Analysis Umpires

[Arr0w]

That doesn't matter though from the point of view of it being a philosophical argument.

Umpires can be biased and umpires can have an influence on the result of a game....In football, In cricket, In soccer etc etc

Even if let's say it never, ever, ever, ever, ever happened to date, the point is that it could. Correct?

Firstly really interested in the biase comment what sort of biase do you speak of here?

Secondly no game will EVER be won or lost by 1 or 2 incorrect decisions

Players, a side, have 110 minutes to eliminate any bad decision that could occur in the last 10 minutes

 

[HARKER]

Firstly really interested in the biase comment what sort of biase do you speak of here?
Secondly no game will EVER be won or lost by 1 or 2 incorrect decisions
Players, a side, have 110 minutes to eliminate any bad decision that could occur in the last 10 minutes

I can only put my case forward as much as you can put yours forward.

Re bias comment: An umpire can have a bias for several reasons;
a. He/She may not like a player. b. He/She may not like a team. c. He/She may have money on a team d. He/She may have been asked to adjudicate in a particular manner, that favours a team. That's off the top of mu head.

Re. outcome - My original post on this matter says what I wanted to say.

 

[slashin_velvet]

That doesn't matter though from the point of view of it being a philosophical argument.

Umpires can be biased and umpires can have an influence on the result of a game....In football, In cricket, In soccer etc etc

Even if let's say it never, ever, ever, ever, ever happened to date, the point is that it could. Correct?

But also, an internal/unconscious bias is not one that is outwardly obvious, so impossible to prove existence. If it were obvious, it would no longer be an internal/unconscious bias

 

[billybloggs]

I think if I was to become an umpire, no team would ever beat the old dark navy blues even if we put out auskickers in our jumpers. Yep I would make a horrible umpire but I would be an honest one. I would never discriminate against any team as I hate any team that plays against the Blues. And I do sleep at night.

 

[Arr0w]

I can only put my case forward as much as you can put yours forward.

Re bias comment: An umpire can have a bias for several reasons;
a. He/She may not like a player. b. He/She may not like a team. c. He/She may have money on a team d. He/She may have been asked to adjudicate in a particular manner, that favours a team. That's off the top of mu head.

Re. outcome - My original post on this matter says what I wanted to say.

Okay, so you are also saying, like some others, that an umpire could be corrupt, yet there has never been any evidence to suggest this has happen, to my knowledge

Second point, not one example of an umpire's decision having decided a game

Conspiracy theories at work again ?

 

[Bluechip66]

Okay, so you are also saying, like some others, that an umpire could be corrupt, yet there has never been any evidence to suggest this has happen, to my knowledge

Second point, not one example of an umpire's decision having decided a game

Conspiracy theories at work again ?

No, but...I was at a pre GF lunch, some years ago, where one of the guest speakers was ex ump, Russo , declared he didn’t give Diesel votes (44 touches) because he was a constant ump abuser. I gave him both barrels leaving the place in stitches. Nothing malicious, I bought him a beer, but he stands by what he did.

I know not quite the same as giving or not giving free kicks, but shows they are human & subconsciously can make decisions based on feelings rather than rules.

 

[Arr0w]

No, but...I was at a pre GF lunch, some years ago, where one of the guest speakers was ex ump, Russo , declared he didn’t give Diesel votes (44 touches) because he was a constant ump abuser. I gave him both barrels leaving the place in stitches. Nothing malicious, I bought him a beer, but he stands by what he did.

I know not quite the same as giving or not giving free kicks, but shows they are human & subconsciously can make decisions based on feelings rather than rules.

I am sure there could be a bit of that and at times a star player might get awarded a 50/50 free against a lesser player, but nothing that would come close to a umpire having affected the result in a game

 

[Stamos]

I am sure there could be a bit of that and at times a star player might get awarded a 50/50 free against a lesser player, but nothing that would come close to a umpire having affected the result in a game

Video Request: The day Fitzroy were robbed.

