Venezuela

[Total Power]

Yer so Norway would be much better off if they sold all thier utilities and gave Gina the oil fields ...

They’d be like us with uncontrollable power prices that the Morrison government is now discussing regulating ... they’d have state governments getting toppled over an east west tunnel.
They’d have FA infrastructure spending massive debts ...

I mean what was Gough thinking ....

I am done with this, man up and admit you are wrong. Outside of energy companies none of your points are/were valid (and even that is invalid as your argument is oil is what made Norway rich). I mean * me, i attended Norwegian Business School (the biggest business school in Norway), for 2 executive sessions and here is someone telling me higher education is entirely public outside of religious schools in Norway. Since you are not going to admit you been wrong all along, i am not going to play along. I have admitted i was wrong about Telenor, you haven't , despite been proven wrong time and time again. It takes a bigger man to admit he is wrong and clear who the bigger man here is.

Here are the tuition fees

https://www.bi.edu/programmes-and-i...s/tuition-fees/tuition-fee-master-of-science/


and this was the higher education i was talking about. Goodbye and good-riddance

 

[nut]

Do a bit of research on hydro power in Norway, just like a bit of research on merchant fleets. When Marx was swimming in his daddy's nuts, Norway had 10% of worlds Merchant fleets. The Hydro power you keep bragging about was entirely private by Norsk Hydro (which was merged with Stattoil in 2006 (?)), just like the merchant fleets and fishing, which were also private. Norway didn't become rich cause of oil, but oil have created bubbles and blown the CPI out of proportion where real estate have become unafforable an average Norwegian. You claim you are born in Norway, a bit of reading will be welcome you know.

Norsk Hydro ???? lol... that company has nothing to do with hydro electricity in Norway since the state took over the rights after 1909... keep digging.

“The Norwegian Parliament, The Storting, responded quickly by issuing laws for concessions and reversionary rights. The latter was passed into law in 1909, and involves that the ownership of the resources passes back to the state when the period of the concession is ended. Thus, The Storting ensured that the Norwegian hydropower resources was to remain on Norwegian hands.”


Norway has prevented Dutch disease better than any other country according to Bloomberg’s https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...cial-this-oil-giant-has-avoided-dutch-disease


How’s Perth’s property prices holding up ?

 

[nut]

I am done with this, man up and admit you are wrong. Outside of energy companies none of your points are/were valid (and even that is invalid as your argument is oil is what made Norway rich). I mean **** me, i attended Norwegian Business School (the biggest business school in Norway), for 2 executive sessions and here is someone telling me higher education is entirely public outside of religious schools in Norway. Since you are not going to admit you been wrong all along, i am not going to play along. I have admitted i was wrong about Telenor, you haven't , despite been proven wrong time and time again. It takes a bigger man to admit he is wrong and clear who the bigger man here is.

Here are the tuition fees

https://www.bi.edu/programmes-and-i...s/tuition-fees/tuition-fee-master-of-science/


and this was the higher education i was talking about. Goodbye and good-riddance

Where did I say oil made Norway rich? I’ve argued in this forum for over ten years that Norway’s taxes and state owned enterprises are the reason they are a rich country with equality.
They recognised early that the needed the state to own its electricity via hydro ...
then they realised they could use its oil reserves to help future generations by starting a sovereign.
Oil has made thier sovereign fund rich.

 

[nut]

I am done with this, man up and admit you are wrong. Outside of energy companies none of your points are/were valid (and even that is invalid as your argument is oil is what made Norway rich). I mean **** me, i attended Norwegian Business School (the biggest business school in Norway), for 2 executive sessions and here is someone telling me higher education is entirely public outside of religious schools in Norway. Since you are not going to admit you been wrong all along, i am not going to play along. I have admitted i was wrong about Telenor, you haven't , despite been proven wrong time and time again. It takes a bigger man to admit he is wrong and clear who the bigger man here is.

Here are the tuition fees

https://www.bi.edu/programmes-and-i...s/tuition-fees/tuition-fee-master-of-science/


and this was the higher education i was talking about. Goodbye and good-riddance

Norway has free higher education ... and no private schools other than religious schools.

