Unpopular Carlton Opinions

Gethelred

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1. GCS and Saints are the only two teams I think we may pass. Long shots are Brisbane, after that point, someone needs to implode.

2. I agree maybe not, but my gut instinct is more on the regret than happiness. Still hearing Stocker ranked 6th on our list is also interesting.

3. Good to see a change in strategy direction.

4. I agree with all your busts. Just Kennedy's lack of pace and I am not sure he is an amazing inside midfielder, so his chances are limited.
At least one team implodes every year. We just had the poor fortune to already be bottom 4 when we did.

:'(
 

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Gethelred

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Our forwards will not be able to kick big scores until our ball movement from turnovers and our subsequent delivery by foot into the forward line takes a huge step forward.

Burst speed is part of this and currently we are dependent on a large group of unproven players that will need to massively improve for Carlton to be consistently competitive, i.e. Polson, Lang, Pickett, Garlett, Lebois, Williamson, Fasolo and Cuningham. Unfortunately these players are also the ones with the biggest question marks over their futures. We talk about Cripps needing support, but Murphy is the only proven player that can break lines with his dash forward of centre. He needs the support of another 2-3 quicks, so opposition teams can’t just concentrate on limiting Murphy’s influence.

If Carlton don’t win early games next year it’s probably going to be another long and largely unsuccessful season. If however the team can get some early wins on the board and feed off the youngsters’ enthusiasm we might see a huge improvement in both team and individual performances.
I've said it in the past, and I'll say it again; speed by foot is vastly overrated. There are plenty of players and teams that have done better with slower players than we currently possess. Speed of thought and disposal matter far, far more, as does a gameplan designed to minimise the risk of exposure from opposition pace. You can still play attacking footy whilst fielding a slower side; Geelong from 2007-2011 was the best attacking side over that time period, and the fastest bloke in there was either Motlop or Mackie, neither of which would set the world on fire (or Varcoe).

You need to be able to win the ball free of a stoppage cleanly (ie, not a hack kick stoppage 'win' which is immediately turned over or pressured again) and you need to be able to move the ball coherently from a wide position on the back/forward flank to/through CHF in a scoring position; it is best if you can cross the half forward line unpressured, as that provides you with options like crazy (go yourself, kick to a leading target, handball to a teammate to score) but if you can get the ball to CHF to kick into forward 50 - even under pressure - then you're going to see goals kicked.

It doesn't matter how you do it, by foot speed or disposal or by causing stoppage after stoppage after stoppage along the wing (Malthouse's Collingwood) to bring the ball all the way to the HF line before centring the thing, or by slingshotting the thing over opposition zones, getting the ball into the hands of your fastest player in a race to the forward line (Sydney, under Longmire). What matters is that you have a method to transition the ball quickly which doesn't result in a turnover 8 times out of ten.

That's our issue. Our clearances are not clean, and we cannot transition the ball quickly without causing turnovers.
 

Nori

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I've said it in the past, and I'll say it again; speed by foot is vastly overrated. There are plenty of players and teams that have done better with slower players than we currently possess. Speed of thought and disposal matter far, far more, as does a gameplan designed to minimise the risk of exposure from opposition pace. You can still play attacking footy whilst fielding a slower side; Geelong from 2007-2011 was the best attacking side over that time period, and the fastest bloke in there was either Motlop or Mackie, neither of which would set the world on fire (or Varcoe).

You need to be able to win the ball free of a stoppage cleanly (ie, not a hack kick stoppage 'win' which is immediately turned over or pressured again) and you need to be able to move the ball coherently from a wide position on the back/forward flank to/through CHF in a scoring position; it is best if you can cross the half forward line unpressured, as that provides you with options like crazy (go yourself, kick to a leading target, handball to a teammate to score) but if you can get the ball to CHF to kick into forward 50 - even under pressure - then you're going to see goals kicked.

It doesn't matter how you do it, by foot speed or disposal or by causing stoppage after stoppage after stoppage along the wing (Malthouse's Collingwood) to bring the ball all the way to the HF line before centring the thing, or by slingshotting the thing over opposition zones, getting the ball into the hands of your fastest player in a race to the forward line (Sydney, under Longmire). What matters is that you have a method to transition the ball quickly which doesn't result in a turnover 8 times out of ten.

That's our issue. Our clearances are not clean, and we cannot transition the ball quickly without causing turnovers.
Slow sides get found out. You don’t have to be fast all over the ground but you do need players that can carry the ball and break lines.

It’s not the whole puzzle, but it is a piece of the puzzle.
 
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BlueGum

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Love your posts BlueGum. They're always bright and positive, but you're complaining about someone calling a player "a dud". Really??? Fair to say we're a bloody long way from a never-ending tirade of four letter adjectives here aren't we???
S*** sorry TSG, missed your response and been tardy replying. I like your posting too, generous with your time and effort to go watch and write up observations about players, particularly the youngsters coming through. And the "yours truly" photos. Bit different to the normal media ones, like you want to be on the ground with them, seeing what they do in traffic, and do for the team. Thanks.

Yeah, I don't like dud labels.

