Unpopular basketball opinions

Knightmare

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Thread name is self explanatory.

Make your own calls.

Agree/disagree as you please. These are just mine.

1. T-Wolves should build around Butler and trade both KAT and Wiggins.
Note how poor apathetic and inept KAT and Wiggins both are on defence. Meet The Worst Defensive Duo In The NBA (Bballbreakdown YouTube)

2. D.Rose should be the starting point guard for the T-Wolves ahead of Teague and is a top 15 NBA Point Guard today.
Consider his playoff performance. Shot over 50% from the field. 70% from 3. Scoring 21.5ppg per 36min. He was along with Butler that only other player to provide any value for the T-Wolves in that series. He can still hoop.

3. Joakim Noah can still hoop and should be a part of an NBA rotation.
Good for more than 12.5rpg per 36min each of the past two seasons and still highly effective defensively. On offence is one of the best passing bigs and will hit the offensive boards.

4. Brandon Ingram should be the Lakers starting point guard and should start with Hart, LeBron, Kuzma, and Javale.
With LeBron the key has always been having floor spacers around him. Ingram is a substantially better shooter than Rondo/Lonzo and is effective both as that handler or scorer/shooter. It also allows LeBron to handle more.

5. Jimmy Butler is a top 10 player in the NBA today.
Note: 4th in real plus minus in 2017/2018 season. Also one of the handful of elite two way players with the only others being: AD, Kawhi, KD, Klay and Giannis.

6. Jimmer Fredette is good enough to start in the NBA - conditional on an offence being built around him and Jimmer being given the green light to shoot whenever, from wherever.

7. Wilt is the GOAT.
100 points in a game. A 50/25 season. The endurance to play 48+ minutes per game over a season. Averaging over 9 blocks per game over his career. Led the NBA in assists. The only individual who was so dominant the rules had to be changed so reduce how dominant he was.

8. Russell also is better than MJ.
Greatest winner and second only to Wilt for defence and rebounding. No one was more clutch or able to psychologically demoralise you like Russell could, waiting till the final quarter to block all your shots. And he'd block it offensively at the bottom of the ball to teammates, not out of bounds, understanding that regaining possession from a block is more valuable than swatting it out of bounds and allowing the offence to get the ball back. He'd get rebounds and his teammates knew before he took the rebound to be running with his Celtics as a result the best ever fast break team in NBA history. A rare player who could play with anyone and make a team better, not needing touches on offence to have an influence.

9. Oscar was better than Magic.
Averaged 30,10 and 10 over his first five seasons. Also had a rare shooting percentage for such a high scorer in an era where the paint was packed like no other. Outside of MJ, that next best scoring non-big.

10. If MJ played today he could average 40ppg.
With no hand checking and such soft perimeter and rim defence today, MJ would get past defenders for more easy buckets and get to the line even more than he did. And that would be curtains on any notion that LeBron is better than Michael with Michael's defence streets better.

11. If Wilt played today he'd average 40ppg (60%fg), 18rpg, 5apg, 4bpg and 1.5spg per 36min (and he'd play 48 minutes because he has the stamina).
Higher FG% than his playing years due to much greater space inside to operate. Less RPG due to a less frenetic pace of game and more long rebounds. Less blocks due to more 3pt shooting. Assist increase due to perimeter shooters to pass to when double teamed and the adjudication of 3pt shooting being substantially more liberal than during Wilt's time.

12. If Russell played today he be argued by many a greater athlete than LeBron. LeBron is physically much larger. But Russell is faster and a greater leaper.
*See Wilt Chamberlain Archive (Youtube) for footage and data on Russell's athleticism.
 

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Knightmare

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Happy for a thread merge.

They're unpopular opinions for a reason. They're opinions I suspect most NBA fans will disagree on.

--

Rose v Teague in the playoffs. 6.2 more ppg per 36min. 41% better from 3 - making 0.5 more on 1.2 less attempts from 3. 5.8% better from the field.

I had Rose after Butler, and they could be arguably tied first in importance in that series. Not only was Rose decisively better than Teague, but also decisively better than KAT, Wiggins and the rest of the roster in that series.

Play Rose 25mpg as the starting point guard, and I have Minnesota winning 2-3 more games than if Teague starts.

*Of NBA point guards. And I won't include LeBron, Giannis or Harden in the conversation even though they may be the three best point guards if they were asked to play the position.

I've got Steph, Lillard, CP3, Irving, Lowry, Holiday, Walker, Wall, Simmons, Westbrook and D.Russell ahead of Rose. Collin Sexton may be a further if he is as good as I expect in his rookie season. With Bledsoe, Dragic and Teague just behind Rose in my point guard standings. Evans in the conversation if considered a point.