So how do I get thus generous goverment loan to attend BI Business school(university) you talk of?? Lol

 

[Total Power]

Where did I say oil made Norway rich? I’ve argued in this forum for over ten years that Norway’s taxes and state owned enterprises are the reason they are a rich country with equality.
.

I really don't wish to reply to you further but you don't read anything and you think repeating lies (just like IB above) will make it true. Energy sector and taxes or even state owned enterprises didn't make norway rich. Norways Merchant fleet made norway rich, was the highest in the world, not in terms of per capita but tonnage followed by double income families which in Europe was an alien concept back then. Ask your mum/grandmother ffs. That led to a boom in fishing, real estate etc. What energy has done is create a massive real estate bubble, probably the biggest in the developed world. Ask a norwegian how unaffordible it is to own a house in Norway now..Australia got nothing on Norway.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...housing-bubble-of-them-all-might-be-norwegian

Hope you have no investments there and if you are really interested in further details about the bubble the government has created, do some more research on household debt in Norway. You will see its even higher than Australia because its ******* unafforable to live there, own a house and maintain a lifestyle, despite have public education free, healthcare at a minimal cost(which to you is socialism LOL). As i said Australia got nothing on Norway, and even Norwegians see this. They are scrambling to ditch old and gas shares from their soverign funds now.

https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm

Alaska has a similar fund with even more money per person in Alaska than Norway's compared to Norway's population. They have no state income taxes and every person in Alaska gets a check every year. Of course you still have to still live in Alaska...These are the owners of Alaksan big oil, it doesn't have to be govt owned to have a social programme and its not socialism, you dont even know what socialism is, please dont talk about socialism anymore. Social programs doesn't not equate to socialism, somehow you think have a basic income or free public education is socialism.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/socialism.asp

https://www.aoga.org/facts-and-figures/who-owns-big-oil

https://www.investopedia.com/articl...e-social-security-benefits-form-socialism.asp

The origins of social security comes from capitalistism, not from Marx or similar.



It's interesting to remember that the U.S. got the idea for a social-security system from 19th century Germany. That very capitalist monarchy launched an old-age social insurance program in 1889 at the behest of Chancellor Otto von Bismarck, partly to stave off radical socialist ideas being floated at the time. The original social security was actually an anti-socialist maneuver by a conservative government.



Somehow to you, this is socialism, you absolutely nothing about economics or what constitutes socialism, i understood that when you said in your book "solidarity=socialism". You are another one living in the fantasy land. Socialism is not black and white, like you think it is, if the poster VineyisLord was still here, he could have educated you better on this.


At the heart of Nodic capitalism still lies basic market forces, less interventions and deregulation. This has been done throughout the industry except energy. Even in transport, its a public-private model. Back in the older days, railways used to be private, but that was shut down. Either way, ferries, buses and other forms of transport are private, not public, they operate under a public-private partnership. I am sure now you have never been there. It's damn obvious. Ever heard of car ferries? are they public or private? Buses are also private mostly. Sheesh! i would have continued this debate if you would have made a single valid point, and you with your "lols" and sniping is fooling no one that you do not know the basics of life in Norway on top of that you are just a liar as well..another time just for you (although i pasted 10 times before)


http://www.expatarrivals.com/europe/norway/oslo/education-and-schools-oslo

Until 2005, private schools were illegal in Norway unless they offered a "religious or pedagogic" alternative to the public school system, which meant that the only private schools were religious (mainly Christian), Waldorf, Montessori or Danielsen schools. Secular international senior schools opened only after the law changed in late 2005, although some of the more established schools have offered international curricula in lower grades for decades.

As far as uni's go, here is a full list of unis in Norway, the private ones charge fees BI being the biggest amongst business schools in Norway for both norwegians and international students.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Norway

So much for being born in Norway, you are fooling nobody.

Enough educating you, i wasted a lot of time yesterday, no longer, you can have the last say, i don't care..if you are ever in Norway, pm me, i would educate you further over a beer (thanks to big oil, even that is too expensive ). As i said i can still handle a difference of opinions here, but not denial and lies, which is why you can say whatever you want, but your lies are for everyone to see. You got your head in sand mate, as i said, get here, i will take you around on my tab. Google can only tell you that much. Cheers

 

[Total Power]

Back on Venezuela, so venezuela is behind the caravans, interesting.

