Analysis Umpires

Blue__Balls

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3X the differential is ridiculous and not explained adequately by the difficulty of achieving consistency when you have 3 umpires each with their own level(s) of competency and consistency in each game to consider as the main reason why the game lacks consistency.

3X differential implies incompetency on top of lack of consistency - it is the only point I am making and really the only point that needs to be made regarding the officiating in that game - it was very lopsided - even 2X differential is absurd.
Why?

Statistically, it's improbable, and the idea that we only had one free kick awarded to us in the second half rings some alarm bells for sure, but there's no rule that says both sides need to have an equitable number of free kicks.

If one side is tackling better, disposing of the ball in tackles better, being more disciplined in defense, being more proactive in attack etc. than their opponents, why is them getting an extra 4 free kicks per quarter a sure symptom of incompetent umpiring?

You want to prove your point - watch the game and count every time we should have received a free kick, then do the same for Collingwood. Take the Carlton Supporter hat off and assess it consistently for both sides. If you're not prepared to do that, then this "The Umpires were incompetent because the differential between Team A and team B was X" presents as nothing more than a shallow attempt to blame our loss on someone other than ourselves.
 

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MEB_

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I know I get a lot of eye rolls when I talk about rugby on here, but I feel like their ref system generally works. Conversations are had with the Captain who then passes on the messages to the team, and they have a lot more respect for the ref in general (even if 'sir' is sometimes said with tongue firmly in cheek). They can go back phases on the video if needed to determine what is worthy of a penalty and to see if a try should stand. They can see to a mm on that video whether or not the ball made it across the line...no two pixel goal camera :rolleyes:
 

thylacine60

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sounds like that all takes a bit of time - our game is quicker and anything that slows it tends to get frowned at rightly or wrongly.....
 

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sounds like that all takes a bit of time - our game is quicker and anything that slows it tends to get frowned at rightly or wrongly.....
it does. But what is more important? A quick game with many incorrect decisions or a slower game with mostly correct decisions? I don't even know, I just want to be bloody entertained.
 

Blue__Balls

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it does. But what is more important? A quick game with many incorrect decisions or a slower game with mostly correct decisions? I don't even know, I just want to be bloody entertained.
I'll take the quick game with some missed calls, thanks. Don't need regular 2 minutes interruptions during general play while we consult the tape to see if a ball was out of bounds or not.

All that needs to happen is that the umpires need to be instructed to call what they see, and not make guesses or assumptions. The one that springs to mind was from earlier this season when Cunners got done for dropping the ball, despite getting a kick away, by an umpire directly behind him with no visibility on whether the ball made contact with his leg/boot. I'd prefer non-calls to wrong calls.
 

Opine

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The literal 3 to 1 differential doesn't concern me. I haven't bothered to check those stats, having learned of the differential in here; that despite watching the game twice. For mine, what bothered me was instances of contrasting application of same rule in like circumstances by different umpires. I can accept either practical or technical umpiring of the same rule in the same game; but not both.
 

JustaBattler

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Why?

Statistically, it's improbable, and the idea that we only had one free kick awarded to us in the second half rings some alarm bells for sure, but there's no rule that says both sides need to have an equitable number of free kicks.

If one side is tackling better, disposing of the ball in tackles better, being more disciplined in defense, being more proactive in attack etc. than their opponents, why is them getting an extra 4 free kicks per quarter a sure symptom of incompetent umpiring?

You want to prove your point - watch the game and count every time we should have received a free kick, then do the same for Collingwood. Take the Carlton Supporter hat off and assess it consistently for both sides. If you're not prepared to do that, then this "The Umpires were incompetent because the differential between Team A and team B was X" presents as nothing more than a shallow attempt to blame our loss on someone other than ourselves.
I've never suggested teams should have the same number of frees I've never suggested that any differential is unwelcome or unfair - what i am pointing out is that a 3X differential is really really wrong....

I also note that the umpire apologists for this game - have not even tried to explain a 3X discrepancy in frees awarded ....
the 3X difference is just ridiculous..
 

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JustaBattler

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The literal 3 to 1 differential doesn't concern me. I haven't bothered to check those stats, having learned of the differential in here; that despite watching the game twice. For mine, what bothered me was instances of contrasting application of same rule in like circumstances by different umpires. I can accept either practical or technical umpiring of the same rule in the same game; but not both.
well I 'understand' lack of consistency as being a part of every game of AFL - because there are three umpires officiating not one. However how three umpires manage to hand out (almost) 3X free differential whilst at teh same time missing some glaring and obvious frees to carlton which did impact significantly on the outcome of the game - is ....NQR
 

JustaBattler

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wouldn't you reckon if there were dodgy or incompetent umps out there they'd be making an effort to even the numbers up?
It is a a clever debating ploy to ask all the questions - how about you explain how you account for the performance of the umps specifically in reference to the Collingwood game - like I said there are good reasons why umpiring AFL will always be difficult- but the free differential can do with some explanation from those who like to argue that umpiring is never to blame for any result...it may be true generally speaking but was certainly not true in the game against Collingwood.
 