--
On Jimmer he was good for 5.1 3's per game at 41.3% shooting from 3 and 45% from the field and 95.2% from the line with 6.8 makes per game. Averaged 36.9ppg, 5.5apg, 2spg and 6.9rpg in 41.9mpg. Those are serious numbers. And it's not like he is a one season wonder averaging 37.6ppg in 16/17 on 47.4% from the field.

In the NBA why things never worked for Jimmer in my view is he never had an offence built around him. He was never given that free licence. Teams always wanted Jimmer to play to their system and he never had the willingness to fit.

Good coaches let players do what they do. Jimmer has never in the NBA been allowed the opportunity to be Jimmer. Let him space the floor like Steph and the gravity he can open up the offence for everyone to do their thing. He has the capacity if given the offence to average 3.5+ 3's per 36min at 40+%. That's big impact towards winning.
 

AngryRanga

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1. For the upcoming season, Butler is better than Towns/Wiggins. But we have team control over Wiggins/Towns for ages, and Butler is ageing. No.

2. You're basing this off 5 games? You use RPM later for your Butler argument, but Rose was 481st for RPM last season. I believe he's good enough to be a back-up spark plug (behind Tyus Jones in minutes please), but analytically he's one of the worst players in the league. Having him as a top 30 PG is ridiculous.

3. Agree, for regular season only. The question being, why would any non-playoff team need an old big man to add a couple of wins.

4. There is no reason for that to be the starting lineup, and it won't be, but it should be really good when they run it during the season.

5. Agreed, but at 10th. See SI's top 100.
 

Knightmare

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1. For the upcoming season, Butler is better than Towns/Wiggins. But we have team control over Wiggins/Towns for ages, and Butler is ageing. No.

2. You're basing this off 5 games? You use RPM later for your Butler argument, but Rose was 481st for RPM last season. I believe he's good enough to be a back-up spark plug (behind Tyus Jones in minutes please), but analytically he's one of the worst players in the league. Having him as a top 30 PG is ridiculous.

3. Agree, for regular season only. The question being, why would any non-playoff team need an old big man to add a couple of wins.

4. There is no reason for that to be the starting lineup, and it won't be, but it should be really good when they run it during the season.

5. Agreed, but at 10th. See SI's top 100.
1. Are Wiggins and Towns players who can be built around? Are they worth the contracts? They can score, but they're among the worst defenders in the game. They're not winning the T-Wolves a chip. I don't believe they even make the playoffs in the future without Butler. I'd personally be bringing Butler back on the max and trading Towns and Wiggins - assuming they were the conditions for Butler to stay. I don't have either Towns or Wiggins in the same conversation. Both can score, but they're both such liabilities on defence whereas Butler can score just as easily and is one of the games premier defenders. Butler is also a worker and continues to improve, so I'm not seeing a drop off in performance all that soon.

2. Rose actually played 5 more playoff minutes than he did during the regular season for the T-Wolves, so that sample size is both on volume of minutes and quality of opposition a relatively better read on his capabilities than what we saw of him during the regular season. I have Rose ahead of Teague and clearly ahead of Jones. My view is Teague should be traded and Rose starts with Jones his backup. With a small scoring guard on the minimum as depth and there as an injury backup - the Aaron Brooks/Nate Robinson type.

3. I can see Noah fitting any team. I'd love to see Golden State take him and have him coming off the bench for energy minutes. They're such a selfless team, and Noah could so easily screen, get around the rim for offensive boards and pass from the post either finding cutters or open three point shooters or if the space is in front of him just drive to the rack. All things he can do.

4. Don't rate Ingram over Rondo/Lonzo? Don't think LeBron needs shooting around him? It feels like the obvious answer everyone is too blind to consider.

5. I've only got AD, Giannis, KD, LeBron and a healthy and motivated Kawhi ahead of Jimmy. Joel Embiid per 36min I also favour, though I'd like more minutes before I can put him ahead of Jimmy in a 48 minute game. Steph/Harden close, obviously much more offensively gifted but due to their defensive ineptitude I have behind Jimmy. Klay I've have at 9 and probably CP3 at 10.
 

AngryRanga

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1. Are Wiggins and Towns players who can be built around? Are they worth the contracts? They can score, but they're among the worst defenders in the game. They're not winning the T-Wolves a chip. I don't believe they even make the playoffs in the future without Butler. I'd personally be bringing Butler back on the max and trading Towns and Wiggins - assuming they were the conditions for Butler to stay. I don't have either Towns or Wiggins in the same conversation. Both can score, but they're both such liabilities on defence whereas Butler can score just as easily and is one of the games premier defenders. Butler is also a worker and continues to improve, so I'm not seeing a drop off in performance all that soon.

