Unions

[Snake_Baker]

The rate of real wage increase has tracked with levels of union participation amongst the workforce.

If you want to get paid more and live in a more egalitarian society, support unions and the workers movement.

Pretty simple, isn't it?

 

[bombersfan4000]

The rate of real wage increase has tracked with levels of union participation amongst the workforce.

If you want to get paid more and live in a more egalitarian society, support unions and the workers movement.

Having working in mining for th last 11 years in the coal in Qld and Iron ore in WA that is such a true statement!
The involvement of the unions offer far better protection for the worker as well as a far better cultural on site!

 

[Bombermania]

Pretty simple, isn't it?

If you ignore the changing nature of the labour market and technology, unions on their own cannot deliver higher wages, they need to base their existence on being more than that because wages growth is more complex than just having active unions.

 

[Scotland]

Having working in mining for th last 11 years in the coal in Qld and Iron ore in WA that is such a true statement!
The involvement of the unions offer far better protection for the worker as well as a far better cultural on site!

You don't reckon non-union workers have done OK in that industry in that period?

 

[twotooto]

Saying non-union workers have done ok is akin to saying, "I don't vaccinate and I do just fine". The reason the person who doesn't advocate for vaccinations doesn't get sick is because there's a critical mass of people that vaccinate, ensuring the nasties are kept away(nothing revelatory there).

In the same way, the decades preceding this one saw much higher union membership and thus influence and as a result, a host(that could be a bad pun) of good outcomes were enabled - things like safe work places, fair and equitable wages, grievance resolution channels etc. Non-unionists benefited as a result.

But, just like the vaccination situation, once a critical mass of non-union workers becomes a reality(arguably already the case) we'll see a lot of those hard fought for conditions get eroded away(also, arguably already the case) - the virus that is s**t pay and conditions etc will thrive and hold sway again.

 

[Bombermania]

Saying non-union workers have done ok is akin to saying, "I don't vaccinate and I do just fine". The reason the person who doesn't advocate for vaccinations doesn't get sick is because there's a critical mass of people that vaccinate, ensuring the nasties are kept away(nothing revelatory there).

In the same way, the decades preceding this one saw much higher union membership and thus influence and as a result, a host(that could be a bad pun) of good outcomes were enabled - things like safe work places, fair and equitable wages, grievance resolution channels etc.

But, just like the vaccination situation, once a critical mass of non-union workers becomes a reality(arguably already the case) we'll see a lot of those hard fought for conditions get eroded away(also, arguably already the case).

These achievements may please the unions remaining members however the inconsistent way that those issues have been managed has overtime hurt the unions as they have been seen has been selective in how they have responded to issues, if you surveyed the workers who have left the unions, you will often hear stories of cases where the union took no action which has lead to a lot of ill-will.

A classic example is the case I referred to earlier in which a workplace had a high staff turnover due to a series of issues yet the union rep just sat in the corner without making even the slightest effort to engage with workers.

Unions need to stop being lazy.

 

[bombersfan4000]

You don't reckon non-union workers have done OK in that industry in that period?

No as The work force has been made casual, loss of holidays, sick days and the mine dictates the rates of pay! Then users fear in to the employees. If the employee says anything back they are basically told not to come back and can be easily black listed. There is zero protection as the mines by lass enterprise agreements for casual contracts that are not worth thenink they are written on

 

[Bombermania]

No as The work force has been made casual, loss of holidays, sick days and the mine dictates the rates of pay! Then users fear in to the employees. If the employee says anything back they are basically told not to come back and can be easily black listed. There is zero protection as the mines by lass enterprise agreements for casual contracts that are not worth thenink they are written on

The number of casuals as a percentage of the overall labour market has been fairly stable over the past decade or so, however your comment highlights why the unions need to have reps that are more active, there is no law that stops a union rep from saying hello to other staff, there is no law stopping a union rep from asking how is the job going.