Opine

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well I 'understand' lack of consistency as being a part of every game of AFL - because there are three umpires officiating not one. However how three umpires manage to hand out (almost) 3X free differential whilst at teh same time missing some glaring and obvious frees to carlton which did impact significantly on the outcome of the game - is ....NQR
Only way to objectively answer that Q, is to conduct a review of the game with that specific Q in mind; noting the specific umpire involved in each free given or potential free missed, positioning, circumstances of the play, crowd reaction etc. Then review to establish whether some pattern emerges. If someone in here has the time, it might end being be a worthwhile exercise.
 

JustaBattler

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Only way to objectively answer that Q, is to conduct a review of the game with that specific Q in mind; noting the specific umpire involved in each free given or potential free missed, positioning, circumstances of the play, crowd reaction etc. Then review to establish whether some pattern emerges. If someone in here has the time, it might end being be a worthwhile exercise.
Sure - same applies perhaps to all those who feel inclined to believe that an (almost) 3X free kick differential is perfectly understandable and could in fact have been worse...
 

thylacine60

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you'd want me in your corner if you ever got in trouble with some smarty pants ...


now how about you have a go at explaining the inexplicable?
er, how many times must you be advised? there are no answers to this so any attempt at explaining it is pointless - how's that for a clever balk?
 

Blue__Balls

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I've never suggested teams should have the same number of frees I've never suggested that any differential is unwelcome or unfair - what i am pointing out is that a 3X differential is really really wrong....

I also note that the umpire apologists for this game - have not even tried to explain a 3X discrepancy in frees awarded ....
the 3X difference is just ridiculous..
You're not doing a great job of it though, because you're yet to address the main point I'm trying to convey - why is a 3:1 differential so vast as to be purely the fault of the umpires?

I agree that a 3:1 ratio of frees, at face value, is alarming. I'm curious as to how you've arrived at the conclusion that it's because the umpires were incompetent, without putting the time into determining whether or not Collingwood actually earned ~3x as many free kicks as we did. I understand that some were missed that could have been paid our way. But I'm also asserting that if one wants to pick out those examples, that one should do the same for the other team to determine what the "correct" number of free kicks for each side should have been.

You keep claiming that three times as many free kicks constitutes incompetency from the umpires. I cannot fathom how you can back that up without leaving the emotional overtures at the door and conducting a thorough review of all free kicks that "should" have been paid for each side. If you're not willing to do that, then I can't see any way you can reasonably claim that we were hard done by.
 

JustaBattler

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You're not doing a great job of it though, because you're yet to address the main point I'm trying to convey - why is a 3:1 differential so vast as to be purely the fault of the umpires?

I agree that a 3:1 ratio of frees, at face value, is alarming. I'm curious as to how you've arrived at the conclusion that it's because the umpires were incompetent, without putting the time into determining whether or not Collingwood actually earned ~3x as many free kicks as we did. I understand that some were missed that could have been paid our way. But I'm also asserting that if one wants to pick out those examples, that one should do the same for the other team to determine what the "correct" number of free kicks for each side should have been.

You keep claiming that three times as many free kicks constitutes incompetency from the umpires. I cannot fathom how you can back that up without leaving the emotional overtures at the door and conducting a thorough review of all free kicks that "should" have been paid for each side. If you're not willing to do that, then I can't see any way you can reasonably claim that we were hard done by.
I cant recall ANY game ever played with such a differential - use whatever word you like instead of 'incompetent'.
 

JustaBattler

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er, how many times must you be advised? there are no answers to this so any attempt at explaining it is pointless - how's that for a clever balk?
I'm responding to people suggesting it is my job to go through each and every free kick to Collingwood to show that they weren't there- whereas you and other posters seem to conveniently ignore all the free kicks NOT paid to Carlton that were there as if they are irrelevant considerations to teh outcome of the game - well in the context of the free kick differential - they certainly weren't.

and I can't swallow a 3X differential as being acceptable - it isn't - it was a one sided pathetic performance by the umpires.
 

thylacine60

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I'm responding to people suggesting it is my job to go through each and every free kick to Collingwood to show that they weren't there- whereas you and other posters seem to conveniently ignore all the free kicks NOT paid to Carlton that were there as if they are irrelevant considerations to teh outcome of the game - well in the context of the free kick differential - they certainly weren't.

and I can't swallow a 3X differential as being acceptable - it isn't - it was a one sided pathetic performance by the umpires.
stop drinking - or guessing - or presuming - I never suggested any such thing
 
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