2. Rose actually played 5 more playoff minutes than he did during the regular season for the T-Wolves, so that sample size is both on volume of minutes and quality of opposition a relatively better read on his capabilities than what we saw of him during the regular season. I have Rose ahead of Teague and clearly ahead of Jones. My view is Teague should be traded and Rose starts with Jones his backup. With a small scoring guard on the minimum as depth and there as an injury backup - the Aaron Brooks/Nate Robinson type.

3. I can see Noah fitting any team. I'd love to see Golden State take him and have him coming off the bench for energy minutes. They're such a selfless team, and Noah could so easily screen, get around the rim for offensive boards and pass from the post either finding cutters or open three point shooters or if the space is in front of him just drive to the rack. All things he can do.

4. Don't rate Ingram over Rondo/Lonzo? Don't think LeBron needs shooting around him? It feels like the obvious answer everyone is too blind to consider.

5. I've only got AD, Giannis, KD, LeBron and a healthy and motivated Kawhi ahead of Jimmy. Joel Embiid per 36min I also favour, though I'd like more minutes before I can put him ahead of Jimmy in a 48 minute game. Steph/Harden close, obviously much more offensively gifted but due to their defensive ineptitude I have behind Jimmy. Klay I've have at 9 and probably CP3 at 10.
1. Towns is certainly a player to build around. Absolute top tier for efficient scoring amongst the entire league (second to Curry in TS% last regular season with over 10 FGA, 64.6%). He is a generational talent, even with his lacklustre defence. I also believe that Wiggins is currently being severely underrated due to his Butler-damaged season, but I'm not going to argue he's worth the max. There are very few players in this league that can bring their team a chip, and if that was the only parameter 27 odd teams would be blowing it up and tanking.

Butler is 29, with multiple knee injuries, and can't guarantee more than 65 games a season. He will not be elite in 3 years time.
2. That RPM figure took in his time with the Cavs as well, and he's consistently been horrific with impact numbers in the last few seasons. I'd make the argument that being a burst scorer off the bench resolves the issue somewhat, but your suggestion of starting him just puts him back in a role which he has failed at recently.

4. Not as a primary ball-handler. Rondo more than doubled, and Lonzo nearly doubled his AST/TO. As a lineup to use, sure.

5. When you get to the point where Steph Curry and James Harden, two of the most transformative players of the current era, aren't cracking your top 6, I think you are beginning to overestimate defence in your calculations. I guess that is all personal philosophy though.
 

Knightmare

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1. Towns is certainly a player to build around. Absolute top tier for efficient scoring amongst the entire league (second to Curry in TS% last regular season with over 10 FGA, 64.6%). He is a generational talent, even with his lacklustre defence. I also believe that Wiggins is currently being severely underrated due to his Butler-damaged season, but I'm not going to argue he's worth the max. There are very few players in this league that can bring their team a chip, and if that was the only parameter 27 odd teams would be blowing it up and tanking.

Butler is 29, with multiple knee injuries, and can't guarantee more than 65 games a season. He will not be elite in 3 years time.
2. That RPM figure took in his time with the Cavs as well, and he's consistently been horrific with impact numbers in the last few seasons. I'd make the argument that being a burst scorer off the bench resolves the issue somewhat, but your suggestion of starting him just puts him back in a role which he has failed at recently.

4. Not as a primary ball-handler. Rondo more than doubled, and Lonzo nearly doubled his AST/TO. As a lineup to use, sure.

5. When you get to the point where Steph Curry and James Harden, two of the most transformative players of the current era, aren't cracking your top 6, I think you are beginning to overestimate defence in your calculations. I guess that is all personal philosophy though.
1. No argument on the offensive capabilities of either Towns or Wiggins. They're both among the best scorers at their positions, Towns especially. It's just with the game not being the NFL and being a two way game, they're not all that helpful towards winning.

Butler other than his first season and last season has always played 65+ games, I don't see that changing. He's hard and will play hurt. He's not Kawhi who only plays when feeling 100%. Typically you're right about perimeter players dropping off in their early 30s, but Butler is one who due to his work ethic who can continue producing beyond that. I'm not sure in three years time he is any worse, if he's on the right team in the right system.

2. I'm not convinced Rose has been utilised at all correctly since his injuries. With the Cavs he obviously wasn't a fit with LeBron needing perimeter shooting and off ball guys and wasn't given the ball to have any chance to be himself. Rose can play some off ball, but he's so great with it in his hands, you don't want him playing off ball that much. In New York while Rose wasn't playing in a system that suited him, as it was a lot of dump it to Melo, he still averaged 20 points per 36min and had a higher fg% than Mello at an excellent 47.1%. Rose is a serious worker, and he's still young enough, and will only be 30 by the start of the regular season, so if he is given the ball. He can still do some serious damage. He hasn't lost any of his speed and he can still get to the rim at will when he wants to. He just needs to be asked to get into attack mode as he was in the playoffs v Houston. His natural game is an unselfish pass first game, but as with MVP Derrick, when you tell him to get into attack mode. He can score on anyone.