 

[bombersfan4000]

The number of casuals as a percentage of the overall labour market has been fairly stable over the past decade or so, however your comment highlights why the unions need to have reps that are more active, there is no law that stops a union rep from saying hello to other staff, there is no law stopping a union rep from asking how is the job going.

In mining it’s nearly all casual! Previously after a certain time usually 6 or 12 months the company has to put you on to their books, with full entitlements and benefits now they just keep you casual!

It’s rubbish when they claim it’s a struggling market as they show you the figures, revenue and expenditure of each site in the state of the nation meetings! They are pumping out billions

 

[Bombermania]

In mining it’s nearly all casual! Previously after a certain time usually 6 or 12 months the company has to put you on to their books, with full entitlements and benefits now they just keep you casual!

It’s rubbish when they claim it’s a struggling market as they show you the figures, revenue and expenditure of each site in the state of the nation meetings! They are pumping out billions

I can understand why mining would be casual as it is a short term job, once the dirt is dug and shipped out then it is gone, unlike most other jobs which have repeat business, this is part of the reason why it was shortsighted to lose the car manufacturing industry.

 

[bombersfan4000]

I can understand why mining would be casual as it is a short term job, once the dirt is dug and shipped out then it is gone, unlike most other jobs which have repeat business, this is part of the reason why it was shortsighted to lose the car manufacturing industry.

The maintenance site of things, has been busier than ever. The more product that gets shipped the more things break down on site. Export levels of nearly all minerals keep growing every year

 

[Scotland]

No as The work force has been made casual, loss of holidays, sick days and the mine dictates the rates of pay! Then users fear in to the employees. If the employee says anything back they are basically told not to come back and can be easily black listed. There is zero protection as the mines by lass enterprise agreements for casual contracts that are not worth thenink they are written on

I've got a mate who spent years at a big mine site in WA. They had 4 operating shifts, one of which was unionised, 3 of which were not. Have a guess which shift simultaneously had the most workers and was the least productive?

Unions did themselves no favours for a long time in mining and now they are a thing of the past in a lot of places. You reap what you sow sometimes.

Saying non-union workers have done ok is akin to saying, "I don't vaccinate and I do just fine". The reason the person who doesn't advocate for vaccinations doesn't get sick is because there's a critical mass of people that vaccinate, ensuring the nasties are kept away(nothing revelatory there).

Except that's a pretty terrible parallel. You vaccinate, you don't get polio. You don't vaccinate, you might if you are exposed. Regardless of whether 1% or 99% vaccinate, you do it for your own personal benefit. If the majority vaccinate you get herd immunity which is great, but if they don't then you're still better off vaccinating.

Union membership in the private sector is about 10% (http://www.afr.com/news/policy/indu...ts-new-lows-in-private-sector-20170502-gvxukh). Are 90% of private sector employees protected by the 10% critical mass? I don't think so.

In the same way, the decades preceding this one saw much higher union membership and thus influence and as a result, a host(that could be a bad pun) of good outcomes were enabled - things like safe work places, fair and equitable wages, grievance resolution channels etc. Non-unionists benefited as a result.

But, just like the vaccination situation, once a critical mass of non-union workers becomes a reality(arguably already the case) we'll see a lot of those hard fought for conditions get eroded away(also, arguably already the case) - the virus that is s**t pay and conditions etc will thrive and hold sway again.

Union membership has been on the decline for a long time. No one is denying the historical benefit to unions and the good work done in previous eras, but if they are so good and everything for workers will fall apart without them why are Australian workers turning their backs on them in greater and greater numbers each year?

 

[Bombermania]

Union membership has been on the decline for a long time. No one is denying the historical benefit to unions and the good work done in previous eras, but if they are so good and everything for workers will fall apart without them why are Australian workers turning their backs on them in greater and greater numbers each year?

Another way of looking at that, if Essendon or Carlton came out with a membership marketing campaign based on having won 16 premierships with clips from their last premiership years, sure fans of those clubs can be smug about their history however the two clubs would know that to live off 2000 or 1995 would just look silly.