It was kind of like your "vanilla" shit stirring. Turned into a interesting conversation about player attributes when you described what you meant. Everyone got into the discussion about the attributes, rather than take positions about the label. :)
 

thylacine60

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Wallsy's stoic, get on with it, don't feel sorry for ourselves, may well be the ideal message for The coaching and Playing Group now, following Docherty's cruel injury blow.

One trait i felt Robert Walls had as a coach and listening to him in the media over the years, was he had a tough love approach, and seemed to try ensure players didn't feel sorry for themselves during a rough patch (or so it seems to me, happy to be proven wrong).

Although his philosophy and style seems antiquated today, maybe we (the collectively) need to buy into what Wallsy's selling, at least in the short term, to try and not dwell too much/badly on the irreplaceable Sam Docherty .

Just hoping the players do not fall into the (understandably) depressed rut us fans have slumped into since the shocking news yesterday.

Perhaps Walls isn't the answer, but i just hope the club has the qualified people in place to try keep the morale and spirit of the group up (which i am sure they have).
tough love needs to be tempered - his extremes are legendary (and documented) you don't get players to smack the crap out of other players in a so-called training exercise unless it is YOU that is angry - that's your issue more than theirs - how and if he can influence the coaches will be an interesting exercise to observe - he may be rejected if his thinking is too far removed from current standards - think he has mellowed somewhat though it's certainly true different players can respond well to different coaching, mentoring and support styles......
 
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Walls just needs to pull his head in and do what he was engaged to do for the club, which is to 'mentor' the coaching staff, not provide a culture of 'tough love' to the players...that is ******* old school!!!

If he wasn't a Carlton legend....say it was a Grant Thomas or a Mick Malthouse, we'd be telling them to **** off!!

For mine, I would much rather have Parko down there than Walls.
 

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Gethelred

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Slow sides get found out. You don’t have to be fast all over the ground but you do need players that can carry the ball and break lines.

It’s not the whole puzzle, but it is a piece of the puzzle.
...

Like Geelong circa 2007-2011 did? Like Hawthorn between 2012-2015? Like every single Sydney side that has won a flag in the AFL era???

Slow sides get found out if, and only if, their coaching and their disposal is not up to snuff. Outside of that - and legspeed's ability to tear games open, if you can break the ball free or the opposition are not set up ahead of the ball - it's all between the ears and in speed of hand to ball/boot.
 

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Walls just needs to pull his head in and do what he was engaged to do for the club, which is to 'mentor' the coaching staff, not provide a culture of 'tough love' to the players...that is ******* old school!!!

If he wasn't a Carlton legend....say it was a Grant Thomas or a Mick Malthouse, we'd be telling them to **** off!!

For mine, I would much rather have Parko down there than Walls.
The problem is no player or coach will understand what Parko is talking about. A bit too intelligent for our modern man.
 

Nori

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...

Like Geelong circa 2007-2011 did? Like Hawthorn between 2012-2015? Like every single Sydney side that has won a flag in the AFL era???

Slow sides get found out if, and only if, their coaching and their disposal is not up to snuff. Outside of that - and legspeed's ability to tear games open, if you can break the ball free or the opposition are not set up ahead of the ball - it's all between the ears and in speed of hand to ball/boot.
Those sides weren't particularly slow. They still had ball carriers.

Your theory that speed is unnecessary makes about as much sense as height is unnecessary. I guess we'll just have to disagree.
 

Gethelred

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Those sides weren't particularly slow. They still had ball carriers.

Your theory that speed is unnecessary makes about as much sense as height is unnecessary. I guess we'll just have to disagree.
Didn't say that speed is unnecessary, just that it's overrated in terms of its importance.

And those sides, outside of maybe one or two players, were almost ubiquitously one paced.
 

goreds

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...

Like Geelong circa 2007-2011 did? Like Hawthorn between 2012-2015? Like every single Sydney side that has won a flag in the AFL era???

Slow sides get found out if, and only if, their coaching and their disposal is not up to snuff. Outside of that - and legspeed's ability to tear games open, if you can break the ball free or the opposition are not set up ahead of the ball - it's all between the ears and in speed of hand to ball/boot.
Wojinski, Byrne, Mackie, Pearce, S. Burgoyne, Rodan, Salopek, Ablett. That’s just 2007...

Shaw, Jetta, Malceski, Hannebery, 2012 Sydney Swans GF...

I could name 4 others from each team with above average speed if you like!

Point being that extreme speed is a must, especially coming off the wings and through half back, if you want to win a flag that is...;)
 

Gethelred

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Wojinski, Byrne, Mackie, Pearce, S. Burgoyne, Rodan, Salopek, Ablett. That’s just 2007...

Shaw, Jetta, Malceski, Hannebery, 2012 Sydney Swans GF...

I could name 4 others from each team with above average speed if you like!

Point being that extreme speed is a must, especially coming off the wings and through half back, if you want to win a flag that is...;)
Jetta and Shaw I'll give you, but Malceski and Hannebury are not fast.

Wojinski, Mackie and Ablett could be said to be pacy, but Ablett was always more a sidestep rather than burst pace. Shannon Byrne was in and out of the side between 2007-11, and is kind of what I'm talking about when I say that pace is overrated; he was in that side to be a point of difference, and he was as poor a player in that Geelong side as there was.