Over the years I've seen many horrible displays of umpiring (too many this year, I'll leave that for the Brisbane board :mad:) but everytime it comes up in conversation, my old man compares it to the game against Adelaide in the early 90's where the game was practically stripped from us. I...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[No1Suspect]

Okay, so you are also saying, like some others, that an umpire could be corrupt, yet there has never been any evidence to suggest this has happen, to my knowledge

Second point, not one example of an umpire's decision having decided a game

Conspiracy theories at work again ?

Leigh Fisher paid something like 13 to 0 free kicks when he umpired us against stkilda. While he may not be corrput id say theres something in that despite being a once off

 

[Navy Blue Blood]

Give me an example of both points

Then we can discuss the latter

Forensic proof, as with anything related to the human psyche, is almost impossible. However I believe it has been reasonably well established that Greg Williams lost a Brownlow through an umpires personal bias.

It is not hard to extrapolate that through to bias in decision making within a match as well.

 

[DangerousD]

The ball being held and controlled by a player. Same as how you determine a mark.

Our problem at present is that players are content to take on the tackler, and this creates a grey area in that if you don't have the arms pinned players can flick the ball out and get away with the handpass. The grey area around prior opportunity is what has taken the game from a skill game into a slog, as coaches want progressively bigger and bigger bodies around the ball instead of neat players who are good with the ball in hand.

If it helps, the tackle still needs to be made correctly. In the back, head high and tripping are still things that need to be watched out for.

Would players actually go in and get the ball in traffic? Or would they pull up and wait? Is that rewarding or penalising the player attacking the footy?

These interpretations would be ok if there were 8-12 people camped in the 50m arc a mile away, rather than 25 people around a ball up. Having no prior would encourage horrible play. Surely there is just a better balance to be found.

 

[Arr0w]

Video Request: The day Fitzroy were robbed.

Over the years I've seen many horrible displays of umpiring (too many this year, I'll leave that for the Brisbane board :mad:) but everytime it comes up in conversation, my old man compares it to the game against Adelaide in the early 90's where the game was practically stripped from us. I...

www.bigfooty.com

?

 

[Stamos]

?

A clear example of the umpires affecting the result of a game.

 

[DangerousD]

Umpire didn't cause Eddie to take off too early, umpire didn't cause Tigers player hitting up Townsend

Don't fix, prevent

Yes true, but without one, you probably don’t get the other, they make mistakes just like the players, their mistakes, just like the players, have consequences. A poor/incorrect decision in the dying seconds of a game, can directly change the outcome. The only difference with poor decisions earlier in games is, you have more time to rectify/respond.

 

[DangerousD]

Pretty simple give me examples of when both point 1 0r 2 have happened?

I feel like I see examples of number 1 all the time, big name players getting much more leniency in regards to 50/50 decisions. Toby Greene last week was penalised very harshly with The Giants bringing up with the AFL.

Humans have bias, not sure how you are arguing against this point

 

[Gethelred]

Would players actually go in and get the ball in traffic? Or would they pull up and wait? Is that rewarding or penalising the player attacking the footy?

These interpretations would be ok if there were 8-12 people camped in the 50m arc a mile away, rather than 25 people around a ball up. Having no prior would encourage horrible play. Surely there is just a better balance to be found.

Players would learn to do what they used to do when they were hot, try to tap the ball to advantage. People seem to forget, the idea is to want to take possession when you are clear, with the play set up to allow you to do so; your side blocking, sheparding, running to provide an option in space.

This modern notion of 25 people camped around the ball breaks down when one side begins to use their numbers to play in close keepings off with clever taps and blocks, but in the end they need someone to kick to further afield.

 

[Wickzki]

?

The day Fitzroy were absolutely screwed by the umpires.

As plain as day that that game was rigged.



Bill Deller, umpire's advisor, comment said almost with a laugh. Likewise the umpire.

 

[thylacine60]

completely disagree.... tonight was disgusting. Blatant cheating... yes they paid us frees as well ones that were blatantly obvious.... we rarely get the rub of the green, we more often than not get crucified for ticky touch wood free kicks more than our opposition ...