 

[twotooto]

Well I butchered my multi quote reply to Scotland. Italics = Scott's post. Standard text = my reply.

Unions did themselves no favours for a long time in mining and now they are a thing of the past in a lot of places. You reap what you sow sometimes.

Except that's a pretty terrible parallel. You vaccinate, you don't get polio. You don't vaccinate, you might if you are exposed. Regardless of whether 1% or 99% vaccinate, you do it for your own personal benefit. If the majority vaccinate you get herd immunity which is great, but if they don't then you're still better off vaccinating.

Do you think so? I though it was pretty apt, myself.

Union membership in the private sector is about 10% (http://www.afr.com/news/policy/indu...ts-new-lows-in-private-sector-20170502-gvxukh). Are 90% of private sector employees protected by the 10% critical mass? I don't think so.

I was responding to your comment which specifically referenced "that industry", which I presumed to mean the mining industry. Granted, the mining industry(throw in oil & gas) is part of the private sector but to use statistics from the whole private sector is a little bit disingenuous, wouldn't you say? At the least, I think it's a pretty key distinction to make. Still, I'd acknowledge that union membership in 'that industry' has indeed declined quite a bit over the last decade or so. I think a lot of the private sector has never really had much of a union presence and I'd argue that that is the reason a lot of them have shithouse wages and conditions.

Union membership has been on the decline for a long time. No one is denying the historical benefit to unions and the good work done in previous eras, but if they are so good and everything for workers will fall apart without them why are Australian workers turning their backs on them in greater and greater numbers each year?

In the oil and gas, and mining industries, there has been a large shift towards a casualised work force. There's also been concerted and sustained efforts from policy makers to diminish and ultimately destroy the efficacy of unions. Unions have also, as yourself and other posters have mentioned, 'done themselves no favours' in the past - I accept that they've had a history of self-sabotage and that they could certainly lift their game.

There are many key union players that are stuck in the past, with unhealthy personal agendas and an unwillingness to move in to the 21st century. I think, along with the policy makers mentioned above, the media has also been co-opted into demonising unions which has contributed to a lot of the public having a negative perception of both unions and the O & G and mining industries and their respective employees.

All of those things contribute to why there are less and less people signing up in/to unions.

You said above that 'you reap what you sow sometimes' and 'no one is denying the historical benefit to unions and the good work done in previous eras'. I think that due to the previous 'sowing', the non-unionised have experienced some relatively good conditions up until this point. I don't see that going on forever. Maybe I'm wrong - wouldn't be the first time - but I think if we completely abolish unions and rely solely on the largesse of employers it won't end too well.

 

[bombersfan4000]

I've got a mate who spent years at a big mine site in WA. They had 4 operating shifts, one of which was unionised, 3 of which were not. Have a guess which shift simultaneously had the most workers and was the least productive?

Unions did themselves no favours for a long time in mining and now they are a thing of the past in a lot of places. You reap what you sow sometimes.



Except that's a pretty terrible parallel. You vaccinate, you don't get polio. You don't vaccinate, you might if you are exposed. Regardless of whether 1% or 99% vaccinate, you do it for your own personal benefit. If the majority vaccinate you get herd immunity which is great, but if they don't then you're still better off vaccinating.

Union membership in the private sector is about 10% (http://www.afr.com/news/policy/indu...ts-new-lows-in-private-sector-20170502-gvxukh). Are 90% of private sector employees protected by the 10% critical mass? I don't think so.



Union membership has been on the decline for a long time. No one is denying the historical benefit to unions and the good work done in previous eras, but if they are so good and everything for work?

I call BS to your first statement



Why is union so strong in government work place?
Union membership is on the decline in private simply due to the labour hire and recruitment! Join the union and the place of employment won’t have you back!

 

[Bombermania]

I call BS to your first statement



Why is union so strong in government work place?
Union membership is on the decline in private simply due to the labour hire and recruitment! Join the union and the place of employment won’t have you back!

