Vegan and Vegetarian Diets

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Nickos66 said:
Broken? Does it work now?
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Yep. That's pretty cringeworthy to be honest.

PoppedCorn said:
Its not a food
Why don't u eat a plastic bag??

Can't believe someone who promotes so much health and non meat stuff then puts something in their body that is not even classed as a food
Each to their own.
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Nickos66 said:
^why not just use Olive/manadamia oil. Marg is a molecule away from plastic.
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My (indoor) cat was eating plastic bags until I bought her a pot of grass to munch on...
In all seriousness though, the argument that unless I eliminate EVERYTHING unhealthy from my diet, then I shouldn't bother trying to be healthy is a weak one.
I agree that macadamia oil would be great, but as I'm currently living in Chile some things are harder to find. I'm happy to compromise with a tablespoon or so of margarine a fortnight. If that's what kills me then so be it, at least I'm only harming myself ;)

Nickos66 said:
Personally, I believe confirmation bias is far more blissful than ignorance, but then the two go hand in hand..

1st world Organic Farming practices and their pathetic yields I wager is likely just as more environmentally devastating per capita than any non-vegan farming practices. I also won't be posting any links because they won't be from sources that can be deemed from emotionally invested people as anything else but confirmation bias against vegans.
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See, I had no intention of going vegan. It only happened when I ran out of excuses not to, so I don't believe there was confirmation bias involved.

I'm happy to read your links, I'm not a source nazi if they make plausible arguments, and I try to make a point of understanding arguments contrary to my own position.
I read recently a paper about organic farming closing to about 80% of conventional production with potential to close to within 91-92%. Also read a decent article strongly criticizing that outcome.
Given that you can feed between 5 and 18 times the amount of vegans on the same amount of land depending on crop, the organic farming efficiency could be 30% and food security would not be an issue.

Kram said:
Vegetarianism I can understand, but Veganism..
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Yep, i was a vegetarian for a long long time and had all sorts of arguments for not going to the vegan "extreme". Unfortunately it turns out that dairy and eggs are arguably less ethical than meat, and dairy especially is far from healthy especially in todays mass produced, hormone and antibiotic driven industry.

Here's a 5 min video that neatly sums up why I don't consume dairy. I'd be interested to know if you still consider veganism as an extreme position after watching it.
 
I don't understand why more vegans just don't keep their own chooks for the eggs. That eliminates the cruelty aspect straight away.

My chooks have a great life roaming free and are a key plank in my little chicken/compost/vegie patch permaculture set up.
 
estibador said:
I don't understand why more vegans just don't keep their own chooks for the eggs. That eliminates the cruelty aspect straight away.

My chooks have a great life roaming free and are a key plank in my little chicken/compost/vegie patch permaculture set up.
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I agree it is a far, far superior system. The better nutrition, happier chickens and all round superior. Below are the reasons I choose not to (besides the practicality of living in an apartment building :p)

* Exploitative relationship with an animal... Laying eggs is taxing to a chicken's system and they'll lay more eggs when they're taken away.

* It's an item that is pretty easily replaced, and normalizing consumption of eggs will tend to lead to eating eggs that aren't from humane sources. (most eggs are currently cage farmed)

* Eggs are pretty unhealthy. To the point that the egg industry isn't allowed to advertise them with health claims. They're a big cholesterol contributor and I'm not yet convinced by the studies claiming cholesterol isn't harmful to health. Here's one study linking egg consumption to heart problems
 

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StiffArm said:
* Exploitative relationship with an animal... Laying eggs is taxing to a chicken's system and they'll lay more eggs when they're taken away.
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What is the vegan stance on pets? I don't feel like keeping chooks is any more exploitive than keeping my indoor cat as a pet and not letting her roam the neighborhood as she pleases.

I pretty much eat LCHF so I'm definitely not in the camp of believing eggs are unhealthy.
 
estibador said:
What is the vegan stance on pets? I don't feel like keeping chooks is any more exploitive than keeping my indoor cat as a pet.