4. LeBron is always a primary ball handler. If he plays with Lonzo, with Lonzo unable to run an offence and only having the passing capabilities on move to push the ball up the court, he isn't handling. Lonzo is just high speed run and gun. Rondo if on the court would always want to be the decision maker. That's the only time I really see LeBron forfeiting the primary handler role in the half court. Ingram is a capable enough handler to be a primary handler if he wants, but being on the court with LeBron it would be 60/40 LeBron/Ingram. And could be something like a Harden/CP3 split.

5. Defence is half the game. Steph and Harden offensively probably are 1/2 respectively for offence, but on the defensive end would be in the bottom quarter it would be reasonable to say at their positions most probably would agree. And no one in NBA history creates gravity like Steph, and Harden gets to the line like no perimeter player before him, so their impacts are tremendous towards winning, but just having those two way impact players really gives you a lot of options on both ends of the court.

As a hypothetical. If you're to create a 7 man playoff rotation using any current NBA players who would you choose?
I'd have:
C: AD
PF: Giannis
SF: Kawhi
SG: KD
PG: LeBron
6th man: Embiid
Role player: Butler

I like the group for maximised height and defence. Teams wouldn't be able to drive or shoot 3s over them. No weak links on defence to exploit, they can all switch. And then on offence they're still among the best scorers in the NBA, are all willing passers and can all handle though LeBron and Giannis would be the two primary handlers.

This group probably speaks to my heightened value on defence compared to most fans and NBA analysts though as per your suspicion.
 

nahnah

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#8
C: Davis
PF: LeBron
SF: Durant
SG: Kawhi
PG: Curry
6th man: Harden
Role player: Embiid
 

Knightmare

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C: Davis
PF: LeBron
SF: Durant
SG: Kawhi
PG: Curry
6th man: Harden
Role player: Embiid
I feel like this would be the popular team. And there are no weak links, like a Westbrook where he has no capacity to play off ball and would be a liability.

It's a team that would beat teams 115-100. It's a good selection.

Why I went with Giannis and Jimmy over Curry and Harden is that's more a team that would win 105-85. Keep teams to a much lower score and win by an even greater margin.

The offence is still great, but it's just not leaking points and there aren't those weak links who can be exploited defensively.

If I'm playing 2k though, I'd go the shooting/scoring and go with your team also.
 

fidstar

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#10
1. Are Wiggins and Towns players who can be built around? Are they worth the contracts? They can score, but they're among the worst defenders in the game. They're not winning the T-Wolves a chip. I don't believe they even make the playoffs in the future without Butler. I'd personally be bringing Butler back on the max and trading Towns and Wiggins - assuming they were the conditions for Butler to stay. I don't have either Towns or Wiggins in the same conversation. Both can score, but they're both such liabilities on defence whereas Butler can score just as easily and is one of the games premier defenders. Butler is also a worker and continues to improve, so I'm not seeing a drop off in performance all that soon.

2. Rose actually played 5 more playoff minutes than he did during the regular season for the T-Wolves, so that sample size is both on volume of minutes and quality of opposition a relatively better read on his capabilities than what we saw of him during the regular season. I have Rose ahead of Teague and clearly ahead of Jones. My view is Teague should be traded and Rose starts with Jones his backup. With a small scoring guard on the minimum as depth and there as an injury backup - the Aaron Brooks/Nate Robinson type.

3. I can see Noah fitting any team. I'd love to see Golden State take him and have him coming off the bench for energy minutes. They're such a selfless team, and Noah could so easily screen, get around the rim for offensive boards and pass from the post either finding cutters or open three point shooters or if the space is in front of him just drive to the rack. All things he can do.

4. Don't rate Ingram over Rondo/Lonzo? Don't think LeBron needs shooting around him? It feels like the obvious answer everyone is too blind to consider.

5. I've only got AD, Giannis, KD, LeBron and a healthy and motivated Kawhi ahead of Jimmy. Joel Embiid per 36min I also favour, though I'd like more minutes before I can put him ahead of Jimmy in a 48 minute game. Steph/Harden close, obviously much more offensively gifted but due to their defensive ineptitude I have behind Jimmy. Klay I've have at 9 and probably CP3 at 10.
Picking Butler over Curry (and Harden)... I got nothing.
 

fidstar

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#11
I feel like this would be the popular team. And there are no weak links, like a Westbrook where he has no capacity to play off ball and would be a liability.

It's a team that would beat teams 115-100. It's a good selection.