A third of the public sector is hired via the government's recruitment panel and the public sector has a high level of union membership and the health system has a large percentage of agency staff, however the ANF is one of Australia's strongest unions, this goes to show that there is no real link between the use of temps and union membership.

 

[Scotland]

I call BS to your first statement

Call BS all you want.

Find me someone that hasn't worked with a ******* useless employee that is protected by the union and I'll show you a liar.

Why is union so strong in government work place?
Union membership is on the decline in private simply due to the labour hire and recruitment! Join the union and the place of employment won’t have you back!

This doesn't sound like much of an argument for joining a union.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

The number of casuals as a percentage of the overall labour market has been fairly stable over the past decade or so, however your comment highlights why the unions need to have reps that are more active, there is no law that stops a union rep from saying hello to other staff, there is no law stopping a union rep from asking how is the job going.

In the tertiary Ed sector casualisation has exploded.

 

[bombersfan4000]

Call BS all you want.

Find me someone that hasn't worked with a ******* useless employee that is protected by the union and I'll show you a liar.



This doesn't sound like much of an argument for joining a union.

joining a union as a casual employee is next to useless!

by the sounds of it you have NFI idea of the work force

 

[bombersfan4000]

A third of the public sector is hired via the government's recruitment panel and the public sector has a high level of union membership and the health system has a large percentage of agency staff, however the ANF is one of Australia's strongest unions, this goes to show that there is no real link between the use of temps and union membership.

not at government level its usualy temp to full time work!

the private sector is a different story!

 

[Scotland]

joining a union as a casual employee is next to useless!

by the sounds of it you have NFI idea of the work force

LOL. No I just work in 2018, not a coal mine in Yorkshire in the 1960s.

 

[Power Raid]

Conservatives have wet dreams about killing off the union movement, but it won't happen.

In fact, at some stage unions will become a powerful force again - ironically because of the policies pushed by the very same conservatives.

You can only screw the worker so much before substantial resistance occurs.

Unions have been weakened by losing there supporter base. Mostly due to people being better off without them and not wanting to be associated with boasting criminals.

They re-emerge if their lap dogs in parliament can recreate a class divide. This has started by stopping ordinary workers from negative gearing whilst allowing the wealthy, business owners and the beneficiaries of a rich daddies trust fund to continue as usual. Not to mention the attack on the tax thresholds.

Let’s see what their next attack on the poor and ordinary is.

 

[twotooto]

Unions have been weakened by losing there supporter base. Mostly due to people being better off without them and not wanting to be associated with boasting criminals.

They re-emerge if their lap dogs in parliament can recreate a class divide. This has started by stopping ordinary workers from negative gearing whilst allowing the wealthy, business owners and the beneficiaries of a rich daddies trust fund to continue as usual. Not to mention the attack on the tax thresholds.

Let’s see what their next attack on the poor and ordinary is.

Do you realise that the LNP has been in power since '13*?

Not sure how unions are responsible for "...stopping ordinary workers from negative gearing..." and "...the attack on the tax thresholds...". Did I read that correctly? Perhaps you could explain?

Also, given that the LNP has been in power since '13 and that they have gone out of their way to smash the unions, please explain, "Let's see what their next attack on the poor and ordinary is"?

*LNP in power from '08 through '17 in WA

 

[twotooto]

Unions have been weakened by losing there supporter base. Mostly due to people being better off without them and not wanting to be associated with boasting criminals.

What sort of proof do you have for the bolded?

Your mate Bazza who, "worked fa years in one ov da bik mining compees in W.AYYY" doesn't count.

 

[TimmeT]

Do you realise that the LNP has been in power since '09?

Not sure how unions are responsible for "...stopping ordinary workers from negative gearing..." and "...the attack on the tax thresholds...". Did I read that correctly? Perhaps you could explain?

Also, given that the LNP has been in power since '09 and that they have gone out of their way to smash the unions, please explain, "Let's see what their next attack on the poor and ordinary is"?

What the * is meant by your first line? Pretty sure it was Rudd's first term in 09