I’ve got 21 years going to the footy week In and out and I can tell you now there is more than something in it... it comes from the top and it’s systemic against us.... we got penalised the most for the salary cap when others who were doing it got off lightly... fair dinkum Essendon got less for doing drugs! If that doesn’t tell you something.... tonight was a disgrace... was watching it with a mate who understands footy but no solid affiliation with any team...he was shocked.... we spent fifteen minutes in the second looking at frees not paid to us but paid to the saints for the same thing and I was calling it before it happened.... every time. He was too once I pointed it out. They changed momentum and the flow of the game in every instance. They cheated last week and told Betts it was a new rule and it nearly cost us the game.... conspiracy?

I’ll tell you the real truth .... no one likes us, they never have, go and read the comments section on the sun or any mass media publication on a bad news story about Carlton... more comments than any other article in the paper... every time. Everyone having a crack at Carlton... like that rich bloke that no one liked thats lost all his money and everyone’s loving it ...Go and do it test it for yourself. You think umpires don’t have this subconscious bias from their younger days? They forget? I said it in the game thread and it got lost.... they hate us it’s deep seated, we are the “multicultural“ successful club that’s fallen from its perch and they all want us to stay there... including head office cos it sells papers ... controversial I know but it’s the truth.

the only thing more controversial than your post are the rumours of thursday night's umpiring group seen later that evening at crown shouting the bar with cries of "that will show that successful multi-cultural club, ha ha!!".......if these rumours are true we really have a deep-seated corruption issue on our hands...

 

[thylacine60]

It’s no coincidence, that free kicks evened out or more importantly, where paid to us in the second half, when the game was lost, and yet where missed when the game was alive.

then what is it?

 

[thylacine60]

I genuinely don’t know if we will ever get to a point where it feels like the umpires are adjudicating our games fairly. We’re getting consistently screwed over. Someone tell the league that the salary cap breaches were 17 years ago, time to officiate our games fairly.

how do you explain the fact that EVERY club's bleating supporters are saying the same thing? from the lowliest "we are getting screwed cause only winners get the rub of the green" to free-kick hawthorn, the umpire's former darling? - surely we can't ALL be getting screwed over in a conspiracy by the umpires? what would be the point of that?

 

[thylacine60]

The umps had clearly been told at half time to look for infringements against Cripps, he got absolutely nothing in the first half despite being scragged at every stoppage. This changed in the 3rd quarter he got 2 or 3 'softish' kicks early and its no co-incidence he then was able to work his way into the game.

It was not the reason we lost the game, we were out played by a slicker, hungrier side that was well coached however the 50/50 calls they got in the first half where nothing seem to come to us was astonishing. The 50m against Harry OMG

um, told by who? does the senior ump have an earpiece in listening to gil's instruction's? who told the umpires?

 

[thylacine60]

Worst umpiring I have seen so far this year.
I knew this would happen after Clarko said his piece.

“Rule of the week” Eddie everywhere described it as...

If we were first to the ball the decisions would have been for us not against us


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

so, what's your complaint?

 

[thylacine60]

My take is that the AFL with their tinkering have ruined the game. They have made the game so hard to umpire. Rather than reward the player prepared to go for the ball it is now all about the tackler, thereby making it so hard to decide an outcome. I lost count as to how many times a player with the ball was tackled, monstered in the back and then a ball up. Pay the free kick and watch the game open up. Yes, there were some howlers last night and the holding free kicks off the ball are a blight on the game. This should be policed more. If in a contest a player has his back to the ball blocking another player, there are two other umpires on the ground to police that.

bang!

 

[thylacine60]

It is a fast and complicated game these days. Try explaining modern footy to someome new to the game.
If I watch games and support other teams (for example if a mate supports another team and your with them), I dont see the consistent inconsistencies that carlton seem to endure. And it will be all season.
It is not just that, it is player reports as well. The carnage inflicted upon our blokes injury wise and not even receiving frees.
The only other team anything like Ive seen with Carltons rough end of the stick would be the NFL Raiders.
There is a similar push for NFL refs to be fulltime as well.
Im not sure if thats the answer but there needs to be a standards group.
The only way to objectively see if there is a bias in the AFL would be to analyse ever free over the season for and against to make a quantifiable judgement.
Going back to the NFL, whatever Belicheck (patriots)has done in this area would be worth looking into.

do you follow these ........raiders?

 

[thylacine60]

The problem is that its very hard to make the rules black and white, and they must be subject to interpretation.

can I get this on a t-shirt?