Why I went with Giannis and Jimmy over Curry and Harden is that's more a team that would win 105-85. Keep teams to a much lower score and win by an even greater margin.

The offence is still great, but it's just not leaking points and there aren't those weak links who can be exploited defensively.

If I'm playing 2k though, I'd go the shooting/scoring and go with your team also.
But having Curry on your team means you win 145-100. You are just underestimating what Curry does to a offense by just being out there.
 

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Knightmare

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But having Curry on your team means you win 145-100. You are just underestimating what Curry does to a offense by just being out there.
Offensively I view Curry as the NBA's most impactful due to the gravity and sheer range he has on his shot where he can pull up from anywhere at any time. It opens up the court like no one else.

145ppg over a season isn't realistic.

Curry's Warriors with KD and Klay averaged 113.5. Doesn't matter who you add to that team. They're not making the jump to 145ppg. That's why I said 120 if you add those lethal offensive pieces.

The key to my above lineup is LeBron at point guard. He has been a liability for a new seasons now defensively but put him at point, take the offensive load off of him as would happen with all those guys having scoring capabilities and Steph or any point guard would have a bad day with LeBron arguably able to defend the position better than anyone in the NBA. Guys aren't driving past him, seeing or shooting over him easily. And anyone who gets switched onto Steph with the length of that whole squad also would cause him or any other point guard in the NBA serious trouble. And on the other end. Steph would have to be switched off of LeBron entirely, with no capacity to defend him. It would be a bad situation made worse if both Curry and Harden were on that same team with matchups galore offensively that can be exploited.

If I added an 8th player to my above squad, I'd next go with Klay over Curry or Harden, continuing to get guys who can play both ways.

If you have 5 lethal scorers. You have to remember. There is only one basketball. So the returns are somewhat diminished, whereas on defence, any weak links and you're getting killed the other way.
 

fidstar

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Offensively I view Curry as the NBA's most impactful due to the gravity and sheer range he has on his shot where he can pull up from anywhere at any time. It opens up the court like no one else.

145ppg over a season isn't realistic.

Curry's Warriors with KD and Klay averaged 113.5. Doesn't matter who you add to that team. They're not making the jump to 145ppg. That's why I said 120 if you add those lethal offensive pieces.

The key to my above lineup is LeBron at point guard. He has been a liability for a new seasons now defensively but put him at point, take the offensive load off of him as would happen with all those guys having scoring capabilities and Steph or any point guard would have a bad day with LeBron arguably able to defend the position better than anyone in the NBA. Guys aren't driving past him, seeing or shooting over him easily. And anyone who gets switched onto Steph with the length of that whole squad also would cause him or any other point guard in the NBA serious trouble. And on the other end. Steph would have to be switched off of LeBron entirely, with no capacity to defend him. It would be a bad situation made worse if both Curry and Harden were on that same team with matchups galore offensively that can be exploited.

If I added an 8th player to my above squad, I'd next go with Klay over Curry or Harden, continuing to get guys who can play both ways.

If you have 5 lethal scorers. You have to remember. There is only one basketball. So the returns are somewhat diminished, whereas on defence, any weak links and you're getting killed the other way.
I think you took my post too seriously about 145. My point was that Steph adds so much offensively that the fact he is an average defender (he's not a bad defender) doesn't matter. To me adding Butler (who is only a decent offensive player) because he's pretty good at defense is silly.

Also, how much Warriors basketball do you watch? Steph very rarely gets exploited. It got to a point that the Rockets stopped doing it in their series because it flat out wasn't working.

And you are talking about putting a bunch of talent on the court at one time. That's not what your initial post said. You just rated Butler better than Curry. So, the question I have is... If you were Warrior management you would make the trade of Curry for Butler? And if you were Rockets management you would make the trade of Harden for Butler?
 

Knightmare

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I think you took my post too seriously about 145. My point was that Steph adds so much offensively that the fact he is an average defender (he's not a bad defender) doesn't matter. To me adding Butler (who is only a decent offensive player) because he's pretty good at defense is silly.

Also, how much Warriors basketball do you watch? Steph very rarely gets exploited. It got to a point that the Rockets stopped doing it in their series because it flat out wasn't working.

And you are talking about putting a bunch of talent on the court at one time. That's not what your initial post said. You just rated Butler better than Curry. So, the question I have is... If you were Warrior management you would make the trade of Curry for Butler? And if you were Rockets management you would make the trade of Harden for Butler?
That's massively underestimating Butler's capabilities.

He is an elite defensive player, one of the better 2-3 perimeter defenders in the NBA and he's still one of the best and most efficient scorers.

Steph has quick hands and can get some steals, but it sounds like you're forgetting Steph's incompetence defensively in game 2 in that series. Further to that, if you're making Steph work on defense. He has nothing to give on offense. With Houston relentlessly attacking Steph in those first two games in that Houston series, he did nothing offensively scoring 18 and 16 points in those games on 20% and 15% 3pt shooting.