I pretty much eat LCHF so I'm definitely not in the camp of believing eggs are unhealthy.
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I'm somewhat ambivalent on pets. My cat came with my girlfriend, we get on. I feed her fish based food. While I've seen healthy vegan cats it isn't natural and I've placed it in the too hard/too expensive basket. In all honesty, I don't have an issue morally with people keeping backyard chooks if they look after them. Don't think it's a horrible existence for them.

Obviously I'm not in the LCHF camp, but any care taken with diet tends to be a significant upgrade on current standard diets.
 
StiffArm said:
* Exploitative relationship with an animal... Laying eggs is taxing to a chicken's system and they'll lay more eggs when they're taken away.
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Sorry but this is absolute rubbish.

The only time you could argue it's a bit 'mean' is when they go broody and you have take their clutch of eggs away and kick them off their nest. I breed them so they do at times get to sit on eggs but if I let everyone sit when and wherever they wanted I'd have 100+ baby chickens running around every summer.
 
Kram said:
Sorry but this is absolute rubbish.

The only time you could argue it's a bit 'mean' is when they go broody and you have take their clutch of eggs away and kick them off their nest. I breed them so they do at times get to sit on eggs but if I let everyone sit when and wherever they wanted I'd have 100+ baby chickens running around every summer.
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You disagreeing doesn't make the argument "absolute rubbish".

I'm not arguing that it is anything like the torture that the majority of egg producing chickens endure worldwide, but sometimes good conditions don't make something right in and of itself.

An allegory (please note I am not comparing these cases, simply the form of argument): Is it morally permissible to keep a sex slave if they're treated really well, maybe only slapped once a month when they act out?

The conditions are important, but not fundamental to the argument of whether the action is right.
 
StiffArm said:
You disagreeing doesn't make the argument "absolute rubbish".

I'm not arguing that it is anything like the torture that the majority of egg producing chickens endure worldwide, but sometimes good conditions don't make something right in and of itself.

An allegory (please note I am not comparing these cases, simply the form of argument): Is it morally permissible to keep a sex slave if they're treated really well, maybe only slapped once a month when they act out?

The conditions are important, but not fundamental to the argument of whether the action is right.
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Sorry but it's but completely ridiculous from people that has obviously know absolutely nothing about looking after chickens. It's attitudes like this that makes other people think vegans are nuts.
 
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Dis gun' be good.

I am veg, and I have not been able to go out for a meal with family or friends for 4+ years without the topic coming up.

Bring it. Ask away.
 
Kram said:
Sorry but it's but completely ridiculous from people that has obviously know absolutely nothing about looking after chickens. It's attitudes like this that makes other people think vegans are nuts.
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That's a massive assumption to make, and in this case you're actually completely wrong. When I was living in Japan I worked on an organic farm for a few months. They also had a few hundred chickens. Owner cared for them as well as she could, they were fed really well including with plenty of fresh scraps and grass cuttings. Conditions right up there.

Still, probably a little too compact for them to completely sort their pecking order, there was some stress and brutality among the chooks. And, much as the owner hated this part, they still all went to the local butcher every couple of years because it isn't economical to keep chickens past their prime years.

Omni's live in this little fantasy world where they like to assume because in the best possible scenario there could be a situation with little to no cruelty, that it happens. Nope, money is involved.
 
StiffArm said:
That's a massive assumption to make, and in this case you're actually completely wrong. When I was living in Japan I worked on an organic farm for a few months. They also had a few hundred chickens. Owner cared for them as well as she could, they were fed really well including with plenty of fresh scraps and grass cuttings. Conditions right up there.

Still, probably a little too compact for them to completely sort their pecking order, there was some stress and brutality among the chooks. And, much as the owner hated this part, they still all went to the local butcher every couple of years because it isn't economical to keep chickens past their prime years.

