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Analysis Umpires

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Sector 7G said:
The classic example of the mess with the rules was after everyone had finally accepted that hands in the back no matter how minor the contact was a free, SHocking goes and changes it to be forcefully contact whatever that is and makes it a lucky dip on whether the free is paid.

Once upon a time a handball was very distinct from a throw. Now it is impossible to determine which is which. Because you couldn't throw it around corners you had to kick rather than try to chain it out with dodgy handballs
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thylacine60 said:
a handball over your own head was always considered a throw - now you can just bobble the ball on your fingers and nudge it with the knuckle of your other hand in any direction and it's considered correct disposal - the continual erosion of the basic rules should alert the umpire trashers that the game is un-umpirable in its current manifestation and will only drift further into something the world will come to know as confuseball..........
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Sector 7G said:
2016 was pretty much the year they just gave up on umpiring Handballs, between the Dogs flinging the ball over their head and Oliver throwing it across a the back of his hand in his first year.
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A couple of throws in this...
 
gbatman said:
Bias. We've heard enough about umpire 22 on here. So it needs to be identified, if an umpire is seen as bias, and they are only human, it will happen, then make sure they don't umpire those teams where they have shown bias.
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*Leigh Fisher exits the chat...

In regards to #22, I know it feels like he's biased when he does our games, but I've seen plenty of opposition supporters complain about him too, saying that he always makes calls against them. I'm getting the feeling that he's just not very good. Perhaps the speed of the game is too much for him, or his positioning is bad? I don't know, but it doesn't seem to be isolated to us.
 

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gbatman said:
Why on earth should a handball over your head be deemed as a throw! Makes no sense, if you punch it from your hand it's a handball regardless of fashion.
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It shouldn't if you punch it, but the reality is that all the propulsion for the over over the head handball comes from the supporting hand, with the punching fist just touching the ball. Maybe I am just an old man howling at the moon but that is not a handball it is a throw.

We could just get rid of handball all together and just let players thrown the ball ( we are just about there) but then it makes it impossible to judge a dropping the ball free.
 
ajb72 said:
this, but needs to be expanded into other aspects of life. No needs for names, work colleagues should be known as their work ids. Hey 264316 have you done that task yet?
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Perfect.
 
Sector 7G said:
It shouldn't if you punch it, but the reality is that all the propulsion for the over over the head handball comes from the supporting hand, with the punching fist just touching the ball. Maybe I am just an old man howling at the moon but that is not a handball it is a throw.

We could just get rid of handball all together and just let players thrown the ball ( we are just about there) but then it makes it impossible to judge a dropping the ball free.
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That's just stifling creativity and showmanship. As long you have the ball in one hand and get a fist to it with the other, I couldn't care where any extra inertia comes from. Not much different to when a player gets swung in a tackle and gets a handball away. Most of the force from that comes from the swing. As long as it's a fist to the ball, while the ball is in the other hand, that's all good in my eyes.
Obviously different if the ball comes out of your supporting hand before you get your fist to it, or you miss the ball with your fist completely.
I want to see a bit of showtime and flash from the good players.
 
gbatman said:
Why on earth should a handball over your head be deemed as a throw! Makes no sense, if you punch it from your hand it's a handball regardless of fashion.
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because it's impossible to do without both hands moving together..........
 
Sector 7G said:
It shouldn't if you punch it, but the reality is that all the propulsion for the over over the head handball comes from the supporting hand, with the punching fist just touching the ball. Maybe I am just an old man howling at the moon but that is not a handball it is a throw.

We could just get rid of handball all together and just let players thrown the ball ( we are just about there) but then it makes it impossible to judge a dropping the ball free.
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bang! howl away comrade............
 
Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods said:
That's just stifling creativity and showmanship. As long you have the ball in one hand and get a fist to it with the other, I couldn't care where any extra inertia comes from. Not much different to when a player gets swung in a tackle and gets a handball away. Most of the force from that comes from the swing. As long as it's a fist to the ball, while the ball is in the other hand, that's all good in my eyes.
Obviously different if the ball comes out of your supporting hand before you get your fist to it, or you miss the ball with your fist completely.
I want to see a bit of showtime and flash from the good players.
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Guess I just like to see the skill of the game properly executed.
 
Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods said:
That's just stifling creativity and showmanship. As long you have the ball in one hand and get a fist to it with the other, I couldn't care where any extra inertia comes from. Not much different to when a player gets swung in a tackle and gets a handball away. Most of the force from that comes from the swing. As long as it's a fist to the ball, while the ball is in the other hand, that's all good in my eyes.
Obviously different if the ball comes out of your supporting hand before you get your fist to it, or you miss the ball with your fist completely.
I want to see a bit of showtime and flash from the good players.
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stifling creativity and showmanship? we're seeing blokes standing in packs with the ball bobbling on the fingertips of one hand who then tap at it with the knuckle of the other hand - play on? where does that end?
 

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As I've said before. The handball thing should be one of the easier of our weird rules to adjudicate.

If the holding hand is moving in the same direction as the punching hand, it's a throw. The holding hand should either be stationery - relative to the punching hand - or moving in the opposite direction.

If both hands are moving in the same direction then it's impossible to discern whether the ball got its momentum from the punching hand or the holding hand, therefore pay the free - illegal disposal.

Just a reminder of one of the more egregious recent examples:
throw.gif
 
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OldBlueFan said:
As I've said before. The handball thing should be one of the easier of our weird rules to adjudicate.

If the holding hand is moving in the same direction as the punching hand, it's a throw. The holding hand should either be stationery - relative to the holding hand - or moving in the opposite direction.

If both hands are moving in the same direction then it's impossible to discern whether the ball got its momentum from the punching hand or the holding hand, therefore pay the free - illegal disposal.

Just a reminder of one of the more egregious recent examples:
View attachment 1441761
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yep yep yep - thus the handball over the head is impossible - it's a throw every day of the week........
 
thylacine60 said:
stifling creativity and showmanship? we're seeing blokes standing in packs with the ball bobbling on the fingertips of one hand who then tap at it with the knuckle of the other hand - play on? where does that end?
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Hopefully in a goal.
 

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Say what you will about the current handball rule, at least it's easy to adjudicate. If two hands touch the ball it's fine, if not it's not. Asking the umpire to assess momentum and relative motion etc for every handball would create a whole new grey area for people to complain about in this thread.
 
My Hat said:
Say what you will about the current handball rule, at least it's easy to adjudicate. If two hands touch the ball it's fine, if not it's not. Asking the umpire to assess momentum and relative motion etc for every handball would create a whole new grey area for people to complain about in this thread.
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So.......close enough is good enough? I've always said if they started paying anywhere near all the incorrect disposals, we'd no longer recognise the game. Not to mention how much it would slow things down. Yet how else do you try to claw back the rule? Just let the fluffy appendage wag the startled canine?
 
thylacine60 said:
So.......close enough is good enough? I've always said if they started paying anywhere near all the incorrect disposals, we'd no longer recognise the game. Not to mention how much it would slow things down. Yet how else do you try to claw back the rule? Just let the fluffy appendage wag the startled canine?
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Not sure how that follows from what I said? Paying incorrect disposals under the current rule and changing the definition of what an incorrect disposal is are two different things.

Right now the definition of a handball is 'the act of holding the football in one hand and disposing of it by hitting it with the clenched fist of the other hand'. Nothing there about whether the holding hand is in motion, whether it's above or below the player's head, where the majority of the ball's momentum comes from, etc. The clenched fist has to make contact with the ball in the act of disposal, that's it.

I'm not arguing against better enforcement of the existing rule. I'm just expressing caution about changing the rule.
 
I guess it depends what you think needs to be 'clawed back' and why, i.e. what problem we are trying to solve. Are too many players getting away with throws as defined under the current law? Are players playing largely within the law but nevertheless getting rid of the ball 'too easily' (whatever we mean by that)? Is there some sort of lost art of a correct handball that we think needs to come back? Do we think the evolution & creativity of players to get rid of the ball in different ways but still within the law is a bad thing, and if so, why? Is it about the look? What exactly are we trying to fix?

Personally I think the first of that list probably needs improvement, but that doesn't require a law change. I'm not too fussed about the rest of it. If a player wants to handball over their head then good luck to them. It's a low percentage play since you can't see who's there, so it'll often end up being a turnover anyway. And would the game really be improved if Levi's handball for Murph's goal was deemed illegal because of, what, 'momentum'? Colour me unconvinced.
 
thylacine60 said:
yep yep yep - thus the handball over the head is impossible - it's a throw every day of the week........
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Not necessarily. Hands can move at different speeds.

Say the left hand holding the ball goes above the head just fast enough the centrifugal force stops the ball falling out and the right hand moves to the ball at twice the speed, then the difference in speeds between the the hands is what will give the ball it's momentum.

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