I do rate Butler ahead of Curry and I would in a lineup all things being equal pick Butler ahead of Curry.

In the Rockets situation given it's a D'Antoni team. They're better off with Harden who is made much better due to their system. Butler isn't a pace and space offence guy to play to his capabilities for D'Antoni.

Any of the other 29 NBA teams. Give me Butler over Harden. Harden isn't having that influence on any other team, in any other system. The Rockets are a team optimised for his play.
 

fidstar

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You preach about defense and then you put KD @ SG and LeBron @ point?

Weird.
 

Knightmare

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You preach about defense and then you put KD @ SG and LeBron @ point?

Weird.
LeBron is a masterful defender at the point.

No one is shooting over KD's length. He's become a terrific defender in his own right.

The defence would be less about playing a position as much as having a defence that is always switching with no one exploitable whether they have to defend down low or on the perimeter.
 

fidstar

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That's massively underestimating Butler's capabilities.

He is an elite defensive player, one of the better 2-3 perimeter defenders in the NBA and he's still one of the best and most efficient scorers.

Steph has quick hands and can get some steals, but it sounds like you're forgetting Steph's incompetence defensively in game 2 in that series. Further to that, if you're making Steph work on defense. He has nothing to give on offense. With Houston relentlessly attacking Steph in those first two games in that Houston series, he did nothing offensively scoring 18 and 16 points in those games on 20% and 15% 3pt shooting.

I do rate Butler ahead of Curry and I would in a lineup all things being equal pick Butler ahead of Curry.

In the Rockets situation given it's a D'Antoni team. They're better off with Harden who is made much better due to their system. Butler isn't a pace and space offence guy to play to his capabilities for D'Antoni.

Any of the other 29 NBA teams. Give me Butler over Harden. Harden isn't having that influence on any other team, in any other system. The Rockets are a team optimised for his play.
You don't watch much Warriors do you?

Firstly the main reason a team attacks Steph is because who should they attack? Green? Durant? Iggy? Thompson?

And it doesn't work anyway.

Houston literally stopped attacking Steph because it wasn't working.

Numbers show Steph does just fine when being isolated.

e.g. LeBron James is shooting 6-26 (19%) when guarded by Stephen Curry in his Finals career, including 2-5 with a turnover in OT on Thursday (stat after Game 1 of the Finals this year).

Anyway, I'm not even saying he's a good defender. He's just a solid defender. Main point is he's not a sieve and adds so much more at the other end. But if you're a GM go and pick Butler. You'd be the only one.

Also weird that you have 65+ in 5 of his 7 seasons as showing he's not injury prone? Butler misses heaps of games. Has had one season where he didn't have injury problems. He's only played more than 67 games in 2 of his 7 seasons.
 

fidstar

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LeBron is a masterful defender at the point.

No one is shooting over KD's length. He's become a terrific defender in his own right.

The defence would be less about playing a position as much as having a defence that is always switching with no one exploitable whether they have to defend down low or on the perimeter.
LeBron isn't 27 any more. Good point guards are taking him apart now.

KD isn't chasing SG around. Him guarding someone like Klay would be a massacre. He's not keeping with Klay. His defensive strengths are around the basket.
 

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You don't watch much Warriors do you?

Firstly the main reason a team attacks Steph is because who should they attack? Green? Durant? Iggy? Thompson?

And it doesn't work anyway.

Houston literally stopped attacking Steph because it wasn't working.

Numbers show Steph does just fine when being isolated.

e.g. LeBron James is shooting 6-26 (19%) when guarded by Stephen Curry in his Finals career, including 2-5 with a turnover in OT on Thursday (stat after Game 1 of the Finals this year).

Anyway, I'm not even saying he's a good defender. He's just a solid defender. Main point is he's not a sieve and adds so much more at the other end. But if you're a GM go and pick Butler. You'd be the only one.

Also weird that you have 65+ in 5 of his 7 seasons as showing he's not injury prone? Butler misses heaps of games. Has had one season where he didn't have injury problems. He's only played more than 67 games in 2 of his 7 seasons.
There is no team I watch more than the Warriors. They're the most fun team in the NBA to watch as an unselfish team with a roster filled with guys who can pull up from anywhere, or have anyone go off on any given night.

Steph when isolated is helped by teammates who don't let players easily slip to the rim. They help him on defence.

I'll give Steph adequate on defence but he's not good on defence. He's more someone who has quick hands and plays the passing lanes. That's where he feels most comfortable on that end.

