy a free kick for a high tackle, yet if he knocks a player over in a fair contest, the whistle is blown against him.

We saw this on several occasions tonight alone.

Has it gone too far? Will the umpires ever forgive Toby for whatever it is he did to them? Should GWS put in a formal complaint?
Its no surprise that some players get treated harshly (Greene and Sicily are the obvious 2) and some players get ridiculously soft treatment (Goldstein one of many).
 

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Snarls Barkley

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Its no surprise that some players get treated harshly (Greene and Sicily are the obvious 2) and some players get ridiculously soft treatment (Goldstein one of many).
Another imaginary bias. In 42 games since the start of 2018, he has got 69 frees and given away 46. Career total 116 for, 86 against. They're doing an awful job of treating him harshly.
 

Snarls Barkley

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Yes, raw numbers with zero context tell everything.
Not everything but they tell a fair part of the story, especially when your argument is Sicily should get more free kicks and give away less.
 
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Juddy88

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Its no surprise that some players get treated harshly (Greene and Sicily are the obvious 2) and some players get ridiculously soft treatment (Goldstein one of many).
That reminds me, I lost count how many times he got a free in what appeared a normal ruck duel on the weekend. 5+? But hey, I could've been missing something.
 

HairyO

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That reminds me, I lost count how many times he got a free in what appeared a normal ruck duel on the weekend. 5+? But hey, I could've been missing something.
He got 6 free kicks. He got them for being blocked, and when he blocked Ceglar he got them because Ceglar would try to push past him to get the ball. He got them for being wrestled when he was wrestling. And he got them for honestly I dont know and I bet the umpire doesnt either.

17 for, 2 against this year. Thats a huge number of clearances.
 

sprockets

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Umpires always have discriminated. Geoff Raines B & F in a Premiership year, Brownlow favourite, 0 votes. That is just not possible without bias. And Raines was a very fair player, must have had a good mouth on him.
I did see Raines whack someone big time behind play at Waverley (I think) once. He could dish it out but wasn't dirty by the standards of the day. As for Greene, it's only natural that someone with his style doesn't get the rub of the green from umps. If there's a 50/50 they're entitled to pay or not pay frees as they like and if someone's 'unfair' they'll usually choose the latter. I don't have a problem with it.
 

Simon_Nesbit

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I'd say almost without question the umpires "pay what they see". Otherwise you are accusing them of cheating....and outside the heat of the moment I don't even think that of the umpiring Hawthorn copped, and I'm the biggest umpire whinger there is!

The problem starts (and finishes) is when the umpires are LOOKING for something.

They cannot possibly see (let alone call) every one of the 1000s of infringements each game, so their starting point is already looking at the "worst" infringements. (Hence diving/staging/appealing for frees becomes an issue).

They are coached to look out for certain players - both to protect, and to control. Toby is firmly in the "control" group.

I'm actually curious how he will be umpired against Hawthorn next week. The unstoppable force vs the immovable object = a fair go for Toby?
26-12 free kicks (10-1 HTB), and 3-0 for Greene answers that question now.

Umps were clearly looking for opportunities tonight.
 

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