Omni's live in this little fantasy world where they like to assume because in the best possible scenario there could be a situation with little to no cruelty, that it happens. Nope, money is involved.
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Nice moving of the goal posts

The original point was that the user having chickens that he removed the eggs of, was fine.

You've now moved it to a specific anecdote, about some other person doing something

Then relate it to the industry as a whole

This is called a zoom out response. It's something politicians do a lot.
 

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Let's relate it to the owning of a cat
Your gf treats her cat well, so you don't see it as an issue
But I have a neighbour who once killed a few cats on his property.
And broadly animal cruelty is rampant around the world
Based on this, having a cat as a pet is cruel
 
DemonTim said:
Nice moving of the goal posts

The original point was that the user having chickens that he removed the eggs of, was fine.

You've now moved it to a specific anecdote, about some other person doing something

Then relate it to the industry as a whole

This is called a zoom out response. It's something politicians do a lot.
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I corrected his assumption that I had no experience in egg pilfering, and then pointed out that in any remotely commercial setting there will be cruelty involved, even if that is just killing an animal that doesn't want to die. That directly related to the experiences I had.

To move to your cat example. Having a cat is all well and good. The moment you or your neighbor tries to make money off that cat, perhaps with a kitten farm or by making it dance, yep, it will quickly turn unethical.
 
StiffArm said:
That's a massive assumption to make, and in this case you're actually completely wrong. When I was living in Japan I worked on an organic farm for a few months. They also had a few hundred chickens. Owner cared for them as well as she could, they were fed really well including with plenty of fresh scraps and grass cuttings. Conditions right up there.

Still, probably a little too compact for them to completely sort their pecking order, there was some stress and brutality among the chooks. And, much as the owner hated this part, they still all went to the local butcher every couple of years because it isn't economical to keep chickens past their prime years.

Omni's live in this little fantasy world where they like to assume because in the best possible scenario there could be a situation with little to no cruelty, that it happens. Nope, money is involved.
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Yeah because having a commercial egg farm is really the same as having chooks in your backyard :rolleyes:
 
StiffArm said:
Do you also get to the stage where you just give smart arse non-replies when people ask you why you're veg?
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Yes. Since about day 2. I don't see why it's such a big deal.

I also got in trouble at work because an Indian guy thinks its very funny every single day to ask me if I am eating chicken/beef etc. So I asked him if he was eating Pork. Then I got in trouble. Pfft double standards. He gets to poke fun at my beliefs, but I can't?
 
Van_Power said:
Yes. Since about day 2. I don't see why it's such a big deal.
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I shouldn't be a big deal, until lunatics start doing this.

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StiffArm said:
I corrected his assumption that I had no experience in egg pilfering, and then pointed out that in any remotely commercial setting there will be cruelty involved, even if that is just killing an animal that doesn't want to die. That directly related to the experiences I had.

To move to your cat example. Having a cat is all well and good. The moment you or your neighbor tries to make money off that cat, perhaps with a kitten farm or by making it dance, yep, it will quickly turn unethical.
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The other bloke got the response in one

Zoom out technique in use. You've somehow gone from discussing the ethics behind a person using eggs from their backyard chooks, and moved it to commercial usage. The logic in the relationship is non existent.

He's made his point why it's not unethical, it's also not commercial. So respond to that. Why is what he is doing unethical or harmful?
 
Bazzar said:
Unsolicited "junk" mail going into peoples letterboxes is what's wrong with that.
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Should this not be a general issue you have for all junk mail, letters from real estate agents, plumbers etc looking for work, gutter cleaners etc?

Do you get equally angry at all?
 
Van_Power said:
Should this not be a general issue you have for all junk mail, letters from real estate agents, plumbers etc looking for work, gutter cleaners etc?

Do you get equally angry at all?
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C'mon mate, lets be real here, it's a member of the local community wishing to push their ideology onto everyone who lives around them. It might as well be a referral to the local cinegog, or stating that you're all going to hell if you don't repent for your sins. Same principle. It's harassment.
 
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