On Jimmy's durability. His first season he wasn't given minutes, as he wasn't part of Thibs' rotation. Last year was the only other season he played less than 65 games, and that was because he wasn't right to go at the start of the season. His 36.7 minutes per game is the least he has played over the past 5 years. No one has over the past five years per game has played been required to play more minutes than Jimmy.

If I'm thinking of stars without durability. I think more about Kawhi (only 3/7 seasons with 65 or more games - and no interest in playing hurt), Kyrie Irving (only 3/7 seasons with 65 or more games and two key playoff series missed), Kevin Love (5/10 seasons of less than 65 games), Anthony Davis (never playing more than 75 games and not playing even 70 games until the past two years), Chris Paul (6/13 seasons with less than 65 games played).

LeBron isn't 27 any more. Good point guards are taking him apart now.

KD isn't chasing SG around. Him guarding someone like Klay would be a massacre. He's not keeping with Klay. His defensive strengths are around the basket.
Depends on matchups. KD and Kawhi can easily switch and Kawhi can run with Klay if that's the matchup. Giannis can come out to the perimeter and switch with KD if he needs to rest more on D. Jimmy can come in and play either the 2/3. So it's pretty easy to deal with any matchup. They're more flexible positions than traditional, that's where they will spend the whole game/that's their role. It's a team defence concept and constant switching.
 

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If I'm thinking of stars without durability. I think more about Kawhi (only 3/7 seasons with 65 or more games - and no interest in playing hurt), Kyrie Irving (only 3/7 seasons with 65 or more games and two key playoff series missed), Kevin Love (5/10 seasons of less than 65 games), Anthony Davis (never playing more than 75 games and not playing even 70 games until the past two years), Chris Paul (6/13 seasons with less than 65 games played).
.
Yeah, I'm not seeing how any of those players are much different to Butler who has 5 of 7 seasons under 68 games. Even giving him his rookie season he's 4 of 6 playing less than 68 games. None of those players you mentioned have a higher percentage of seasons playing less than that amount of games. You seem to use 65 games because it makes Butler look better.

This idea that you have that he's some kind of Warriors who never misses time is weird.

You have too much man-love for Butler.

The fact you rank him higher than 10ish players that are clearly better than him shows that.

We haven't even talked about that he seems like an asshole that no one wants to play with.
 

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Depends on matchups. KD and Kawhi can easily switch and Kawhi can run with Klay if that's the matchup. Giannis can come out to the perimeter and switch with KD if he needs to rest more on D. Jimmy can come in and play either the 2/3. So it's pretty easy to deal with any matchup. They're more flexible positions than traditional, that's where they will spend the whole game/that's their role. It's a team defence concept and constant switching.
I think we got side tracked. I have no issues with anyone picking KD over Steph. And even a fully fit KL has merits.

Butler doesn't.
 

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Yeah, I'm not seeing how any of those players are much different to Butler who has 5 of 7 seasons under 68 games. Even giving him his rookie season he's 4 of 6 playing less than 68 games. None of those players you mentioned have a higher percentage of seasons playing less than that amount of games. You seem to use 65 games because it makes Butler look better.

This idea that you have that he's some kind of Warriors who never misses time is weird.

You have too much man-love for Butler.

The fact you rank him higher than 10ish players that are clearly better than him shows that.

We haven't even talked about that he seems like an asshole that no one wants to play with.
Choosing 68 as a magic number and not considering Butler playing the highest minutes per game over the past five seasons I would term as selective.

My suggestion isn't that Butler doesn't miss games. As you've rightly pointed out, other than his second season playing 82 games, that was the only season.

I have Butler edging towards the top 5. He should have placed top 5 in the MVP voting last year with only AD, Giannis and Harden having better regular seasons. From Butler's 22nd game till the end of the season only AD played better basketball from there until the end of the season.

Butler rightly expects a lot from his teammates, so when you've got KAT and Wiggins who are the worst defensive combination of any starting unit in the NBA - with KAT playing for stats and Wiggins playing for money, Butler being all about winning and hard work isn't going to stand for that. He's a culture setter who demands players work, play hard and play unselfishly.

I think we got side tracked. I have no issues with anyone picking KD over Steph. And even a fully fit KL has merits.

Butler doesn't.
There should be no argument on KD being ahead of Steph.

I have Klay also ahead of Steph and Harden. For the same reason as Butler. He has the offensive capabilities on that elite level as Butler does, but on the defensive end, he's elite, just as Butler is.

It's not the NFL. It's a two way game. You want as many players who are elite on both ends as possible. Having no one under 6'6 and having length, athleticism and strength at each position is huge. It can stop offences for long portions of games when you have a defence as per my suggested group.
 

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Choosing 68 as a magic number and not considering Butler playing the highest minutes per game over the past five seasons I would term as selective.

My suggestion isn't that Butler doesn't miss games. As you've rightly pointed out, other than his second season playing 82 games, that was the only season.