 

[nut]

Hydropower which is privatised produces 99 percent of Norwegian power needs.

wrong 100% government owned

Statoil was partially privatised in 2002 cause the govt couldn't be efficient in oil explorations

Goverment controlled at 67%... doesnt equal privatised

What oil has done to Norway is restrict its governments need for efficiency, allowed inflation and living costs to explode (the most expensive place to live in the world now), taken focus from possible alternative niche productions, and it has legitimized a never ending population increase.

What oil has done is give them a sovereign fund that has protected the country from Dutch disease... every country has property price fluctuations, Norway is no different

When oil eventually ends, Norway will need to reform its internal tax codes cause what it has done is inflate property value to a level where its unaffordable to buy a house there.

The average wage to avarage price of a property is much higher in Australia ... Norway is controlling property prices through regulations and capping borrowing... which is slowing the housing sector ...

After almost eight years of uninterrupted growth, Norway's housing market is cooling sharply, especially in the capital, Oslo. The slowdown can be partly attributed to the implementation of stricter mortgage rules on January 1, 2017, which were focused on restraining house prices in Oslo.""

https://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Norway/Price-History

However, there is also an important cultural principle in Norway that everyone should be taken care of. Solidarity with its people, rich or poor, is in many Norwegians’ minds an important task of the state. I will stress again, however, that this does not mean that THEY are a socialist country. It is simply part of THEIR culture, and it bleeds into policy decisions taken by the state. For example, anyone can get generous loans to get take higher education, regardless of their parents’ background, and health care is affordable (though not free except in certain circumstances, which is a common misconception).

This statement is correct ... except the bit about loans for higher education... its free.. except some private universities... Can you show me where I can apply for those generous loans you talk about?

And lastly when you asked, how does Norway get away with it? it's not getting away with it, everything has a price and the boom will come to an end and the bubbles it has created in the process will pop, it will end badly for them

They are already diversifying and investing in other industries... they actively moving away from oil and into renewable, investing in electric cars etc.. 1 in 3 cars now being sold is electric as an example. They also have that fund with 1 trillion dollars in it that owns almost 2% of the worlds stock market... theyve bought massive amounts of property in London, Tokyo and NY etc...
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/...crown-estate-london-property-2018-3?r=US&IR=T
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...rty-deal-with-tokyo-acquisition-idUSKBN1E111D
https://therealdeal.com/2016/01/08/norges-re-boss-sees-few-good-investments-for-6b-fund/

and you think it will end badly for them?????

You realise that many many Norwegians prefer private schooling or education in another country, just like some prefer private healthcare too? education was an example, i could be a business venture for example.

Private schooling... only existed in 2005 and its religious ... healthcare costs are capped at about $400 AUD per year... thats the most you will ever pay in a callender year, after that its all free. If some people prefer to pay private health care in norway they should use their policy and go visit a shrink

Norway is a Democratic socialist country.... but according to you its more capitalist than the USA... I really need this explained.

 

[smokingjacket]

I cant read through this whole exchange but Scandinavian social-democracy is about more than a market economy. Even accounting for privatisation they have a much higher rate of public ownership of assets, worker representation in companies, state superannuation programs.

 

[Total Power]

I cant read through this whole exchange but Scandinavian social-democracy is about more than a market economy. Even accounting for privatisation they have a much higher rate of public ownership of assets, worker representation in companies, state superannuation programs.

This is wrong, the Danish president slammed Bernie Sanders for call Scandinavia socialist. US is far more socialist than Scandinavia, anyone who has a business there can tell you the government has the power to shut your business down, arrest you without warrant (in several states) at any point of time. Govt intervention in private business' here, rarely happens. Govt interference in the private sector is at a bare minimum. All scandinavian countries rank with the top 30 in the freedom to do business index for this reason, sweden and denmark being top 20. 95% of the industries been deregulated over the past 20 years, latest being communications and IT. Also no minimum wage and absence of collective bargaining (in my sector atleast) means i can pay my employee the wage that is mutually agreed. I have a business in Norway/Sweden, i also have a business in the US, the biggest winner in my US business is the lawfirm i am having on retainer while in Norway, i don't really need a lawyer (although i still have one). The rules are simplified and regulations are straight forward.