Steven Salopek - provided that's who you're indicating - played as a pure midfielder, but was in and out of Port's side over his career, averaging over 20 disposals a match for only two years of his 8 year career. Shaun Burgoyne was maybe above average, and you're kidding me if you think it was his pace that set him apart. Rodan was average as a player. Pearce is the only one who I'd call a speedster from that list of names, and he needed a coach of the calibre of Clarkson to shape a gameplan around using his pace.

Look, I'm not saying that speed isn't useful, just like strength or height - or incredible endurance - isn't useful. More, than speed alone gets you absolutely nowhere, albeit very, very quickly.
 

goreds

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Jetta and Shaw I'll give you, but Malceski and Hannebury are not fast.

Wojinski, Mackie and Ablett could be said to be pacy, but Ablett was always more a sidestep rather than burst pace. Shannon Byrne was in and out of the side between 2007-11, and is kind of what I'm talking about when I say that pace is overrated; he was in that side to be a point of difference, and he was as poor a player in that Geelong side as there was.

Steven Salopek - provided that's who you're indicating - played as a pure midfielder, but was in and out of Port's side over his career, averaging over 20 disposals a match for only two years of his 8 year career. Shaun Burgoyne was maybe above average, and you're kidding me if you think it was his pace that set him apart. Rodan was average as a player. Pearce is the only one who I'd call a speedster from that list of names, and he needed a coach of the calibre of Clarkson to shape a gameplan around using his pace.

Look, I'm not saying that speed isn't useful, just like strength or height - or incredible endurance - isn't useful. More, than speed alone gets you absolutely nowhere, albeit very, very quickly.
I still have visions of the slowest player ‘Mitchell’ feeding Hill and Smith on the outside in 2013 and 2014 and a BLOKE by the of Rioli who could run a bit as well tearing it up...

Probably the most complete side ever gathered...
 

Gethelred

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I still have visions of the slowest player ‘Mitchell’ feeding Hill and Smith on the outside in 2013 and 2014 and a BLOKE by the of Rioli who could run a bit as well tearing it up...

Probably the most complete side ever gathered...
Pretty bloody close. Just an absolute machine, with every piece working as intended.

Helped that the quick, the strong, and tall could all football. For me, that's the important bit.
 

Soapy V

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throw a spoonful of extra 12 months experience & pre-season mayo on that blt please, norster......
Agree. We are nowhere near as young in 2019. The benefit of 2018 is a lot of young players got games they wouldn't have normally. Our first lot of draftees under this regime is now in their 4th years. There is a good group in their 3rd years. Dow is mature beyond his years as is Walsh. We have added McGovern, Bugg, Goddard, Setterfield, Newman, Fasolo who are all ready to go mature body players and we haven't lost anyone of consequence.

In most peoples best 22 we have Cripps Kruezer Curnow Simpson Jones Plowman Murphy McGovern Newman (for Docherty) maybe Thomas. Weitering SPS Charlie Fisher Marchbank are all around the 50 game mark and have had 4 pre seasons

IMO youth isn't the issue anymore
 

JustaBattler

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Jetta and Shaw I'll give you, but Malceski and Hannebury are not fast.

Wojinski, Mackie and Ablett could be said to be pacy, but Ablett was always more a sidestep rather than burst pace. Shannon Byrne was in and out of the side between 2007-11, and is kind of what I'm talking about when I say that pace is overrated; he was in that side to be a point of difference, and he was as poor a player in that Geelong side as there was.

Steven Salopek - provided that's who you're indicating - played as a pure midfielder, but was in and out of Port's side over his career, averaging over 20 disposals a match for only two years of his 8 year career. Shaun Burgoyne was maybe above average, and you're kidding me if you think it was his pace that set him apart. Rodan was average as a player. Pearce is the only one who I'd call a speedster from that list of names, and he needed a coach of the calibre of Clarkson to shape a gameplan around using his pace.

Look, I'm not saying that speed isn't useful, just like strength or height - or incredible endurance - isn't useful. More, than speed alone gets you absolutely nowhere, albeit very, very quickly.
2 seriously fast players are a luxury in any side- Geelong picked em up seemingly without effort....that Wojinski was the fastest player in AFL off HB -- an absolute jet - pity he copped more than his fair share of injury bad luck over the years...

we've got Pickett all by himself on Carlton list as far as serious speed over 30-40 meters goes - kid is Yarranesque silk but maybe doesn't have the footy brain to match it....we'll see this year..that being said I reckon ground coverage capability has just gone up a notch with Walsh and LoB on the list added to Ed/Charlie forwards and mids are covered- I think slightly exposed for lack of leg speed (again) down back - both Byrne ( jet) and Docherty hard runner are gone (again) Simmo is good but not a serious speedster...the talls aren't slugs - but they aren't gunna do the rebound running...

Getting out of defensive 50 - is #1 issue to be fixed I would have thought - can't have a repeat of 2018 standards again...worth half a dozen games or more - just fixing that to average standards in AFL.
 
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