I have Butler edging towards the top 5. He should have placed top 5 in the MVP voting last year with only AD, Giannis and Harden having better regular seasons. From Butler's 22nd game till the end of the season only AD played better basketball from there until the end of the season.

Butler rightly expects a lot from his teammates, so when you've got KAT and Wiggins who are the worst defensive combination of any starting unit in the NBA - with KAT playing for stats and Wiggins playing for money, Butler being all about winning and hard work isn't going to stand for that. He's a culture setter who demands players work, play hard and play unselfishly.



There should be no argument on KD being ahead of Steph.

I have Klay also ahead of Steph and Harden. For the same reason as Butler. He has the offensive capabilities on that elite level as Butler does, but on the defensive end, he's elite, just as Butler is.

It's not the NFL. It's a two way game. You want as many players who are elite on both ends as possible. Having no one under 6'6 and having length, athleticism and strength at each position is huge. It can stop offences for long portions of games when you have a defence as per my suggested group.
There's just so much head scratching stuff in here I think I will stop arguing.

You obviously love your man, but so much of what you write is based on that and not realism. There's a reason 100 people out of 100 people would pick Steph on a team before Butler. They aren't all wrong.

I do think you'll make a good husband, because when your wife asks you if she looks good in a bikini and you say she looks better than any supermodel, you'll actually mean it.
 

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There's just so much head scratching stuff in here I think I will stop arguing.

You obviously love your man, but so much of what you write is based on that and not realism. There's a reason 100 people out of 100 people would pick Steph on a team before Butler. They aren't all wrong.

I do think you'll make a good husband, because when your wife asks you if she looks good in a bikini and you say she looks better than any supermodel, you'll actually mean it.
I'm more than happy to be part of that 0.1%, there is a reason it's an unpopular opinion.

Understanding perfectly well how much more highly Curry is regarded than Butler, and understanding how undervalued is Butler, with teams understanding they can get him as a free agent next year on a smaller contract than if they were to sign him now. It's a trade I'd make if Curry was on another team, other than the Warriors where there wasn't Durant and Thompson or a 3/2 of that quality.

If hypothetically Curry played for a team other than the Warriors, I'd be looking to move Curry for Butler, Teague, Dieng and x4 future unprotected first round picks from the T-Wolves. Gets the T-Wolves out from the Dieng contract they want to get out from under, gets them their star in return for Butler and you have a hell of a lot of potentially great future assets in first round picks that could be anything, with the T-Wolves not necessarily a playoff team every year with Curry/KAT/Wiggins with an incredible amount of money invested in just three players, or that group could well break up prematurely.

In the Warriors situation, moving Curry isn't practical as their group has the chemistry and needs the point guard more than a 2/3 in Butler, and being that championship favourite you can't do it. But in any other team situation, that's the kind of opportunistic deal I'd make understanding the T-Wolves have no leverage and those picks could well end up as something like a Celtics gaining Brooklyn Nets future first round pick kind of scenario where they've been clean robbed if things go your way.

And Thibs being all about the present, and the front office wanting to get rid of Dieng, it's a deal he'd probably agree to.
 

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I'm more than happy to be part of that 0.1%, there is a reason it's an unpopular opinion.

Understanding perfectly well how much more highly Curry is regarded than Butler, and understanding how undervalued is Butler, with teams understanding they can get him as a free agent next year on a smaller contract than if they were to sign him now. It's a trade I'd make if Curry was on another team, other than the Warriors where there wasn't Durant and Thompson or a 3/2 of that quality.

If hypothetically Curry played for a team other than the Warriors, I'd be looking to move Curry for Butler, Teague, Dieng and x4 future unprotected first round picks from the T-Wolves. Gets the T-Wolves out from the Dieng contract they want to get out from under, gets them their star in return for Butler and you have a hell of a lot of potentially great future assets in first round picks that could be anything, with the T-Wolves not necessarily a playoff team every year with Curry/KAT/Wiggins with an incredible amount of money invested in just three players, or that group could well break up prematurely.

In the Warriors situation, moving Curry isn't practical as their group has the chemistry and needs the point guard more than a 2/3 in Butler, and being that championship favourite you can't do it. But in any other team situation, that's the kind of opportunistic deal I'd make understanding the T-Wolves have no leverage and those picks could well end up as something like a Celtics gaining Brooklyn Nets future first round pick kind of scenario where they've been clean robbed if things go your way.

And Thibs being all about the present, and the front office wanting to get rid of Dieng, it's a deal he'd probably agree to.
I don't really understand what this post is trying to say. It doesn't really have anything to do with the quote you replied to.

No team ever makes that trade by the way. I don't even think it works financially and can you trade 4 draft picks?
 
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