What you are saying is pretty much textual knowledge, i am speaking from experience of owning and operating a business. Public ownership of assets are restricted mostly to healthcare, education and natural resources (energy) but, regulations regarding trade and private sector is way less than even Australia.

https://www.investors.com/politics/...-bernie-sanders-to-stop-calling-it-socialist/

While speaking at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, the center-right Danish Prime Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen said he was aware "that some people in the U.S. associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism."

"Therefore," he said, "I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy."

Rasmussen acknowledged that "the Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security to its citizens," but he also noted that it is "a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish."


Look up the history of welfare and socialist security, you will see that the idea of social security was floated as an anti-socialist measure by capitalists. Welfare is not socialism, nowhere near it. It has all the characteristics of a market economy, which is first and foremost, at the heart of the Nordic capitalist model.

Having lived in Sweden for so long, i can speak about the history here. Do not think for a moment that the Swedish Social Democrats did not have the intention to socialize the means of production. However, the plan they put in action did utterly fail in 1976. The less socialist parties won the election in 1976 and put a halt on the socialist utopian dream of creating a democratic Swedish Soviet Union. What the socialist party did manage was to socialize the private income and in return offer healthcare and retirement. All of that is now gradually falling apart. Abut 58% of an average income is going to various taxes in Sweden. And now the Socialist Party want to increase that number significantly to cover the demising tax revenues. Where do you think this is going to end?

 

[nut]

This is wrong, the Danish president slammed Bernie Sanders for call Scandinavia socialist. US is far more socialist than Scandinavia, anyone who has a business there can tell you the government has the power to shut your business down, arrest you without warrant (in several states) at any point of time. Govt intervention in private business' here, rarely happens. Govt interference in the private sector is at a bare minimum. All scandinavian countries rank with the top 30 in the freedom to do business index for this reason, sweden and denmark being top 20. 95% of the industries been deregulated over the past 20 years, latest being communications and IT. Also no minimum wage and absence of collective bargaining (in my sector atleast) means i can pay my employee the wage that is mutually agreed. I have a business in Norway/Sweden, i also have a business in the US, the biggest winner in my US business is the lawfirm i am having on retainer while in Norway, i don't really need a lawyer (although i still have one). The rules are simplified and regulations are straight forward.

What you are saying is pretty much textual knowledge, i am speaking from experience of owning and operating a business. Public ownership of assets are restricted mostly to healthcare, education and natural resources (energy) but, regulations regarding trade and private sector is way less than even Australia.

https://www.investors.com/politics/...-bernie-sanders-to-stop-calling-it-socialist/

While speaking at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, the center-right Danish Prime Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen said he was aware "that some people in the U.S. associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism."

"Therefore," he said, "I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy."

Rasmussen acknowledged that "the Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security to its citizens," but he also noted that it is "a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish."


Look up the history of welfare and socialist security, you will see that the idea of social security was floated as an anti-socialist measure by capitalists. Welfare is not socialism, nowhere near it. It has all the characteristics of a market economy, which is first and foremost, at the heart of the Nordic capitalist model.

Having lived in Sweden for so long, i can speak about the history here. Do not think for a moment that the Swedish Social Democrats did not have the intention to socialize the means of production. However, the plan they put in action did utterly fail in 1976. The less socialist parties won the election in 1976 and put a halt on the socialist utopian dream of creating a democratic Swedish Soviet Union. What the socialist party did manage was to socialize the private income and in return offer healthcare and retirement. All of that is now gradually falling apart. Abut 58% of an average income is going to various taxes in Sweden. And now the Socialist Party want to increase that number significantly to cover the demising tax revenues. Where do you think this is going to end?

Denmark is not f.....ing Norway

 

[Total Power]

Denmark is not f.....ing Norway

I am not talking to you, i am done with you, i quoted the person i am replying to, stop hijacking my posts. He mentioned "scandinavia". Denmark also falls under the "Nordic Model". You really have no clue, go away please.

 

[nut]

I am not talking to you, i am done with you, i quoted the person i am replying to, stop hijacking my posts. He mentioned "scandinavia"

I apologise

 

[Taylor]

Why do you think government is privatising it?

To have more cash to spend to keep the ball rolling a little longer.

 

[Total Power]

To have more cash to spend to keep the ball rolling a little longer.

exactly! the bubbles they have created will end in tears for them, wait for the dominos to fall. Real estate is a massive ticking time bomb there.

 

[nut]

Im starting to get your point re USA compared to the “Nordic model” ..

But I fail to see how you could possible think the USA is more socialist than Norway... obviously we both have complete different views on what the term means.
My definition is state run enterprises that it’s purpose is to make life better for its people ... state health .. state education ... state transport ... state run utilities ... people don’t mind paying tax if they are looked after.
To me that’s democratic socialism .. looking after your neighbour ..
America is a not anything but a corrupt enterprise that cares nothing about its people... but is run by corporations that write the regulations that benefits them.
In Norway the goverment works for the people... not big business.. not the capitalist ...

I’d love to have a beer one day ... we’d probably agree in most things.

 

[Taylor]

Social policies can't work without the capitalist foundation.

 

[medusala]

wrong 100% government owned

Norsk Hydro is privately owned with the govt having a minority stake.

 

[nut]

exactly! the bubbles they have created will end in tears for them, wait for the dominos to fall. Real estate is a massive ticking time bomb there.

Im surprised you don’t see what Norway is doing to deversify it’s evonomy??? You admit it’s easy doing businesses in Norway.. infact as a citizen I can still apply for a business loan whilst living here in Australia.

I find it strange you think privatisation is a good thing??? Do you think Australia could afford the rail and road networks Norway has?
We are getting screwed in Aus... our taxes give us nothing. Makes you wonder where it all goes?

 

[nut]

Norsk Hydro is privately owned with the govt having a minority stake.

And it has nothing to do with Norwegian electricity ... your point ???? Statnett 100% owns Norwegian electricity generation... move along.

 

[its free real estate]

I cant read through this whole exchange but Scandinavian social-democracy is about more than a market economy. Even accounting for privatisation they have a much higher rate of public ownership of assets, worker representation in companies, state superannuation programs.

This is wrong, the Danish president slammed Bernie Sanders for call Scandinavia socialist.

I am not talking to you, i am done with you, i quoted the person i am replying to, stop hijacking my posts. He mentioned "scandinavia". Denmark also falls under the "Nordic Model". You really have no clue, go away please.

He didn't use the word 'socialist' though. I'm amazed you have time to run a business in between these deranged screeds.

 

[Taylor]

I find it strange you think privatisation is a good thing??? Do you think Australia could afford the rail and road networks Norway has?
We are getting screwed in Aus... our taxes give us nothing. Makes you wonder where it all goes?

Norway = 13.76 people per sq Km
Australia = about 3 people per sq km

That goes a long way to explaining it. Norway has a road network that is 93,870km and Australia is 823,217km - that's 877% larger for only 500% more people.

The efficiencies in Australia don't exist.

 

[medusala]

And it has nothing to do with Norwegian electricity ... your point ???? Statnett 100% owns Norwegian electricity generation... move along.

https://www.hydro.com/en/products/energy/our-power-plants/

Hydro is Norway's third largest producer of hydroelectric power. Our production of hydropower is concentrated in four main regions in Norway: Telemark, Røldal-Suldal, Sogn and Vennesla.

 

[Total Power]

He didn't use the word 'socialist' though. I'm amazed you have time to run a business in between these deranged screeds.

What;s up with the personal insults?

 

[medusala]

The efficiencies in Australia don't exist.

He cant grasp the very basic facts of lots of oil divided by a very small population is vastly different to the situation in most other countries including Australia.

 

[its free real estate]

What;s up with the personal insults?

You dismissed smokingjacket's point as unknowledgeable without even reading what he wrote.